Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Yeah well if the youngins want a spot they have to earn it like Larkin did what's the big deal? Worst case scenario is they play after a huge nosedive or they don't get their chance because everyone is playing better

Because history has shown that 99% of the time the kid loses the roster spot even if he out plays vets.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Ya Larkin was given a shot because how great he played for GR and training camp. Perform like that and Blashill will have no choice. Simple as that

The only time a prospect sat when they were clearly ready to contribute was when Nyquist was forced to play in GR for roster reasons. Poor management but Holland made room for him eventually. In the last 2 years the wings have brought up a lot of guys that became regulars quickly. But then theirs guys like Jurco and Pulkinnen who very clearly haven't earned a job on this team yet and they should be treated as such. It's about creating a competitive environment in the locker room but players have roles. Mantha isn't fighting for the same spot as Miller or Helm

Say what you want about Miller but theirs no way Helm isn't a top 9 forward on this team including all the GR studs that are too good for the AHL

Did Tatar need to play 4 seasons? Pretty sure if I recall people were saying he was more than ready after spending 3 seasons down ... We've always been a pro veteran team , keeping clearly longer than needed, resigning samuelsson

Ouellet was kept down as long as needed , redwings usually always wait till the very end to insert prospects in ... Not that ouellet is a star but I'm sure on a lot teams he'd have played last season

[kliq 3,755]

I'm sorry but that's bs , if mantha gets 2 hat tricks in exhibition games he will be in Grand Rapids ... He's starting there no matter what he does and Ken holland says and if athanasiou is waiver exempt it wouldn't shock me either if everyone is healthy and we make no moves that he starts the year in grand rapids(although I don't think he'll stay too long)

if the wings could they would let mantha and athanasiou stay in Grand Rapids for 4 years rather than just 2 ... It's just the way wings do things

Larkin was just a lucky break for us (that we found top talent at the 15th spot) and like someone mentioned datsyuk was injured which also helped Larkin or he would of stayed down

It's not BS, you can say that as many times as you want. If Mantha comes out in preseason and shows he is one of the best players on the Wings in games AND in practice and does all the little things right, I believe he gets a top 6 role, Miller/Ott get waived, and Jurco becomes a healthy scratch. He plays ok, or good, then yes I think he will be sent down.

Like Kickazz said, last year Larkin made the team because Datsyuk was hurt and he played well, but when Datsyuk came back the Wings had no choice then to keep him. I do believe that when all things are equal, the Wings will choose the vet, but if a kid shows he is clearly better, I believe in 2016 they will choose the kid unless we are talking a really tight roster situation which I dont think we have now given that the ramifications are waiving Miller and or Ott. If the ramifications were waiving Jurco for example, then yes I dont see them doing it either.

In years past maybe things would be different, but this is a much younger team then we have ever had post dead wings era.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Anyone who thinks Mantha or AA has a chance of making the opening night roster barring injuries hasn't been paying attention for the last 7 years

Edited July 19, 2016 by DickieDunn

[LeftWinger 4,949]

It doesn't matter who plays the best in pre-season. Last pre-season Nick Jensen was the best dman during every game he played. Where'd that get him? Yep, and it'll get him waived this year...

[joesuffP 1,746]

I have to admit the defense is kind of a different story. I think management really values size on the backend, at least from their defensive defenseman. If someone came to training camp and was outstanding offensively I think they would be on the fast track to the lineup though. New defense couch could make things interesting? DD, Smith and Marchenko entering their primes it would change the team if they could have breakthrough seasons, then the outlook would be a lot different. Smith especially. It would be such a huge boost if he could become an impact player

[kliq 3,755]

It doesn't matter who plays the best in pre-season. Last pre-season Nick Jensen was the best dman during every game he played. Where'd that get him? Yep, and it'll get him waived this year...

I didn't say who plays the best in pre-season, that is a small sample size that is skewed because its AHL guys and NHL stars are half assing it. What I said was the guys who play best in pre-season AND in practice. I have a very strong feeling that during practice Jensen did not look like he belonged. There has got to be a reason why the guy is 25 and never has played an NHL game. This is a guy Blashill himself has coached and should know exactly how good he is.

He just seems like he is going to be a career AHL'er or fringe NHL player (ie. Lashoff, Andersson, etc.)

[kickazz 5,459]

Well would you look at that. WIIM writes a nice article about exactly what Krsmith and I have said ad nauseum.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.wingingitinmotown.com/platform/amp/2016/7/19/12207888/setting-an-ideal-red-wings-penalty-kill-for-2016-17?client=safari#

Edited July 19, 2016 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

Yeah, that is basically what we've been alluding to, although my lines, pairings and special teams would look a little different (as would pretty much every other persons', including the coaching staff). Speaking of which, like I've said before, I'm really excited to see what Houda can do with the penalty kill unit this season. I'm hoping he continues his ideology of using skilled players that can gain possession of the puck and actually be somewhat of a threat while down a man, rather than players that can't do anything other than chase the puck for the entire shift and block a scattered shot...

