Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

[krsmith17 7,191]

Great vid PVD. I especially enjoyed the two against the Habs, the following one against the Ducks, and the one at the end against the Bolts. Vintage "No-Hand-Helm" right there... Of course some would argue the ONE where "Datsyuk had to shoot it off his a** in OT against the Rangers" was vintage Helm, but I enjoyed that one as well. Go hard to the net and good things happen. Helm does that very well.

Lefty, you were NOT right about Franzen. The guy was an absolute beast and as many have mentioned, he is the exact type of player we've been missing these past few seasons. But you will remain ignorant, and continue saying how much he sucked right? And how it's a blessing he's on LTIR?

I was never a big fan of Hudler either and I was happy to see him go. I'm sure there are countless others as well, so don't act as if you were the only one saying he "sucks". Ericsson is another example of a player that constantly gets s*** on that isn't half as bad as he's made out to be. He is a solid bottom pairing guy, the problem is, he's a little overpaid. I don't know why I'm wasting my time though, talking to you about Franzen, Ericsson, Nyquist, Helm (he's not Swedish by the way...) is like talking to a wall. You're never going to change your mind on any of these players, even if they all became Norris, Hart, Selke candidates. But not only would you not change your mind if that happened, you're actually hoping it doesn't happen, so you wouldn't have to admit you were wrong... like you'd do that anyway right?...

[LeftWinger 4,959]

Not going to revisit my view of "The Choice" and how much I hated it once Hossa left for Chicago.

I was most certainly in the vast minority when it came to Hudler hate, so I may not have been the only one persay, but I never liked him, and them when he came back from KHL, and he proved how bad he was, 99% of the people here started jumping all over him.

It's whatever, I've always felt Helm was a 4th liner, and as long as he was getting paid like one, and not being put in the top 6 like last year, I really had no huge issue with him, but now? 5 years, $3.8M, the fact that he is directly responsible for mantha and AA having to start in GR, its a waste of a roster spot, and a waste of valuable cap space. Now if Miller and Ott weren't signed and Helm was given $2M to be 4th line, that would be fine. But its not the case, so now when he is making so much money and missing the net 99 out of a 100 times and only scoring 10 goals, thats a problem.

I have said, I would rather none of the 3 be signed, but at least the other two will be playing where they belong, not demanding to be top 9 and getting paid like it, but only performing like a bottom 3 guy...its simple. But that is fine, we'll see how he's used and how he plays. He could break out and become a 20-25 goal scorer, but I'm almost 100% positive he won't....just like (before the head problems) 2008 Franzen never "showed back up" after his "major contract." Never...

if I had a dollar for everyone who said "when 2008 Franzen shows up" or "playoff Franzen" since 2010, I'd have as much money as he does!

[krsmith17 7,191]

Very knowledgeable post wall... Like I said a few posts back, you couldn't be more wrong on your assessment of Helm, but keep trying to claim that he's a 4th liner... All the stats say otherwise, but f*** that nonsense right? Player bias and personal opinion outweighs any stats...

[Dabura 12,207]

Zetterberg could be one of the better 3rd-line centermen in the league. We could roll Larkin-Nielsen-Zetterberg-Sheahan down the middle. But that won't happen. Because Red Wings.

[Datsyukian-Deke 722]

Zetterberg could be one of the better 3rd-line centermen in the league. We could roll Larkin-Nielsen-Zetterberg-Sheahan down the middle. But that won't happen. Because Red Wings.

Yea I hate seeing projected lines with him on the top line. He would be much more effective on the 2nd line. He isn't a top guy anymore. Slotting him lower could prolong his career as well.

[Nyquistfan14 489]

Zetterberg could be one of the better 3rd-line centermen in the league. We could roll Larkin-Nielsen-Zetterberg-Sheahan down the middle. But that won't happen. Because Red Wings.

Wouldn't even hate Z as a third line winger playing with 2 young guys in AA and Mantha.

I would love for the center ice to be Larkin-Nielsen-AA- glendening.

Abby- Larkin- Tatar

Vanek- Nielsen- Nyquist (off wings)

Z- AA- Mantha

Helm- Glenny- sheahan

That would be my ideal lineup if there's no changes. Say Tatar is traded I would like Mantha up into his spot and jurco in Mantha spot

[Jesusberg 1,256]

Someone's already mentioned it, but he's basically been used as a top-six winger out of necessity. It's a combination of his possession numbers, speed and puck-retrieving skills, as well as a lack of "qualified" candidates on the roster.

The strongest argument against Helm as a high-end third-line center is his offensive production (or lack thereof), but even then he still ranked in the top 235 forwards (playing > = 20 games) when he played as a center from 2010-11 to 2013-14. He scored at a .39, .38 and .48 clip in three seasons (he only played in one game during the 2012-13 season). Even if you want to look at that 2013-14 season as an anomaly, scoring at a rate of .38 P/GP is still good enough for a third-line player (though, it's a bit on the low end).

