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Hockeytown0001

Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

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Nielsen and Vanek are here to play. They are legit top 6 guys who can and will make our team better and harder to beat. Hopefully when Mrazek gets his contract he finds a way to rekindle that vezina couple of months. If Holland manages to upgrade our D, this team will be better than last year. I'd also love to see AA and Mantha play, but they aren't 4th liners and there really isn't any room in the top 9 for them bArring a trade of one or two forwards from the nhl roster...

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It's obvious that a trade has to happen, Holland himself has admitted it. The problem is it's hard.

Holland has never truly admitted that a trade has to happen. He's been saying the same "Y'know, we'd like to make a trade, BUT..." crap since Rafalski retired.

The problem is not that trading is hard. The problem is, in a word, Holland. He doesn't do impact trades. He doesn't have any real interest in shaking things up.

Again I say:

  • The Wings have made less than 25 trades since 2005.
  • That's far and away the fewest of any team.
  • The Devils are second from the bottom with 50 trades.

Ken Holland does not care about solving real problems and making meaningful changes and meaningful improvements and icing a truly solid team. Ken Holland cares about maintaining the status quo.

I'd also love to see AA and Mantha play, but they aren't 4th liners and there really isn't any room in the top 9 for them bArring a trade of one or two forwards from the nhl roster...

AA and Mantha could be fourth-liners. We could roll four scoring lines.

But, instead, our fourth line is going to be Miller-Glendening-Ott.

Because the Wings are run by assholes.

Edited by Dabura

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Holland has never truly admitted that a trade has to happen. He's been saying the same "Y'know, we'd like to make a trade, BUT..." crap since Rafalski retired.

The problem is not that trading is hard. The problem is, in a word, Holland. He doesn't do impact trades. He doesn't have any real interest in shaking things up.

Again I say:

  • The Wings have made less than 25 trades since 2005.
  • That's far and away the fewest of any team.
  • The Devils are second from the bottom with 50 trades.

Ken Holland does not care about solving real problems and making meaningful changes and meaningful improvements and icing a truly solid team. Ken Holland cares about maintaining the status quo.

AA and Mantha could be fourth-liners. We could roll four scoring lines.

But, instead, our fourth line is going to be Miller-Glendening-Ott.

Because the Wings are run by assholes.

Completely agree. AA and Mantha should be no brainers this year...any time spent in the minors shows we have a GM that can't manage or discern talent. Having a glut of forwards to the point talent is being stifled is getting ridiculous. Package 2-3 guys you know are going to be trapped in the minors and trade for a defenseman that can make a difference. Same damn problem every year...a signing of guys who don't matter, talent being forced to lower levels and a defense that is pathetic. Don't care if its overpayment we need a defenseman worth a damn to pair with DeKeyser. How can the guys in charge not see this...its like groundhog day every damn year with this GM.

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Could you imagine 4 scoring lines? Sheesh, no one could match all 4 lines! It would also keep minutes down on older players.

Imagine:

Zetterberg-Larkin-Abby

Tatar-Nielsen-Vanek

JURCO-AA-MANTHA

Nyquist-Helm-Sheahan

No one knows who's #1 or #12....

Miller/Glenny/Ott would get in for injuries or slumping players that need a rest.

Edited by LeftWinger

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I just disagree with the narrative I've seen around that Helm, Glendening are blocking the kids. They're 29 and 27 - I think they're good pieces and they can be part of a contending team in a few years. I think Miller, Ott, Vanek, are signings that won't be part of that future and take roster spots away from Jurco, Pulkkinen Mantha(should start in GR)

I do think E is a longterm contract that has blocked some worthy young players.

But see that's exactly it. Years ago when we signed Ericsson, nobody was talking about his contract blocking worthy young players. It's only now in hindsight after he's turned out to be a "Bust" (really I think he's a fine 3rd pair guy but that's my opinion). When he originally signed his extension at the age of 29 or whatever it was I was thinking exactly like you are about Helm and Glendening.