In saying that, we all know that Glendening will be in the lineup every single night, and I'm okay with that. I'm also okay with using him on one of the penalty kill units, since I think he is capable of doing (a little) more than just blocking shots. Miller on the other hand, shouldn't be anywhere near this lineup in my opinion... I wouldn't use Kronwall, because we really need to get his minutes down, especially the hard PK minutes. Instead I'd use Smith, unless he's being used on the power-play, which I doubt he will be. Sheahan would be the next guy in line if there's an injury or one of the main four are in the box serving a penalty... Anyway, I'd like to see something like this...

Glendening - Larkin

DeKeyser - Smith

Helm - Athanasiou

Ericsson - Marchenko

[kickazz 5,459]

Not the pairings necessarily that I agree with on WIIM, but the point they drive home is important. Our PK is nothing but garbage shot blocking. We need to change that and make it more of a threat to the opposing team like it once used to be. Doug Houda turned Patrice Bergeron and Marchand into excellent PKers (Marchand has 19 SH goals... jesus). I hope he brings that philosophy here.

Edited July 19, 2016 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Not the pairings necessarily that I agree with on WIIM, but the point they drive home is important. Our PK is nothing but garbage shot blocking. We need to change that and make it more of a threat to the opposing team like it once used to be. Doug Houda turned Patrice Bergeron and Marchand into an excellent PKers (Marchand has 19 SH goals... jesus). I hope he brings that philosophy here.

I think the lack of short handed goals is as much higher a result of the play it safe and don't take risks strategy of Babs and Blash. They need to turn some of these guys loose instead of making them play like robots.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Both are contributing factors. If you don't have skilled players on the penalty kill, you should play it safe. The problem is, we have the skilled players to put on the penalty kill, so that we don't have to play it safe...

Of course, the main objective of a penalty kill, is to... kill the penalty, but being aggressive can lead to much more than a successful penalty kill. Aggressiveness will lead to scoring opportunities going the other way, and on occasion, that will lead to short-handed goals... I just hate the sit-back, passive approach, where all we're trying to do is get in lanes and block shots. Be more aggressive and when an opportunity presents itself, you take it. But in order to do that, you need the right guys on the ice, aka skilled players, not "gritty" players...

[kickazz 5,459]

The PK under Babcock was fine up until 2011 or so. Things started changing to more passive/ "shot block to save a goal" bullcrap once we started transitioning from Datsyuk/Zetterberg to Miller, Eaves, then Glendening. It's fine, we didn't have anyone to fill in for D and Z's role. But now with Larkin, AA, and Helm signed for 5 years, there is absolutely no excuse not to use capable speedy, skilled players on the PK.

One thing I liked about Draper more than Glendening/Miller was not only was Draper a good defensive 3rd/4th liner but the guy knew how to drive offense and often times converted his PK time into offensive opportunities. His 21 shorthanded goals and Selke trophy as a damn 4th liner (unheard of) speaks for itself.

Edited July 19, 2016 by kickazz

[Echolalia 2,961]

The PK under Babcock was fine up until 2011 or so. Things started changing to more passive/ "shot block to save a goal" bullcrap once we started transitioning from Datsyuk/Zetterberg to Miller, Eaves, then Glendening. It's fine, we didn't have anyone to fill in for D and Z's role. But now with Larkin, AA, and Helm signed for 5 years, there is absolutely no excuse not to use capable speedy, skilled players on the PK.

One thing I liked about Draper more than Glendening/Miller was not only was Draper a good defensive 3rd/4th liner but the guy knew how to drive offense and often times converted his PK time into offensive opportunities. His 21 shorthanded goals and Selke trophy as a damn 4th liner (unheard of) speaks for itself.

Despite all the flak he gets (and likely myself too because I'm bringing it up) but Darren Helm was that guy in the first half of his career. He would get short handed breakaways on a regular basis. Might not convert on most of them, but at the very least if you're skating the puck down into the other zone I would call that effective penalty killing. I am 100% on board with Helm getting some more PK time along with some of these younger kids who are a threat to tilt the ice in the opposite direction.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Helm is and has been one of the better penalty killers ever since he entered the league, aside from those couple injury riddled seasons...

When I was doing up my ideal penalty killing units, I was forgetting about Nielsen too. You always need more than 4 or 5 PK forwards anyway, so I'd throw him into the mix along with Sheahan and Abdelkader as well...

[amato 3,210]

Yeah, helm has 9 career short handed goals so far.. With a little luck (and perhaps a Larkin/AA or someone on his PK line), he could finish his career around drapers at least as far as SH goals go anyway.