Factor in his productive possession during those years (he ranked somewhere between a third/second-line center), and he steadily improved each season from 2010-11 to 2013-14.

Hell, use the eye test if you like. Yes, we all see his missed opportunities on breakways. Can anyone honestly say they don't notice Helm's speed, ability to retrieve the puck and effort on the ice, too?

My biggest gripe with Helm over the past number of years has been the way management has decided to utilized him. Playing with Pavel and Tatar, his possession spiked, but his offensive production didn't jump enough (.44 P/GP) to merit using him as a top-six winger. He basically produced the same numbers as a 3C. At the end of the day positive possession is great, but you still want it to translate into actual results (or better results, in this case).

Despite my thoughts on him as a top-six winger, just about any way you want to measure his value (during his time at the position), Darren Helm is a solid third-line center.

Edit: And by all means, if someone here is better with numbers or wants to shed some light on a mistake, feel free to jump in. This is just my interpretation when looking at his value using different tools/perspectives.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Jesusberg

[LeftWinger 4,959]

Wonder what it would cost to trade for Kucherov?

[Crashnburnluder 385]

Wonder what it would cost to trade for Kucherov?

Start with Larkin and keep on adding... And I mean guys like Mantha,dekseyser, AA, and 1st... Not all together but Larkin doesn't get Kuch, and the adds have to be more then "well he played good for 30 games...

[krsmith17 7,191]

Talk about massively over rating a player... Kucherov is a very good young player that any team would love to have, but there's no way he would cost near that much... Larkin alone would be over payment and you're talking about adding more pieceS like top prospects, our best defenseman, and a first round pick...

Kucherov is 3 years older than Larkin. In Kucherov's rookie year he put up 18 points (9 goals, 9 assist) in 52 games (0.35 pts/g). In Larkin's rookie year he put up 45 points (23 goals, 22 assists) in 80 games (0.56 pts/g). Kucherov is a 65 point player, after Larkin's rookie year, I think it's a fair bet he will be similar (or more) productive player in the next couple years...

[LeftWinger 4,959]

I thought that sounded a bit rich...but I over value our players all the time.

[Jacksoni 418]

Not sure what Nikita Kucherov would cost. Probably a lot. I'm not posting for bartering purposes. Rather, what I saw from Kucherov this postseason was elite excellence. He was the most effective scorer I've seen in quite a while. His ability to score almost instantly when he receives the puck puts him in a very small group of snipers. And he does it in full speed. That puts up "potential HoF" flags for me.

He's a player I will be following closely next season.

[Dabura 12,207]

Start with Larkin and keep on adding... And I mean guys like Mantha,dekseyser, AA, and 1st... Not all together but Larkin doesn't get Kuch, and the adds have to be more then "well he played good for 30 games...

This isn't Ovechkin we're talking about.

Larkin would get you Kucherov. Yzerman would pull that trigger in a heartbeat. Stamkos, Johnson, Larkin, Filppula as your four horsemen centermen? Uh, yes plz.

[WingedWheel91 271]

Well see how Larkin progresses next year - but as of right now, Kucherov sadly would be our best player.

[LeftWinger 4,959]

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2016/07/red_wings_petr_mrazek_far_apar.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

....FAR APART.... sure glad we wasted money on a useless Helm that could've gone to signing our goaltender if the future...but that's ok Holland, he got Helm for $4M for 5 yrs and you can just go with Howard. God Damn this Helm signing is going to destroy the future of this team!

Jurco, Pulkkinen, Mantha, AA, Mrazek all should be signed and on this team, but nope we got Helm. Maybe he should insure those stone hands that are worth so much, including the future of this team!

If Mrazek gets f***ed on this contract, he will be jaded and leave this team as soon as he can. Holland is ******* this fanbase and future once again with his loyalty to f***tards!

"Hey Petr, your our future, you are probably the most important part of our future, here's $2.75M. We'd offer you more, but you understand, kids don't get $5M, plus We gave Helm $4M because he is a fast 4th line checker with no scoring ability. You understand, right? Oh, btw, we still have Howard of this is an issue."

Edited July 25, 2016 by LeftWinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

No question he would be our best player, but he's not worth anywhere close to Larkin plus top prospects / picks...

Yup, if we didn't sign Helm to that s***ty contract, all 4 of Jurco, Pulkkinen, Athanasiou and Mantha would be in the lineup. Damn Helm for taking up 4 roster spots...

The Helm signing is not going to affect Mrazek or DeKeyser's contract in any way. But hey, keep trying to spin everything with your absurd Helm hate...

[LeftWinger 4,959]

If Helm wasn't paid $4M there would be more money available to offer Mrazek. Period, simple. That signing directly affected this negotiation. But hey, we sure got a fast 4th liner who will get top minutes because he gets top 6 money for 13th forward stats. Screw the future, we have Darren ******* Helm! That's the Juck ******* pott right there!

Screw AA, screw Mantha, screw Jurco and Pulkkinen, f*** our future for Helm! Oh and Howard can always be our #1. Darren and Jimmy, plan the parade!

