Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

[kickazz 5,459]

No lol. There's definitely players in the system that can do what Helm does. It's just that they don't get the opportunity and Blashill is too afraid to give them the chance. AA > Helm mark it. He's already a better producer than Helm is and played far less games and VERY limited ice time. He kills penalties (had a nice short handed goal), he's fast, has hands, plays with lesser linemates. Give AA the chance and he would probably do better than Helm. Helm is what? 29 years old? and still producing at a low rate while AA is 22 and already his production rate has surpassed Helm.

Edited August 12, 2016 by kickazz

[NerveDamage 4,176]

Can anyone explain this shootout goal by Tarasenko? My brain hurts

https://youtu.be/y0ybOeWsvLY

Edited August 12, 2016 by NerveDamage

[Buppy 1,720]

I don't think any of our 11th or higher picks panned out aside from Yzerman. Primeau was traded to bring in Shanahan. But ultimately the 97 team only had 2 of our own high first round picks one which was Yzerman almost 15 years after he was drafted, the other was Lapointe who wasn't very good. It all came down to trades, re-build on the fly, and getting lucky with the Russian 5 in the mid to later rounds of the draft. And getting lucky with Lidstrom in the 3rd round of the draft.

True, but that also highlights some of the other differences between the eras. Trades for star players were more common. We traded Murphy for Carson, Carson for Coffey, and Coffey (with Primeau) for Shanny. Then there was the influx of Russian and European players during the same time. So we had three things going for us then that we don't have now.

Plus, we weren't exactly flying then to say we rebuilt on-the-fly. Relatively similar to where we are now I suppose, but fewer teams to compete against.

Not to say that it's impossible to build on the fly, just that it isn't the same situation.

Let's put it this way. What's your expectations for Helm and Vanek this year? If AA and Mantha played the entire season in Detroit, what would your expectations for them be? If the answers are similar, they should have gone with the kids. Your team this year would be about the same, and it would benefit them more ling term. Ditto for Bertuzzi vs. Miller or Ott.

But we still have AA and Mantha. I'd be shocked if AA at least doesn't get a significant amount of games. Mantha I'm sure will get an opportunity, and if he produces I'm sure he'll stick.

More depth is better than less depth. More options are better than fewer options.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Hypothetically, what happens if both Athanasiou and Mantha kill it in training camp / pre-season, and force their way onto the roster, the same way Larkin did last year? Does anyone actually believe Holland would keep both on the opening roster (with everyone healthy), and waive a vet like Miller / Ott or make a trade to get down to the 23-man roster limit / cap compliant?...

[kickazz 5,459]

Hypothetically, what happens if both Athanasiou and Mantha kill it in training camp / pre-season, and force their way onto the roster, the same way Larkin did last year? Does anyone actually believe Holland would keep both on the opening roster (with everyone healthy), and waive a vet like Miller / Ott or make a trade to get down to the 23-man roster limit / cap compliant?...

I said this before. Larkin didn't force his way into the roster. We had an injured first line centerman who had been wanting to leave for Russia for two years. Larkin made the roster because we needed someone to fill a top 6 center role sooner rather than later. Larkin will be on center opening night this season for that very reason. If they hadn't brought him up last year then we would have had zero centers aside from a washed up Zetterberg. We only now signed Nielsen but last summer we didn't know we were going to have him.

AA and Mantha have it even harder than Larkin did because there's literally no spots available for them on the roster. Larkin not only had a spot open but he also killed it in camp. It's like a two step scenario the way I look at it. First step is do well. Second step is "is there an open spot?"

Mantha only makes it if there's injuries imo. Even if he kills it in camp, I just don't see him making it opening night. AA possibly the same situation, even though AA should be in by his better performance than most players on the roster last year.

Some people here and on twitter are delusional and think that all it takes is for Mantha and AA to do really well in camp and they should get a spot "if they didn't make it that means they weren't good enough". That's not what it comes down to. As of now we have no spots so it doesn't matter how well these kids do.

The other point I wanted to make was Ott and Miller aren't the spots AA and Mantha would be fighting for. Guys like Bertuzzi and Callahan would probably be gunning for those guys spots. AA and Mantha are top 9 players. And who did we re-sign for top 9 long term...

Edited August 12, 2016 by kickazz

[Buppy 1,720]

Hypothetically, what happens if both Athanasiou and Mantha kill it in training camp / pre-season, and force their way onto the roster, the same way Larkin did last year? Does anyone actually believe Holland would keep both on the opening roster (with everyone healthy), and waive a vet like Miller / Ott or make a trade to get down to the 23-man roster limit / cap compliant?...

I would say absolutely, without even the slightest trace of doubt, yes. Though probably at the expense of Jurco/Pulk rather than Miller/Ott.

However, I would bet that "kill it in camp" means something wildly different to management than it does for fans. For fans it's probably something like score a goal or just skate fast one time in a highlight clip.

But let's turn that around. Hypothetically, if both AA and Mantha suck in camp/pre-season, would anyone that currently thinks they should be on the roster change their mind?