And both of those guys have signed similar contracts as Ericsson (long term although not as long I guess). You would think that Holland would err on the side of caution after the Ericsson contract. Especially because the team has been continuing to decline. But instead he ended up re-signing the same guys that are a part of a declining team. Which I guess isn't too bad. But long term? Why not wait until next May to extend Glendening. Why hand a 4 year extension now? I personally think Holland is in a bit of a panic with the way things are going in the league and UFAs becoming harder to come by. Detroit is no longer a free agent destination it once was and Holland may be trying to protect what he's got. In the end this could work for his favor or it might not. It's risky management. If it works, then props.

Anyways like you said, Ericsson is blocking some worthy young players. Except that he is only now blocking them. 2-3 years from now that could be Helm and Glendening blocking other worthy young players. And Frans Nielsen too. I was against 6 years for his contract. But that was inevitable. he was a 32 y/o free agent and we needed a 1st/2nd line center desperately and Larkin would not have been good enough for it yet.

Edited by kickazz

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Nielsen is a second line center when we needed a top line center. Vanek is coming off his worst full season of his career. They don't make the team a contender. Helm is a checking player who has been treated like a 20+ goal guy for two years. His contract doesn't help the team win the Cup. I don't want to be the late 90s Blackhawks or early 00s Blues doing whatever it takes to keep a playoff streak alive at the cost of extending the time between being a real contender.

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I don't mind the streak being kept alive. I'm just concerned that they may have a few more contracts in their hands that might be hard to deal with if needed. We're locking up. And there's literally no going back in today's hockey once you've locked people up.

Unless you're the Maple Leafs.

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But see that's exactly it. Years ago when we signed Ericsson, nobody was talking about his contract blocking worthy young players. It's only now in hindsight after he's turned out to be a "Bust" (really I think he's a fine 3rd pair guy but that's my opinion). When he originally signed his extension at the age of 29 or whatever it was I was thinking exactly like you are about Helm and Glendening.

And both of those guys have signed similar contracts as Ericsson (long term although not as long I guess). You would think that Holland would err on the side of caution after the Ericsson contract. Especially because the team has been continuing to decline. But instead he ended up re-signing the same guys that are a part of a declining team. Which I guess isn't too bad. But long term? Why not wait until next May to extend Glendening. Why hand a 4 year extension now? I personally think Holland is in a bit of a panic with the way things are going in the league and UFAs becoming harder to come by. Detroit is no longer a free agent destination it once was and Holland may be trying to protect what he's got. In the end this could work for his favor or it might not. It's risky management. If it works, then props.

Anyways like you said, Ericsson is blocking some worthy young players. Except that he is only now blocking them. 2-3 years from now that could be Helm and Glendening blocking other worthy young players. And Frans Nielsen too. I was against 6 years for his contract. But that was inevitable. he was a 32 y/o free agent and we needed a 1st/2nd line center desperately and Larkin would not have been good enough for it yet.

I think it's always a different situation with D compared to forwards. There's only 6 that play regularly so if one contract ends up being bad it really gets in the way of the future. The worthy players that E is blocking are Sproul and Jensen (XO will get in with injuries). Are they better than E? I don't know. They could have actually gotten a shot if we'd spread out the call up so if you look at it that way they weren't even blocked by a player - just management deemed them not worthy.

Also, 1.8 vs. E's 4.25 are totally different. I remember when was signed people that it was a figure based on potential. I think we know what we're getting with Glendening (and Helm) and 5 more years of that seems likely from a 27 year old.

But anyway, I just can't imagine us saying in 2-3 years "our team would be so much better if we had ------ from GR on the 4th line, if only we hadn't signed Glendening." I mean, who is this 4th line center we have that's 3 years from the NHL? They would already be drafted by now. Turgeon or Ehn maybe, but they'll be other spots on the 4th line (both MIller and Ott gone next year) so prospects can go there. If they're even better than Glen at faceoffs than we move him to wing. We were fishing for a good 4th line center for a while with Emmerton and Andersson etc. Why not sign the best one of the bunch? Why keep fishing? 4 years is not even long term in my mind. And 1.8 is only slightly high. Miller's previous deal was 1.35 and no one complained. At the same time we had Eaves for 1.2 on the 4th line. Draper's caphit was as high as 2.128 as our 4th line center.