No question he would be our best player, but he's not worth anywhere close to Larkin plus top prospects / picks...

Yup, if we didn't sign Helm to that s***ty contract, all 4 of Jurco, Pulkkinen, Athanasiou and Mantha would be in the lineup. Damn Helm for taking up 4 roster spots...

The Helm signing is not going to affect Mrazek or DeKeyser's contract in any way. But hey, keep trying to spin everything with your absurd Helm hate...

Nyquist was a wasted signing and Helm is too! That's $9M and two roster spots that can help our future...but hey, let's settle for bad to mediocre.

Edited July 25, 2016 by LeftWinger

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2016/07/red_wings_petr_mrazek_far_apar.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

....FAR APART.... sure glad we wasted money on a useless Helm that could've gone to signing our goaltender if the future...but that's ok Holland, he got Helm for $4M for 5 yrs and you can just go with Howard. God Damn this Helm signing is going to destroy the future of this team!

Jurco, Pulkkinen, Mantha, AA, Mrazek all should be signed and on this team, but nope we got Helm. Maybe he should insure those stone hands that are worth so much, including the future of this team!

If Mrazek gets f***ed on this contract, he will be jaded and leave this team as soon as he can. Holland isf****** this fanbase and future once again with his loyalty to f***tards!

"Hey Petr, your our future, you are probably the most important part of our future, here's $2.75M. We'd offer you more, but you understand, kids don't get $5M, plus We gave Helm $4M because he is a fast 4th line checker with no scoring ability. You understand, right? Oh, btw, we still have Howard of this is an issue."

Isn't that the point of arbitration though? Mrazek thinks he's worth x amount, Holland thinks x amount then they meet somewhere in the middle.

If my boss asked me what I'm worth, I would start high as well my boss would obviously start on the lower end. Just how business works, there won't be hard feelings because of it.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Yeah, it sucks we're going to lose these guys because of the Helm signing...

Stop being so f***ing over dramatic... Both DeKeyser and Mrazek will be signed, likely before their arbitration hearings, and Helm's contract will not effect it in any way, shape, or form...

[LeftWinger 4,959]

But it just goes to show where Holland stands. Instead of putting the value and focus on the future, he puts it in helm. Mrazek will not forget this.

[kliq 3,755]

If Helm wasn't paid $4M there would be more money available to offer Mrazek. Period, simple. That signing directly affected this negotiation. But hey, we sure got a fast 4th liner who will get top minutes because he gets top 6 money for 13th forward stats. Screw the future, we have Darren f****** Helm! That's the Juckf****** pott right there!

Screw AA, screw Mantha, screw Jurco and Pulkkinen, f*** our future for Helm! Oh and Howard can always be our #1. Darren and Jimmy, plan the parade!

Nyquist was a wasted signing and Helm is too! That's $9M and two roster spots that can help our future...but hey, let's settle for bad to mediocre.

Man, talk about being over the top, everything is the 6 degrees of Darren Helm with you. Its like now that Franzen is done you need a new whipping boy for everything. Mrazek being offered what he is being offered is not because of Helm, it's because of his collapse mid season. You dont give 5mil to a guy that was bailed out by his backup. I would have to imagine that even if Helm walked these offers would be no different.

But it just goes to show where Holland stands. Instead of putting the value and focus on the future, he puts it in helm. Mrazek will not forget this.

An offer in a negotiation? You make it sound like Holland slept with his wife, seriously relax.

[kickazz 5,459]

Mrazek will not forget this.

Mrazek will because he's not insecure. But you won't forget lol.

Edited July 25, 2016 by kickazz

[NerveDamage 4,176]

"One of the big differences between negotiations with DeKeyser and Mrazek, according to Holland, is there are more players who can be compared to DeKeyser in order to set a market price.

DeKeyser has been in the NHL for three full seasons while last year was the 24-year-old Mrazek's first full NHL campaign."

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2016/07/red_wings_expect_to_sign_danny.html#incart_river_inde

Let's give 5, no 6 mill to a second year goalie... In that sense how much will Penguin's Murray be asking for when his contract is due?

[Datsyukian-Deke 722]

People need to settle down. If they go to arbitration my guess is they settle for 3.5-3.8 mill for 2 years. I can live with that and I think both sides will be happy. If we had the money still that we gave to helm and paid him 5-6 mill a year, this site would have had a meltdown also. Let it play out.

[LeftWinger 4,959]

Ok, my point is, Helm was not needed. If he walked we wouldn't have lost anything by inserting Jurco into that spot. Now, because Holland is an idiot, someone we do need gets an offer that is embarrassing to say the least. Holland should be focusing more on the future than signing players like Helm and miller. Both VERY replaceable with kids that are ready.

If Mrazek gets jaded by Holland, like most FA's are now, he will not want to be here and as soon as he can leave, he will. Then there goes our future because we're stuck with over inflated contracts.

Mrazek will because he's not insecure. But you won't forget lol.

Never! Especially if he leaves UFA when able. But hey, let's waste more money on undeserving players...