Edit: source http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/helmda01.html

Edited July 19, 2016 by amato

[krsmith17 7,191]

If Helm finished on half of his short handed opportunities, he would probably be right there with Draper now... But like Echolalia said, even when he's not scoring on all of the opportunities that he creates, he's still amongst the best penalty killers, just by eating valuable time off the clock down in the oppositions end...

[kickazz 5,459]

Despite all the flak he gets (and likely myself too because I'm bringing it up) but Darren Helm was that guy in the first half of his career. He would get short handed breakaways on a regular basis. Might not convert on most of them, but at the very least if you're skating the puck down into the other zone I would call that effective penalty killing. I am 100% on board with Helm getting some more PK time along with some of these younger kids who are a threat to tilt the ice in the opposite direction.

I agree with you. I've been vocal about having issues with his contract/term but Helm is an excellent PKer. By all eyeballs tests and math freaks data he's our best penalty killer. I'm hoping AA, Larkin can take a page out of his book for the PK. People with speed have an incredible advantage in these situations imo.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

He is a good pk player, but that's all, and Blashcock insists on playing him on a scoring line, which causes issues.

[WingedWheel91 271]

I'm not overly excited at the moment - but I have to believe this surplus of forwards is for a greater cause. Such as, trading for Jacob Trouba (which would take Nyquist and Pulkinnen probably) making this roster alot more interesting:

ZETTERBERG - LARKIN - ABDELKADER

TATAR - NIELSEN - VANEK

ANTHANASIOU - SHEAHAN - MANTHA/JURCO

MILLER - HELM - GLENDENNING

DEKEYSER - TROUBA

KRONWALL - GREEN

ERICSSON/SMITH - MARCHENKO

MRAZEK

That team would be the best we've had in a few years.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I agree with everything except it should be Smith - Green and Kronwall - Marchenko. No way should Smith be in rotation with Ericsson... Also if we trade for Trouba, I would think that a defense prospect (Ouellet) would be going the other way...

[Dabura 12,207]

I have to believe this surplus of forwards is for a greater cause.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

I agree with everything except it should be Smith - Green and Kronwall - Marchenko. No way should Smith be in rotation with Ericsson... Also if we trade for Trouba, I would think that a defense prospect (Ouellet) would be going the other way...

Problem is the jets have a crazy amount of good forwards now and coming up and I can't see them wanting nyquist or pulkkinen

We don't want to part with dekeyser but to get trouba we'd probably have to be willing to part with dekeyser and smith/ouellet and a first ... Something like that I'm guessing

I'd consider doing that if the pick were protected and if we could swing a nyquist for fowler type deal ?

Kronwall fowler

Trouba green

Marchenko smith or ouellet

Ericsson/sproul

God if we could only get rid of Ericsson ...

Edited July 20, 2016 by nyqvististhefuture

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

The PK under Babcock was fine up until 2011 or so. Things started changing to more passive/ "shot block to save a goal" bullcrap once we started transitioning from Datsyuk/Zetterberg to Miller, Eaves, then Glendening. It's fine, we didn't have anyone to fill in for D and Z's role. But now with Larkin, AA, and Helm signed for 5 years, there is absolutely no excuse not to use capable speedy, skilled players on the PK.

One thing I liked about Draper more than Glendening/Miller was not only was Draper a good defensive 3rd/4th liner but the guy knew how to drive offense and often times converted his PK time into offensive opportunities. His 21 shorthanded goals and Selke trophy as a damn 4th liner (unheard of) speaks for itself.

We lost Lidstrom and Stuart end of 2012, 2 important Pkers. Everyone's talking about forwards, but we've lacked the D men who fight for the front of the next and can control rebounds so they can clear it. But it's been since 09-10 since we were top 10 in the league for PK percent.

I'm not too worried about the Pk, though. We've been middle of the pack and I think Marchenko and Mrazek will help it get better. Totally agree about skill guys on the PK - If Larkin and AA get time that will help more. I'm more worried about the PP.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I think you quoted the wrong person, I didn't say anything about Nyquist or Pulkkinen there... Although I do think he can be had for a similar package, as long as there's a defenseman going back the other way. You're massively over-valuing Trouba though if you think it would cost near that much... We wouldn't have to give up DeKeyser in order to land him, just like we wouldn't have to give up DeKeyser to land any of the other potential top pair guys rumored to be available...

Winnipeg probably don't want to get rid of Trouba, but they're going to be forced to trade one of Trouba or Meyers before the expansion draft. Byfuglien and Enstrom (NMC's) have to be protected and they can only protect 3 defensemen. If they wanted to protect 4 defensemen, they would then only be able to protect 4 forwards, which I'm sure they're not willing to do...

If we put together a nice enough package centered around Nyquist and add in a defense prospect, and a high pick, I think it could get done. It's a moot point though, since I don't think Holland is even looking at trade options right now...