• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Hockeytown0001

Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

The Abdelkader salary argument doesnt even make sense anymore.

Nyquist has a higher cap hit than Abdelkader and had two less goals and one more point than him.

Nyquist - $4.75 mill. 17 goals 43 points.

Abdelkader - $4.25 mill 19 goals 42 points.

Tell me again why this is an issue? The only issue I had was the length of term. Oh wait maybe the issue is Abdelkader actually hits his opponents, kills penalties and stands up for his teammates.

Abdelkader also played three minutes more per game too and spent practically all of that time with Z and/or Datsyuk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Abdelkader also played three minutes more per game too and spent practically all of that time with Z and/or Datsyuk.

Z isn't as good anymore so playing with him isn't as awesome as it used to be. Nyquist plays with Tatar who has some of the best possession numbers on the team (better than Zetterberg's) .. Not to mention Nyquist plays against lesser competition more often than not as well.

Additionally Abdelkader's ice time also goes towards penalty killing. About 1.5 minutes per game he plays shorthanded. Something Nyquist doesn't do.

Even with less ice time, Nyquist managed to take more shots on goal over the course of the year. Yet Abdelkader had 4 game winning goals to Nyquist's 3.

No matter how one cuts it. Abdekader makes less money, has about the same points as Nyquist and does more on ice with penalty killing, blocked shots, hits (team leader for hits btw) and fighting.

I'd say for all the things I listed, in terms of money the Red Wings management is getting a bigger bang for their buck with Abdelkader's deal compared to Nyquist's deal at the moment.

Edited by kickazz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yet Nyquist didn't improve and sank to Abbys production. We've got a $4.75 million contract scoring 17 goals and your concern is the guy who scored 19 and does everything else. Didn't you criticise this idea in Mantha's thread? "If a guy scores and doesn't do much else vs someone who can do everything else".

Edited by kickazz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Z isn't as good anymore so playing with him isn't as awesome as it used to be. Nyquist plays with Tatar who has some of the best possession numbers on the team (better than Zetterberg's) .. Not to mention Nyquist plays against lesser competition more often than not as well.

Additionally Abdelkader's ice time also goes towards penalty killing. About 1.5 minutes per game he plays shorthanded. Something Nyquist doesn't do.

Even with less ice time, Nyquist managed to take more shots on goal over the course of the year. Yet Abdelkader had 4 game winning goals to Nyquist's 3.

No matter how one cuts it. Abdekader makes less money, has about the same points as Nyquist and does more on ice with penalty killing, blocked shots, hits (team leader for hits btw) and fighting.

I'd say for all the things I listed, in terms of money the Red Wings management is getting a bigger bang for their buck with Abdelkader's deal compared to Nyquist's deal at the moment.

Abby has spent the better part of five years with Z and/or Datsyuk -- it wasn't like he just got time with them when the decline hit. It comes back to usage. Abby has been forced into a top-six role almost by default. I won't deny that he brings certain elements to the team that no other forward does, but that comes back to management having too many players of the same mold.

In a perfect world, Abby goes to the third line and gets less time at even strength and on the power play. I don't think he is particularly valuable in either of those areas for the minutes he receives. He was -16 and had terrible possession numbers.

Nyquist and Tatar both inexplicably got the short straw from Blashill this past season. Nyquist played 1:30 less per game coming off a year he had 27 goals. Tatar played two minutes less after scoring 29 and HSJ had the nerve to give them failing grades. The Wings couldn't score goals and the response was a top-six that included Abdelkader, Helm, Richards and the ghosts of Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg. If you give Gus Nyquist the proper deployment next season, he's a 30-goal scorer.

Part of the reason the Abby deal is perceived poorly is because Holland has given out so many bad contracts lately and he added to it by giving Abby seven years when he is already 29 years old. There's no way he was going to get seven years on July 1 from some other team. Even if you want to debate the 'bang for the buck' right now, how is that contract going to look when Abby is 36 with the way he plays the game?

Edited by GoWings1905

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW does anyone know when exactly Nyquist's No Movement Clause kicks in? It's 2017 season but does that mean as soon as 2016/17 season is over or does it mean when the 2017 season begins?

I think it is when it begins....plus it's A NTC not a NMC. Best to trade him now before he has control over where he goes.