I think it's always smart to do extensions before the player has the option of testing the free market and coming back with a high offer to throw in your face. Plus. Glendening at 27 and in his 4th year is probably going to be better as he's developing and I think the improved coaching staff will help his numbers this year.

I'm trying not to turn against that Nielson deal. It's seems the most likely to get in the way to me. Helm moves around so I think he take different roles as Mantha and Svech come into the picture.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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My biggest problem with the Glendening signing is that 4th line centers of his caliber (decent speed, good on faceoffs, no offensive ability) are a dime a dozen. You shouldn't have to overpay on term or cap hit for a mediocre to bad 4th line center, and we did on both in my opinion. Yes I think Turgeon will be a better option in a few years, but let's see how his first year of pro goes first. That brings me to the next issue I have with the signing. We still had another full season to get this deal done, so why not wait to see how Glendening does this season? I highly doubt his play would demand higher than he's currently getting. We could also see how Turgeon does in his first year in Grand Rapids, as well as another season for Nosek, or even Holmstrom or Ehn overseas...

The Vanek signing was low risk, high reward, but that's the type of signing you make if you're trying to contend for the Cup, not a team that is trying to "rebuild on the fly"... You don't sign a veteran like Vanek when any number of players that will likely be sitting or playing in Grand Rapids could replace him. Jurco and / or Pulkkinen (once healthy) will likely be sitting again, and I'd prefer either of them over Vanek. I'd MUCH rather Mantha over Vanek, and hell, I'd even prefer play Frk over Vanek... I just think this was one of the not so obvious very bad signings this offseason. Not because I think Vanek will be bad, I think he could potentially be decent to good, but I'd much rather one of the kids have the chance to be decent to good... The kids are the future, Vanek is not.

The Miller and Ott signings are the very obvious very bad signings. Not because I want Bertuzzi in the lineup, I'd prefer he spend at least one more year in Grand Rapids anyway. But if these guys are going to sit as they should (but doubt they will), I'd rather have Callahan or Frk or even Pulkkinen as our 13th / 14th forwards over those two scrubs...

Although I think both Nielsen and Helm were slightly overpaid on term and / or cap, I think both players are key to this team's success. We could not go into the season with Zetterberg and Larkin as our top 2 centers. Zetterberg needs his minutes and responsibility reduced and Larkin isn't quite ready to be a true number one center yet. I do think he will be okay sharing duty with Nielsen as a 1A / 1B type situation though. Helm is a great bottom 6 center (or winger), and is one of the most effective penalty killers in the entire league. These are probably the two most scrutinized Holland signings this summer, but also in my opinion the two best. They're certainly the two best players that we signed / re-signed (yes I think Helm is better than Vanek "in his role") and in order to lock any quality player up in free agency these days, you're going to have to overpay...

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Are the Red Wings the ‘new Canucks’?

If Danny DeKeyser is worth six years, $30 million (i.e. $5 million per year), then I guess next year when Brent Burns’ contract comes up he’ll sign for 10 years at $500 million ($50 million per year). That’s the only way to properly pro-rate the DeKeyser contract.

Do you want to know why there is a lockout every time the CBA expires? This is why.

