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Hockeytown0001

Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

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I dont think anyone would care that much if Jurco or Pulk got dealt for peanuts to be honest.

Both of their hypes have been GREATLY dminished

I would absolutely care. These are good young players. Their trade value/"hype" has been "GREATLY diminished" because the Wings are run by assholes.

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See, the biggest source of my frustration is that I do feel he has the necessary pieces -- I just think he lacks the will, desire, creativity, cojones, etc. to actually Get It Done.

It's complacency, risk-aversion, hoarding. It's arrogance. It's laziness. It's outdated, provincial thinking. It's everything, and it continues to result in a whole lot of nothing.

Over the past eleven years, no team has made fewer trades. The Wings' official count is, I believe, 23. The Devils are second from the bottom with something like 50.

Is that confirmed? I've always wondered about that figuring we had to be near the bottom... But to have executed less than half the amount of trades as the 2nd lowest team - that's truly remarkable.

My only optimism about something happening is (1) - Although we've cut good players in the past, I don't remember a year where we had as many NHL ready forwards starting in GR. (2) We just lost our best player and sacrificed Jacob Chychrun to trade away his cap hit. (3) New Arena might = New GM if we head into 2017-18 struggling to sell tickets.

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Because most people look simply at stats to determine value.

Jurco is a 23 year old who has the offensive ability and size to become an impact forward in this league... We forget that in his first 36 NHL games (as a 20 year old) he recorded 8 goals and 7 assists... (82 GP - 18 G - 16 A).

Did he truly regress this much? I don't know that he did.

Worst case scenario is trading him away for nothing and watching him flourish in someone else's top 6.

While I don't necessarily disagree with you regarding Jurco, I think you have to be careful with this argument. The counterfactual makes the argument less plausible. People only ever insinuate "stats don't matter that much" when they're talking about guys who aren't producing. I've never, ever, seen someone argue that stats don't matter that much when I guy is scoring a ton (which is after all the point of the game). Except maybe when it came to Franzen lol.

If stats aren't the only, or even the predominant, way of evaluating a player's worth, then that argument would be just as true for players who produce a lot as those those who don't produce much at all. But nobody ever argues it that way.

I think the jury is still out on Jurco. I think he has all the tools to be a good player. But it's very possible that his first 30 odd games were the exception and not the rule. Truth is, we don't know what kind of a player he is at this point.

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While I don't necessarily disagree with you regarding Jurco, I think you have to be careful with this argument. The counterfactual makes the argument less plausible. People only ever insinuate "stats don't matter that much" when they're talking about guys who aren't producing. I've never, ever, seen someone argue that stats don't matter that much when I guy is scoring a ton (which is after all the point of the game). Except maybe when it came to Franzen lol.

If stats aren't the only, or even the predominant, way of evaluating a player's worth, then that argument would be just as true for players who produce a lot as those those who don't produce much at all. But nobody ever argues it that way.

I think the jury is still out on Jurco. I think he has all the tools to be a good player. But it's very possible that his first 30 odd games were the exception and not the rule. Truth is, we don't know what kind of a player he is at this point.

True Enough.

I just think it's really easy to see his 4G + 2A in 44 GP last year and call him disposable - but not as easy to understand why/how that could be a mis-representation of his value to our organization, or what he could accomplish given an opportunity in the top 6 (a much better fit for his skillset than on a line with Glendenning).

The argument that stats don't matter that much can actually be utilized to the other extreme... Look at a guy like Alex Ovechkin, he is the epitome of elite production yet also the games biggest loser... Is it his fault? Not entirely, but the fact that he can score 51 Goals and somehow end a season -35 (in 2014) indicates he may be part of the problem as much as he is the key ingredient to winning games.

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Ca

Helm is absolutely valuable to this team... but Miller, Ott... not at all.

Agreed, I dont see why the false narrative of "Helm sucks" needs to be brought up in every single thread regardless of the topic being discussed. We literally have a thread for that. Ill say it again, take away E and Howards contracts, and I dont think anyone would even be talking about Helms deal in a negative way.