I am not a fan of paying 20 goal scorers $4M+, but nobody complained when Abby had 5 goals in 3 games to start the season. He signed shortly after that before he went on a huge downturn. But as pointed out, he is far from one dimensional, plus I believe he will be one of our future captains, so that helps with the term of the deal. I take Abby over Nyquist anyday.

Edited by LeftWinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yet Nyquist didn't improve and sank to Abbys production. We've got a $4.75 million contract scoring 17 goals and your concern is the guy who scored 19 and does everything else. Didn't you criticise this idea in Mantha's thread? "If a guy scores and doesn't do much else vs someone who can do everything else".

I like guys like Abdelkader. It's stupid to pay them that much on that long of a deal. Generally the idea of a long contract is to either lock up an elite player or to lower the cap hit for a lesser player. His deal does neither, and he's approaching the age where players like him tend to start breaking down. In three years I think we're going to be seeing him playing 60 Games on the 4th line scoring 8-10 goals, not hitting as much, and soaking up way too much cap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Abby has spent the better part of five years with Z and/or Datsyuk -- it wasn't like he just got time with them when the decline hit. It comes back to usage. Abby has been forced into a top-six role almost by default. I won't deny that he brings certain elements to the team that no other forward does, but that comes back to management having too many players of the same mold.

In a perfect world, Abby goes to the third line and gets less time at even strength and on the power play. I don't think he is particularly valuable in either of those areas for the minutes he receives. He was -16 and had terrible possession numbers.

Nyquist and Tatar both inexplicably got the short straw from Blashill this past season. Nyquist played 1:30 less per game coming off a year he had 27 goals. Tatar played two minutes less after scoring 29 and HSJ had the nerve to give them failing grades. The Wings couldn't score goals and the response was a top-six that included Abdelkader, Helm, Richards and the ghosts of Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg. If you give Gus Nyquist the proper deployment next season, he's a 30-goal scorer.

Part of the reason the Abby deal is perceived poorly is because Holland has given out so many bad contracts lately and he added to it by giving Abby seven years when he is already 29 years old. There's no way he was going to get seven years on July 1 from some other team. Even if you want to debate the 'bang for the buck' right now, how is that contract going to look when Abby is 36 with the way he plays the game?

Abdelkader didn't start playing with Datsyuk and Zetterberg until second half the shortened 2013 season which is after Holmstrom retired in 2012 with Lidstrom. Not 5 years. I could flip it and say that the two years Nyquist produced 28 and 27 goals was on a line with Zetterberg (still weaning off his prime at age 33/34), but failed to produce when put in a situation where he wasn't surrounded by an elite player.

For 1:30 less icetime I don't see how one scores 2/3ds the amount of goals he did the season before (with lesser competition btw). Usage was definitely an issue but Nyquist's regression had more to do with individual decline in my opinion. The reason being that when he was put on Zetterberg's line he still couldn't get much done. I'm not sure if it's a confidence thing or if the league's figured him out. Anyways I'm not jumping the gun and saying we trade him (unless it's for the right deal and if we get Okposo). But he's got to turn it around this coming season since he is making $4.75 mill. I'd assume he'll be getting more responsibility this coming season and the coaching changes should make a difference. So we can reassess at the end of the 2016 season.

Far as Abby is concerned I'm not sure how it will be when he's 36. Likely not good because I myself have stated the long term on the contract isn't smart. But here and now in the present the $4.25 million cap hit seems like it's worked out comparitively to someone else with a similar cap hit (Nyquist).

I like guys like Abdelkader. It's stupid to pay them that much on that long of a deal. Generally the idea of a long contract is to either lock up an elite player or to lower the cap hit for a lesser player. His deal does neither, and he's approaching the age where players like him tend to start breaking down. In three years I think we're going to be seeing him playing 60 Games on the 4th line scoring 8-10 goals, not hitting as much, and soaking up way too much cap.

Fair enough - I had my issue with the length of term as well. But not the caphit. He's earned that for now.

Edited by kickazz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think NMCs usually kick in July 1st before the season they're scheduled for but I'm not 100% sure

I believe you are right. Contract years run July 1 - June 30, so I imagine, for the sake of consistency, every other details like Group IV, NMC, and NTC all start July 1 of the given year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It makes sense to pay $6M and + for Okposo (20 goalso while playing with Tavares).

It makes sense to pay $5M for locker room cancer Radu.

It doesn't makes sense to pay $10M for the second best goalscorer in today'so NHL???

