Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

[kliq 3,755]

It's in response to anyone who thinks that just because he could have gotten that or more, which is really just speculation anyway, that it was OK to give him that. Holland used to know that, now he either doesn't understand or just doesn't care.

When its wildly reported by credible sources, it's a bit more then basic speculation. We are not talking a few posters saying this as a theory.

I don't think anyone was super happy with the contract, so I'm not sure who you are trying to prove your point to. Pretty much everyone thought it was an over-payment.

I don't think Holland doesn't care, I believe Hollands perception of what Helm is worth simply differs from the fans.

I agree with Kickazz though....the money isnt as much an issue, its more so the term I worry about. If Helm signed for 2 years at the same caphit, I dont think anyone would even care.

[LeftWinger 4,949]

Could you imagine this D with both Fowler and Trouba on it for the rest of their careers? Add to that DD and Marchenko? Our D will be set for the next 15 years!

[NerveDamage 4,176]

Could you imagine this D with both Fowler and Trouba on it for the rest of their careers? Add to that DD and Marchenko? Our D will be set for the next 15 years!

....supposedly

[kipwinger 8,518]

Disregarding the incredibly unlikely scenario where we get two good defensemen, I'd still argue that even getting one is a bad idea right now. Adding any one of Shattenkirk, Trouba, or Fowler doesn't make our defense good. Better? Yes. But still middle of the road. But any trade to do so would require one of our better offensive pieces. That would likely make an offense which could well be "good" a lot more mediocre. And personally I'd rather have a good offense and a mediocre defense than be mediocre at both. We've got to figure out a way to be good at something lest we fall into the trap of being good at nothing. All in the name of "balance" which is a fairly overrated concept to begin with.

[LeftWinger 4,949]

I'm of the opinion that having AA and Fowler on this team makes us better than having Nyquist & Ericsson. I do the Anaheim scenario in a heartbeat.

Ken Holland is going to shock us all and acquire both Fowler and Trouba! Half of our D will be local kids! Sweet!

The teams are just ironing out the details!

[LeftWinger 4,949]

I'd rather move Jurco and put Mantha along AA and Helm, add some muscle to that speedy 3rd line

Jurco is a pretty big boy, he's not going to fight (neither is Mantha) but he can forecheck pretty good, and Helm, for as much as I don't like him, is defensively sound and could handle that part of the ice along with the corner work. AA and Jurco will handle the scoring.

[NerveDamage 4,176]

Jurco is a pretty big boy, he's not going to fight (neither is Mantha) but he can forecheck pretty good, and Helm, for as much as I don't like him, is defensively sound and could handle that part of the ice along with the corner work. AA and Jurco will handle the scoring.

as I see it, Helm, AA and Jurco have similar styles, so what good is it to overflow one line with the same type of player?

I see Mantha as more of a net presence player that could bug the goalie and bank in a few deflections.

Edited August 4, 2016 by NerveDamage

[kipwinger 8,518]

as I see it, Helm, AA and Jurco have similar styles, so what good is it to overflow one line with the same type of player?

I see Mantha as more of a net presence player that could bug the goalie and bank in a few deflections.

I may be in the minority, but I don't see Mantha as (or want him to be) a "net front" guy. I think that would ruin him. He's got the skill, shot, and speed to be a power sniper type guy in the vein of Rick Nash, James Neal, or Blake Wheeler. Let guys like Abby bang and crash in front of the net. That takes almost no skill. I want Mantha to have more freedom than that.

Similarly, I think that's one of the problems with Jurco. He's big, so everybody wants him to play a power game. But that's not his forte. He's more comparable to Nyquist or Tatar than he is to Abby. But they keep trying to make him be that guy and it's awkward for him because he's never played that way. Reminds me a little of how they used to want Filppula to "shoot more" so they put him on the wing. It was always going to be a bad fit for him.

Imagine if someone had repeatedly beat into Marian Hossa, or Nash, or any number of other guys, that they needed to play "heavy" and crash the net, and look for shot tips and rebounds. They'd have been wasted.

Edited August 4, 2016 by kipwinger

[Buppy 1,720]

Disregarding the incredibly unlikely scenario where we get two good defensemen, I'd still argue that even getting one is a bad idea right now. Adding any one of Shattenkirk, Trouba, or Fowler doesn't make our defense good. Better? Yes. But still middle of the road. But any trade to do so would require one of our better offensive pieces. That would likely make an offense which could well be "good" a lot more mediocre. And personally I'd rather have a good offense and a mediocre defense than be mediocre at both. We've got to figure out a way to be good at something lest we fall into the trap of being good at nothing. All in the name of "balance" which is a fairly overrated concept to begin with.

But upgrading a defenseman doesn't necessarily only upgrade the defense. Shattenkirk scored more points, and only a few less goals, than Nyquist last year. Add to that having options like AA, Mantha, Jurco, and Pulkkinen all likely to be underused or not on the roster at all...