I was called out by a reader a number of weeks ago when I was caught saying about Matt Martin “he’s only overpaid by $500k”. And the reader was absolutely correct. And that just exemplifies the way all of us think! A player who is worth $1.2 million signs for $1.6 million and we don’t blink an eye. But someone worth $4.7 million signs for $5.6 million and we all go ballistic. I think DeKeyser is worth $3.25 million per season. This $5 million is way, way, way high. And I don’t care if the Wings bought out four years of his unrestricted free agency. I’d let him walk. Sign him for one year at $3.25 million, and then let him walk away next summer. The cost of this deal goes deeper than the mere $5 million. The Red Wings are way over the cap and trading Jimmy Howard won’t fix that (they still have to sign Petr Mrazek – who probably deserves that $5 million more than DeKeyser does, though I peg his value at about $4 million).

Do you know what I am starting to compare the Red Wings to? The Vancouver Canucks of three years ago (and look at them now). Now that was a team that was overpaying players $500,000 here, $1 million there. Times 23 players. It adds up. I still respect GM Ken Holland’s legacy, but he’s not adapting to the new reality. The old reality was – they have Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom. With that core you can slightly overpay the supporting cast (Kronwall, Draper, Holmstrom, Franzen, etc.) and you’ll have a competitive team. But here is the difference between then and now: then you had three Hall-of-Famers. These are A+ superstars. But now you have “potentially” B+ stars, but at the moment they’re just C+. Tomas Tatar is no Zetterberg. Zetterberg is no Zetterberg (anymore). Gustav Nyquist is no Datsyuk. Neither is Dylan Larkin. And DeKeyser is no Lidstrom. If you overpay the supporting cast around this new ‘lesser’ core, you’ll run your team into the ground.

GMs need to be reminded that it’s okay to say no once in a while and just walk away from a player. Even over $500,000.

Tampa Bay signed Vladislav Namestnikov to a two-year deal according to Craig Custance. The deal is worth $3.875 million (or just over $1.9 per season). In other words, if Detroit signed him it would be $4.5 million. That’s how I think I’ll discuss new contracts from now on: by providing the currency exchange in ‘Detroit dollars’. Anyway, I haven’t arrived at Tampa Bay yet in my Guide so I’m not fully educated on their situation and where Namestnikov slots in, so all I can give you is my guess that he sees more ice time on a scoring line and takes another step forward this year. He was up to 14 minutes per game last year and I’d be shocked if that didn’t top 15 minutes this season.

For the record I like the DeKeyser signing.

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I think the problem with the signings and overpaying is because people were paid by the position they had on this team which was over their head like Ericsson. If Dekeseyer wasn't our best dman on a bad defensive lineup we would have likely got him for cheaper. He's overpaid slightly as of now but he'll grow into his contract. He's a good piece to start rebuilding the defense

Abby and Helm's contracts are bad, now way around it. I haven't watched Nielsen play but this could potentially be a very bad contract as well

I'm not going to get all up in arms that Holland is ruining this team until we see quality players lost through waivers or we're not able to sign quality young players because of his cap management. We'll see.

Edited by joesuffP

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I think it's always a different situation with D compared to forwards. There's only 6 that play regularly so if one contract ends up being bad it really gets in the way of the future. The worthy players that E is blocking are Sproul and Jensen (XO will get in with injuries). Are they better than E? I don't know. They could have actually gotten a shot if we'd spread out the call up so if you look at it that way they weren't even blocked by a player - just management deemed them not worthy.

Also, 1.8 vs. E's 4.25 are totally different. I remember when was signed people that it was a figure based on potential. I think we know what we're getting with Glendening (and Helm) and 5 more years of that seems likely from a 27 year old.

But anyway, I just can't imagine us saying in 2-3 years "our team would be so much better if we had ------ from GR on the 4th line, if only we hadn't signed Glendening." I mean, who is this 4th line center we have that's 3 years from the NHL? They would already be drafted by now. Turgeon or Ehn maybe, but they'll be other spots on the 4th line (both MIller and Ott gone next year) so prospects can go there. If they're even better than Glen at faceoffs than we move him to wing. We were fishing for a good 4th line center for a while with Emmerton and Andersson etc. Why not sign the best one of the bunch? Why keep fishing? 4 years is not even long term in my mind. And 1.8 is only slightly high. Miller's previous deal was 1.35 and no one complained. At the same time we had Eaves for 1.2 on the 4th line. Draper's caphit was as high as 2.128 as our 4th line center.