This whole "He played with Tavares" argument is false. Okposo's primary center this season was Neilsen, and he scored more of his points with Neilsen than Tavares. When Okposo played with Neilsen their overall possession numbers improved over when they were apart. The same is true of when he played with Tavares. Tavares improved Okposo's corsi, BUT Okposo improved Tavares' corsi as well. Which shouldn't come as a surprise. When you put guys who compliment each other together the sum tends to be greater than the individual parts.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=932&withagainst=true&season=2015-16&sit=5v5

None of this is new though. This argument has been invalidated just as often as it has been true. Crosby is the best center Kessel ever played with, and Kessel actually scored WAY MORE after they were split up. Likewise, Datsyuk is the best center Hossa ever played with and yet none of Hossa's five most productive seasons were on Datsyuk's wing.

Saying "player X only scored as much as he did because he played with player Y" is only sometimes true, and absolutely isn't in Okposo's case.

Edit: AND Okposo's best points/60 came on Brock Nelson's wing. Not Tavares' OR Neilsen.

Edited by kipwinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Abdelkader didn't start playing with Datsyuk and Zetterberg until second half the shortened 2013 season which is after Holmstrom retired in 2012 with Lidstrom. Not 5 years. I could flip it and say that the two years Nyquist produced 28 and 27 goals was on a line with Zetterberg (still weaning off his prime at age 33/34), but failed to produce when put in a situation where he wasn't surrounded by an elite player.

For 1:30 less icetime I don't see how one scores 2/3ds the amount of goals he did the season before (with lesser competition btw). Usage was definitely an issue but Nyquist's regression had more to do with individual decline in my opinion. The reason being that when he was put on Zetterberg's line he still couldn't get much done. I'm not sure if it's a confidence thing or if the league's figured him out. Anyways I'm not jumping the gun and saying we trade him (unless it's for the right deal and if we get Okposo). But he's got to turn it around this coming season since he is making $4.75 mill. I'd assume he'll be getting more responsibility this coming season and the coaching changes should make a difference. So we can reassess at the end of the 2016 season.

Far as Abby is concerned I'm not sure how it will be when he's 36. Likely not good because I myself have stated the long term on the contract isn't smart. But here and now in the present the $4.25 million cap hit seems like it's worked out comparitively to someone else with a similar cap hit (Nyquist).

Fair enough - I had my issue with the length of term as well. But not the caphit. He's earned that for now.

I disagree with the bolded part -- the drop off in Nyquist's goals was due to the fact the power play was a dumpster fire. He was still producing near the same level at even strength, despite poor usage and compounded by having much less talented players than him get the top-six minutes instead. If Gus doesn't produce getting Helm's or Richards' deployment all season, then I am more inclined to believe the notion that he regressed. It's befuddling though Blashill would decrease the ice time of his top two goal-scorers and then bemoan the fact your team can't score goals.

I just think expectations are the biggest foes of Gus and Tatar right now. They probably aren't the next generation of superstars like when Z and Pavel took over. However, 30-goal scorers in their primes aren't easy to find and with better usage going forward, I believe both will get back to that level. I really hope the Wings aren't thinking of dealing either of them at this point, though I fear that might be the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Khans thoughts on the wings off season

mailbag) Khan doesnt think the Red Wings would be willing to give up the amount of assets to get a defenseman like Dougie Hamilton (Khan doesnt think hell be traded) or Jacob Trouba. Every team would ask the Wings for Dylan Larkin, and they arent moving him.

They need to give their blueline a different look next season. Doubt that Kyle Quincey will be back. They could look to trade Brendan Smith. Xavier Ouellet and Ryan Sproul require waivers next year, so theyll need a roster spot for them or theyll have to trade them.

Could the Red Wings be able to trade for Kevin Shattenkirk without giving up Larkin? Hes the type of player the Red Wings need. Would probably include at least Gustav Nyquist or Tomas Tatar.

Upfront, Andrew Ladd and Troy Brouwer are likely at the top of their free agent wishlist, with Jamie McGinn Plan B or Plan C.

The Ducks have extra defensemen and could be looking to make a move, with Sami Vatanen the most likely to be dealt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shattenkirk is a pipe dream. He isn't available and hasn't been seriously considered as trade bait, has he?

Not really, unless the Blues decide to blow up a championship caliber roster, which they have no reason to do.

But maybe if Holland grows a pair he can get Shatty for Pulks, Sproul, and a fourth rounder. (/s)

Edited by Aethernum

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.