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I bring it up in this topic. It was a waste of a roster spot and $4M. For 5 years!

Jurco, Pulkkinen, Mantha, AA...they all deserve that roster spot over helm...Miller and ott are pegged for 4th line work, helm snatched valuable 3rd line minutes from more deserving players. Ok, if miller or ott werror not signed, then stick helm on the 4th, but definitely not at $4M. Waste of a 3rd line spot and waaaaaaY overpaid as a 4th liner. He's nothing but a 4th liner, period. PK guy sure, but 4th line pkers don't get $4M, they get $2M. If he's on the 3rd line, he's taking up a spot one of the 4 kids I mentioned.

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You're flat out wrong on Helm. He is not a 4th liner, he is a very good 3rd line center / winger. He may be slightly overpaid, but only by around $500K, and that's certainly not worth all the b****ing you're doing about it...

As of right now he is better in that role than all the players you mentioned, maybe with the exception of Athanasiou. Stop trying to compare Helm with Miller and Ott. They're not even close to being similar in any way, other than the team they play for and the fact that they can kill penalties. But even then there's the difference that Helm is a much better penalty killer...

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I bring it up in this topic. It was a waste of a roster spot and $4M. For 5 years!

Jurco, Pulkkinen, Mantha, AA...they all deserve that roster spot over helm...Miller and ott are pegged for 4th line work, helm snatched valuable 3rd line minutes from more deserving players. Ok, if miller or ott werror not signed, then stick helm on the 4th, but definitely not at $4M. Waste of a 3rd line spot and waaaaaaY overpaid as a 4th liner. He's nothing but a 4th liner, period. PK guy sure, but 4th line pkers don't get $4M, they get $2M. If he's on the 3rd line, he's taking up a spot one of the 4 kids I mentioned.

As someone who's still unhappy with the Helm signing, the bolded portions of this are simply untrue.

I don't like the cap hit, term or way management has utilized him the past few seasons, but come on...

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Ya, he's so far and beyond the best 3rd line center that when he retires, the league is going to retire the #43 from every team.

I give it until December and 98% of his "supporters " will have turned on him. Just like Ericsson, just like Franzen, just like howard, just like Cleary and just like Hudler. You better believe when it happens, I'm just going to sit back and smile! Ya, right!you'll never hear the end of it! Ericsson, right! Franzen, right! Howard, right! Cleary and hudler? Yep, right again!

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There wasn't any real reason to turn on Franzen anyways. He was a beast in his prime and even better in the playoffs. After he got older he was still a very good top six player and is pretty much the exact player we are missing right now

The point is people on this forum will turn on anyone regardless of facts just so it follows their own made up narrative

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I wouldn't say Helm is definitively the best 3rd line center in the league, but I do think he's one of the best (if not the best). The stats are there to prove it. What evidence do you want? I'm not going to compare every 3rd line center in the league, but if you wanted to take the time to do so, I guarantee Helm would stack up quite well with the competition.

Hahaha give it a f***ing rest Lefty. You of all people shouldn't be gloating about being "right". You've got to be one of the worst for trying to pass your personally bias on a player as fact. Once you start to hate on a player (for whatever reason), there's no amount of reasoning or facts that will change your mind. You weren't right on Franzen, or anyone else. In fact, every one of those players are better than you'll ever give them credit for and Helm is no different...

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So you're sure the evidence is there, you just don't have it.

First, TBTLC would actually have to center the third line, which he hasn't done since shortly after Babs dubbed him that. He was an unproductive second line winger until Blash moved him to Glendening's wing last year.

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No, I'm sure he would stack up well with other 3rd line centers because I have compared him with many. What I said was, I don't know exactly how he would rank because I haven't compared his numbers with ALL 3rd line centers... The stats are there, it's up to you if you want to use them. Of course, you're also welcome to rely on the trusty ol' eye ball test as well...

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So you're sure the evidence is there, you just don't have it.

First, TBTLC would actually have to center the third line, which he hasn't done since shortly after Babs dubbed him that. He was an unproductive second line winger until Blash moved him to Glendening's wing last year.