Of course, when bringing in new players, there's always questions as to how well everything will come together and how well any individual will perform, but I don't think it'd be any more of a question than what we already have. It'd be one thing if our offense had been good last year, but it wasn't. It's already something we need to try to fix.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Disregarding the incredibly unlikely scenario where we get two good defensemen, I'd still argue that even getting one is a bad idea right now. Adding any one of Shattenkirk, Trouba, or Fowler doesn't make our defense good. Better? Yes. But still middle of the road. But any trade to do so would require one of our better offensive pieces. That would likely make an offense which could well be "good" a lot more mediocre. And personally I'd rather have a good offense and a mediocre defense than be mediocre at both. We've got to figure out a way to be good at something lest we fall into the trap of being good at nothing. All in the name of "balance" which is a fairly overrated concept to begin with.

Detroit has a ton of offensive wingers and no good D coming in. A smart GM trades a surplus for something he lacks. Trading Nyquist and another piece or two to upgrade the D is a net gain.

I may be in the minority, but I don't see Mantha as (or want him to be) a "net front" guy. I think that would ruin him. He's got the skill, shot, and speed to be a power sniper type guy in the vein of Rick Nash, James Neal, or Blake Wheeler. Let guys like Abby bang and crash in front of the net. That takes almost no skill. I want Mantha to have more freedom than that.

Similarly, I think that's one of the problems with Jurco. He's big, so everybody wants him to play a power game. But that's not his forte. He's more comparable to Nyquist or Tatar than he is to Abby. But they keep trying to make him be that guy and it's awkward for him because he's never played that way. Reminds me a little of how they used to want Filppula to "shoot more" so they put him on the wing. It was always going to be a bad fit for him.

Imagine if someone had repeatedly beat into Marian Hossa, or Nash, or any number of other guys, that they needed to play "heavy" and crash the net, and look for shot tips and rebounds. They'd have been wasted.

There's some mythical idea that bug guys have to stand in front of the net like Homer did. It's Bullshtuff, they should be told to play roles that their talents allow them to excel at. Babs and Blash love pounding square pegs into round holes though. Make a grinder a scorer and a 's over a grinder, and God forbid the let an offensive defenseman play offense and give him PP time, oh no smart coaches make them kill penalties and not carry the puck past the red line.

[kipwinger 8,518]

But upgrading a defenseman doesn't necessarily only upgrade the defense. Shattenkirk scored more points, and only a few less goals, than Nyquist last year. Add to that having options like AA, Mantha, Jurco, and Pulkkinen all likely to be underused or not on the roster at all...

Of course, when bringing in new players, there's always questions as to how well everything will come together and how well any individual will perform, but I don't think it'd be any more of a question than what we already have. It'd be one thing if our offense had been good last year, but it wasn't. It's already something we need to try to fix.

Agreed. But I think our offense under performed last year anyway. Any improvement on the powerplay, rebound seasons from Nyquist and Tatar and Green and Kronwall, increased contributions from the guys you mentioned, and the additions of Vanek and Neilsen give me some optimism with regards to our offensive potential. I'm expecting a better offense this year.

I agree that a better defense would likely improve the offense. No doubt about it. But I don't think either of Fowler or Trouba will contribute much. Shattenkirk likely would, but it would probably be a wash (at best) with what we'd lose in Nyquist (and potentially others). And there's always the likelihood that a guy like Shattenkirk scores a good deal less with us than he did with a much better offensive team in St. Louis.

I'm not against a trade for a defenseman. I'm just against one right now. Why not go into the season with what we have, see how things look, and then look to deal (if needed) closer to the deadline if need be? I'm just a bit reluctant to part with one of our better offensive contributors for any of those three guys. While they're all good players, none of them are game changers, and it might just be that we need the goals scoring more.

[NerveDamage 4,176]

I may be in the minority, but I don't see Mantha as (or want him to be) a "net front" guy. I think that would ruin him. He's got the skill, shot, and speed to be a power sniper type guy in the vein of Rick Nash, James Neal, or Blake Wheeler. Let guys like Abby bang and crash in front of the net. That takes almost no skill. I want Mantha to have more freedom than that.

Similarly, I think that's one of the problems with Jurco. He's big, so everybody wants him to play a power game. But that's not his forte. He's more comparable to Nyquist or Tatar than he is to Abby. But they keep trying to make him be that guy and it's awkward for him because he's never played that way. Reminds me a little of how they used to want Filppula to "shoot more" so they put him on the wing. It was always going to be a bad fit for him.

Imagine if someone had repeatedly beat into Marian Hossa, or Nash, or any number of other guys, that they needed to play "heavy" and crash the net, and look for shot tips and rebounds. They'd have been wasted.

I didn't know that was expected from Jurco, from what I've seen in his demo reel highlights I saw him more of a play maker. and about Mantha I wasa just recalling from what I saw him do the few games he played last season. I'll pay more attention this upcoming season

[Buppy 1,720]

Agreed. But I think our offense under performed last year anyway. Any improvement on the powerplay, rebound seasons from Nyquist and Tatar and Green and Kronwall, increased contributions from the guys you mentioned, and the additions of Vanek and Neilsen give me some optimism with regards to our offensive potential. I'm expecting a better offense this year.