I think it's always smart to do extensions before the player has the option of testing the free market and coming back with a high offer to throw in your face. Plus. Glendening at 27 and in his 4th year is probably going to be better as he's developing and I think the improved coaching staff will help his numbers this year.

I'm trying not to turn against that Nielson deal. It's seems the most likely to get in the way to me. Helm moves around so I think he take different roles as Mantha and Svech come into the picture.

Helm isn't 27 though he's 29, which is exactly what Ericsson was then he signed. At least when we signed Ericsson we had just lost in game 7 to Chicago in the playoffs 2nd round. The year before that we had gotten eliminated by Nashville in 5 games so it seemed to be an upward trend to try and sign your players. It made sense. Right now we're handing out questionable contracts this summer to a team of players that backed into the playoffs. And has gotten outperformed in the playoffs 3 years in a row. And it's not the top 6. It's the bottom forwards. These are guys you generally don't sign long term and are supposed to be replaceable. These players are what allows management to have flexibility in their cap since the top 6 usually get locked up. Let me ask you a question. Why 5 years for Glendening? Why not sign him for a 2 year extension and see how things are maybe 2 years from now and give another extension if we don't have a good replacement? Why the heck would you give a 4th liner the contract length of a 1st line centerman and lock him up? The only explanation I have for this is this.

Panic. We're not attracting the best players. The NHL FA is a s***hole, it's become a retainment strategy. Is it the right strategy? Who knows. Maybe Holland is a genius and knows something we don't.

Unfortunately we're heading into an area where we are losing cap flexibility all across the board. 2015 we were probably one of the more cap friendly teams. 2016 and beyond we're probably up there with Chicago in the contracts we're bound to. This is what we have and this is what we're going to have to win with. There's not going to be much changes possible from here on out. Especially after Tatar and Smith are locked in this coming year.

My whole thing is this. If you are a contender like Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh, you do all you can to sign that cup winning team long term. But if you're a team getting backed into the playoffs. You should be very cautious in retaining the same team. This is the first year I've questioned the contracts given out by management. So what does that tell you lol.

Edited by kickazz

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I think DeKeyser is or at least has the potential to be on the same level as Seabrook. The different in their game in my opinion starts and ends with their partners. Seabrook has played with one of the better defensemen in the league for the better part of his career, while DeKeyser has played mostly with average to below average defense partners. The Keith - Seabrook pairing has been one of the best in the league, and I believe with the right partner (Trouba or similar), DeKeyser - (offensive defenseman) could have the same sort of potential. DeKeyser is a calming presence on the blueline, and is a very good number 3 or a solid number 2 on any team. I would have liked if he had signed at more of a hometown discount, say around $4.5M per, but I think $5M will end up being a steal in a few years. I'd definitely take DeKeyser at $5M until he's 32 over Seabrook at $6.875M until he's 39... Also, comparing this contract to Ericsson's is laughable...

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Dekeyser deal was great. He's not replaceable within the system. Same with Mrazek. And that's why Nielsen's deal is justified, we had no 1st/2nd line center and needed one.

There's some players where you really can't pass up. DK, Mrazek are those players. You have to do what you can to keep them.

If there's a player replaceable, signing them again will definitely be heavily analyzed over the years. Because if they turn out to be a bust or the contract is unmovable, or if they're blocking a player from playing, that's when the whole "Well you didn't have to sign them to begin with" narrative starts.

Even if DK turns out to be a bust, the justification to the anyone bitching about it will be "well he was a good signing at the time and it would have been stupid not to". I say that even now about Ericsson. Holland is in no way at fault for signing Ericsson. He was a promising top 4 defenseman and him and Kronwall we're really good together in 2013, there was absolutely no reason not to sign him. It just looks bad in hindsight. Same with Howard's contract. We didn't have any goalie to replace Howard.