If you need evidence so bad why not Google it yourself? Not everyone on the internet cares about trying to convince random people of what they already know.

This team has had identity and depth issues for a few years now. It is of zero surprise that Helm had to log a lot of top 6 minutes. Despite the fact this team is nowhere near contention, at least now there is enough depth to have actual top six players play in the top six. I'd fully expect to see Helm back on the third line this season. If not, the management of this team will just continue to show incompetence.

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Comparing him as a top 6 winger to third line centers is an apples to oranges comparison. He's so good at center he hasn't been used there in 2 years

He wasn't moved off center because he's wasn't good at it. We've lacked wingers and had a bunch of lower line centers so Helm played wing. To me, his ability to play in many situations is one of his strengths.

Helm's not a top 6 winger. haven't seen anyone argue that.

There was some nice goals from mr. no hands this past year. 3 were GWG (tied for 3rd on the team behind Lark and Abby). Think he would have had a better year if he hadn't had the concussion in training camp which I think accounted for the slump to start the year.

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He wasn't moved off center because he's wasn't good at it. We've lacked wingers and had a bunch of lower line centers so Helm played wing. To me, his ability to play in many situations is one of his strengths.

Helm's not a top 6 winger. haven't seen anyone argue that.

Precisely. Something I've noticed with the Red Wings is we've had really crappy luck where we lack top 2 centers but are filled with bottom 2 centers. Have plenty of top 9 wingers. Our lack of top 2 centers basically forced Zet to switch to Center and maintain the position which means we no longer had a good/elite winger for Datsyuk (ironically Helm became Datsyuk's winger with Tatar when Franzen went down). Helm was switched to Wing because we have too many Sheahans, Anderssons, Ferraros and Glendenings. Basically bottom 2 line centers. And none of those guys can play winger that well. Maybe Sheahan but not really.

This goes hand in hand with my bitching in the other thread about Glendening. We are using players in positions because we are forced to or maybe too stubborn to, rather than being able to use them at their best.

I'd say Helm is our best third line center if given the opportunity again. And I'd rank him as a top third line center in the league. I don't know about being the best in the league. Maybe it's possible.

It could be proven (to an extent)with math freak data but then people would get into the whole "dial-up", "blah blah advanced stats suck, I'm staying ignorant to it" conversation again :)

STILL HATE HIS CONTRACT THO

Edited by kickazz

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I wouldn't say Helm is definitively the best 3rd line center in the league, but I do think he's one of the best (if not the best). The stats are there to prove it. What evidence do you want? I'm not going to compare every 3rd line center in the league, but if you wanted to take the time to do so, I guarantee Helm would stack up quite well with the competition.

Hahaha give it a f***ing rest Lefty. You of all people shouldn't be gloating about being "right". You've got to be one of the worst for trying to pass your personally bias on a player as fact. Once you start to hate on a player (for whatever reason), there's no amount of reasoning or facts that will change your mind. You weren't right on Franzen, or anyone else. In fact, every one of those players are better than you'll ever give them credit for and Helm is no different...

Yep, because I always supported Hudler and Cleary and Franzen and Howard. You can go back for about two years now and see my dislike for Helm. Especially when they try to play him top 6. But it's fine, I know what my opinions have been for all these bums for a long time. You may not have been around, but my Hudler hate was well known and well...ahem...warned about... :huh: as well has Franzen.

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Ya, he's so far and beyond the best 3rd line center that when he retires, the league is going to retire the #43 from every team.

I give it until December and 98% of his "supporters " will have turned on him. Just like Ericsson, just like Franzen, just like howard, just like Cleary and just like Hudler. You better believe when it happens, I'm just going to sit back and smile! Ya, right!you'll never hear the end of it! Ericsson, right! Franzen, right! Howard, right! Cleary and hudler? Yep, right again!

So you would rather be "right" and Helm sucks, then be "wrong" and have Helm light it up this year? Way to be a fan.

We all get it, you don't like Helm, but we don't have to have this debate in every active thread. Its getting Bill/Miller like.

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