I agree that a better defense would likely improve the offense. No doubt about it. But I don't think either of Fowler or Trouba will contribute much. Shattenkirk likely would, but it would probably be a wash (at best) with what we'd lose in Nyquist (and potentially others). And there's always the likelihood that a guy like Shattenkirk scores a good deal less with us than he did with a much better offensive team in St. Louis.

I'm not against a trade for a defenseman. I'm just against one right now. Why not go into the season with what we have, see how things look, and then look to deal (if needed) closer to the deadline if need be? I'm just a bit reluctant to part with one of our better offensive contributors for any of those three guys. While they're all good players, none of them are game changers, and it might just be that we need the goals scoring more.

You wait until the trade deadline and you might not have the same options. I also have my doubts about Trouba and Fowler, but I'd do that Shattenkirk deal in a heartbeat. (And for the record, StL only scored 10 more goals than the Wings, so they weren't much better.) I'd also take Vatanen or Lindholm (and maybe Manson) if we were to target an Anaheim D.

On the flip side, there's a chance that an even better option would open up by the trade deadline, but given our cap situation that seems unlikely.

I agree that we have enough talent up front that expecting better isn't a stretch. But I also think we have enough talent that we can expect better even without one of Nyquist or Tatar. One of them (or maybe both) is likely to be in a lower line role anyway, while AA and Mantha may not be on the team at all.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Buppy

[LeftWinger 4,949]

I see Mantha as hopefully a power forward type. Big body, sniper. Not a holmstrom type guy. I see Jurco in a similar way. Big and a bit of a sniper. He has definitely been used wrong the last couple of seasons. Think back to the jurco-Sheahan-Tatar line. That's how he should be used.

[kickazz 5,459]

I see Mantha as hopefully a power forward type. Big body, sniper. Not a holmstrom type guy. I see Jurco in a similar way. Big and a bit of a sniper. He has definitely been used wrong the last couple of seasons. Think back to the jurco-Sheahan-Tatar line. That's how he should be used.

So like Franzen?

[NerveDamage 4,176]

Swe vs Can U20 It's a goal fest 4-1 in the 1st period

[LeftWinger 4,949]

So like Franzen?

I spit out my drink when I read this. What an insult to Mantha.

What, no trade yet?

Edited August 5, 2016 by LeftWinger

[NerveDamage 4,176]

I spit out my drink when I read this. What an insult to Mantha.

What, no trade yet?

no trade yet but I read that in an interview, Doug Armstrong, told the press Shattenkirk is a Blues and there's no intent on changing that, and they compared it to how Bergevin said pretty much the same thing about PK and a few days later he was traded for Weber

Edited August 5, 2016 by NerveDamage

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I spit out my drink when I read this. What an insult to Mantha.

What, no trade yet?

A guy who scores 25+ goals and 55 points a year is a bad thing?

[kickazz 5,459]

I spit out my drink when I read this. What an insult to Mantha.

What, no trade yet?

LOL. Oh boy. Okay.

Kid doesn't even have 5 goals in the NHL yet and it's already an insult to compare him to Franzen.

[kipwinger 8,518]

I'd be thrilled if Mantha turned out exactly like Franzen. Though I hope he'd learn to keep his head out of the way of traffic a little better than Johan.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Frankly Franzen is exactly what the team needs right now. We would be so lucky if Mantha pans out into at least that type of player.

[kickazz 5,459]

We need a goal scorer. Mantha is probably the best chance of having one out of all our prospect pool. At least on paper that is.

[joesuffP 1,746]

I have nothing but great memories of Franzen. He single handedly won series en route to back to back finals. If it wasn't for his freakish scoring I don't think we win in 08. I don't think I've ever seen a player so dominant. Consistent? Not quite but when he was on one of his crazy streaks there was absolutely nothing that could stop him

Edited August 6, 2016 by joesuffP

[kickazz 5,459]

I have nothing but great memories of Franzen. He single handedly won series en route to back to back finals. If it wasn't for his freakish scoring I don't think we win in 08. I don't think I've ever seen a player so dominant. Consistent? Not quite but when he was on one of his crazy streaks there was absolutely nothing that could stop him

Lmfao lets not get ahead of ourselves. Almost all the games he "freakishly" scored on we won like 4-0, 8-2 and like 5-1 against Colorado. We had plenty of scoring all around from our team because our team was just that good with the Lidstroms, Franzens, Datsyuks, Zetterbergs and Osgood just dropping shutouts and 1 goal games left and right. Hell even Niklas Kronwall had like 15 assists and lead the team in the stat. That team was unbeatable all around from forwards to defense to goalie to coaching. Probably one of the best teams put together post salary cap era.

Edited August 6, 2016 by kickazz