But we can definitely garner up players to replace, Miller, Ott, Glendening and even Helm.

Edited by kickazz

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... and on the flip side, if we let Ericsson walk back a couple years ago and he became what Hjalmarsson is in Chicago, the same people would be complaining that Holland let a top 4 defenseman with great size walk for nothing... Hindsight is 20/20, and some people, no matter what, will find something to b**** about. We should have done this, we shouldn't have done that...

Regardless, I'm happy with these two contracts. Good job Holland.

Now if you could just grow some balls and make a trade, I'd be thrilled...

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My biggest problem with the Glendening signing is that 4th line centers of his caliber (decent speed, good on faceoffs, no offensive ability) are a dime a dozen. You shouldn't have to overpay on term or cap hit for a mediocre to bad 4th line center, and we did on both in my opinion. Yes I think Turgeon will be a better option in a few years, but let's see how his first year of pro goes first. That brings me to the next issue I have with the signing. We still had another full season to get this deal done, so why not wait to see how Glendening does this season? I highly doubt his play would demand higher than he's currently getting. We could also see how Turgeon does in his first year in Grand Rapids, as well as another season for Nosek, or even Holmstrom or Ehn overseas...

We just disagree on this part. I think Glendening is a very good 4th line center. I think his 21 points and +4 was good for the situations he's put in. Good faceoff guys alone are hard in my view.

I know there's been some anti-Glen stuff on here. For an outside perspective, Here's an article (yes it's an opinion piece) ranking him as one of the 3 best 4th liners.

http://speedkills.sportsblog.com/posts/6554003/the-3-best-4th-liners-in-the-nhl.html

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Somewhere in Russia, 30 hours away from his daughter, Datsyuk is :hysterical: right now saying, see, THIS is why I wanted out! Mike Babcock concurs... too long and too lucrative of contracts for mediocre to trending downwards replaceable players.

I do like DD and Petr signings. Hopefully we'll like DD'S in 3 years still...

Edited by LeftWinger

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Ok, with LTIR it'll bring us back under the cap, but we'll still be the top paid team in the nhl. We have got to dump Jimmy and E somehow. This cap just cannot be justified. We are nowhere near cup sniffers let alone contenders, let alone favorites, but our cap puts us right up there with champions and favorites.

Buy Jimmy out now. You'll have 6 years at a cap hit of around $1.6M. At least we'll have all that savings. Dammit Kenny, someone will take him, just stop over valuing him and accept a 7th or future considerations! Or hell, just retain $1.5M of his salary for only the 3 years left and you won't have to give him buyout money. We will need that cap space this season for sure!

Edited by LeftWinger

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Ok, with LTIR it'll bring us back under the cap, but we'll still be the top paid team in the nhl. We have got to dump Jimmy and E somehow. This cap just cannot be justified. We are nowhere near cup sniffers let alone contenders, let alone favorites, but our cap puts us right up there with champions and favorites.

Buy Jimmy out now. You'll have 6 years at a cap hit of around $1.6M. At least we'll have all that savings. Dammit Kenny, someone will take him, just stop over valuing him and accept a 7th or future considerations! Or hell, just retain $1.5M of his salary for only the 3 years left and you won't have to give him buyout money. We will need that cap space this season for sure!

Would you rather use Tampa Bay's formula?

Miss the playoffs 5/6 seasons from 2008-2013 - stockpile draft picks in those years, compete in 2015 and 2016 (without winning anything) and then face Stamkos, Kucherov, and Killorn in free agency that summer, and then Bishop, Hedman, Johnson, Palat, Drouin, and Sustr the next?

I'm not saying Yzerman hasn't done a fantastic job retaining his core players so far (as Stamkos stayed for alot less money) - but in Detroit we don't have the tax benefits they do in Florida, and you can bet that TB will soon be a cap team without some of the names I just mentioned.

That's the reality of making the playoffs 25 consecutive years in a salary cap system.

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