[kickazz 5,459]

Yeah Jurco and Pulk would probably be the guys they're fighting for spots with. But lose them on waiver? I don't think that's happening.

Edited August 12, 2016 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

Larkin was on the opening night roster because he earned it. I disagree that it had much, if anything at all to do with Datsyuk's injury. Larkin made the roster as a winger, the same position Mantha and likely even Athanasiou would be fighting for in camp this year. If Datsyuk were healthy to start last season, I still believe Larkin makes the roster.

I doubt Holland would waive Jurco or Pulkkinen to keep a waiver eligible player on the roster. As much as I'd like to see one or both on the roster, I'd be pissed if he lost either to waivers.

What a mess of a roster... Holland better hope there are injuries in camp...

[DickieDunn 2,571]

They planned on having Larkin make the team going into camp, the hype machine was rolling pretty good. He would had to crap the bed to not make it.

Zetterberg

Tatar

Nyquist

Larkin

Nielsen

Abdelkader

Vanek guaranteed top 3 lines.

Helm probably won't get dropped to the 4th line right after getting a bug contract. Unless they've given up on Sheahan, he won't be on the 4th either. So unless they put them with Gleddogmillionaire there isn't room for Mantha or AA

[kickazz 5,459]

Larkin was on the opening night roster because he earned it. I disagree that it had much, if anything at all to do with Datsyuk's injury. Larkin made the roster as a winger, the same position Mantha and likely even Athanasiou would be fighting for in camp this year. If Datsyuk were healthy to start last season, I still believe Larkin makes the roster.

I doubt Holland would waive Jurco or Pulkkinen to keep a waiver eligible player on the roster. As much as I'd like to see one or both on the roster, I'd be pissed if he lost either to waivers.

What a mess of a roster... Holland better hope there are injuries in camp...

They hyped it up and fed the story to us that he made the roster because he was so good. In reality, none of us back then knew what was brewing with Datsyuk behind the scenes. Now that the story is made public it all makes sense. Datsyuk was told by Holland and Illitches that if he honored the 2015/16 contract he was free to go. At the same exact time, Larkin makes the top 6 as a winger on Zetterberg's line as Datsyuk is on his last year to give him the needed experience before he took the helm down the road. That is no mere coincidence. The Red Wings NEVER allow 19 year olds on their roster regardless of how good they are.

Management played their cards right. They knew they would be losing a star player so they went all in on their 1st round pick. It's a business dude, to management it's all about business and trying to fill holes before they're created.

If Datsyuk wasn't injured or if he was to stay and complete his contract, that winger slot would have been filled by Zetterberg and the first line would have been the usual Abdelkader - Datsyuk - Zetterberg or something along those lines. I'm not saying Larkin didn't get in because he wasn't good. He was definitely good enough. It just so happened he was lucky that there was a slot open for him.

Datsyuk gone, Zetterberg heavily declined. Nielsen takes one of the center spots and now we are hearing that Larkin takes the other top 6 center spot. Coincidence? I don't think so. This was all planned ahead of time because they knew what was coming before it came. I just wish they could have had the same luck on defense.

Edited August 12, 2016 by kickazz

[joesuffP 1,746]

Pretty elaborate speculation

[kickazz 5,459]

It's common sense really. Just put yourself in the shoes of Holland and your star player tells you he's leaving for Russia and you watch as your other star player is slower than a hippopotomus on ice. What would common sense have you do? Probably go out and get a centerman right? Or bring one up from the system. Well they did both things. They got Nielsen and they brought up Larkin.

Edited August 12, 2016 by kickazz

[LeftWinger 4,959]

Hypothetically, what happens if both Athanasiou and Mantha kill it in training camp / pre-season, and force their way onto the roster, the same way Larkin did last year? Does anyone actually believe Holland would keep both on the opening roster (with everyone healthy), and waive a vet like Miller / Ott or make a trade to get down to the 23-man roster limit / cap compliant?...

Short answer, no.

Long answer, no.

I still holding out hope for a fowler and or trouba deal before camp.

Helm should not have been signed and Nyquist should've been dealt. There's AA and Mantha top 9 spots.

Maybe if miller or ott weren't signed we could have helm on the 4th. Still, deal nyquist and the spots are open.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I completely disagree with you here kickazz... To say that Larkin wouldn't have made the team if Datsyuk weren't injured or weren't leaving is big time speculation on your part, and way off in my opinion. I think if Larkin weren't able to Crack the top line, he certainly would have cracked the top 9. He was that good in training camp, and Blashill and Holland were that impressed that they simply couldn't send him down.

If we were in a major roster crunch like we are this year and a relatively valuable player would have had to be waived, maybe he gets sent down. As it sits right now, there isn't room for any kids to force their way onto this roster, unless they're willing to waive Miller / Ott because of poor roster management (never seen that before)...

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

James Wisniewski on a tryout with the Lightning.

http://www.todaysslapshot.com/from-the-ice/james-wisniewski-inks-pto-tampa/

Like this move for Tampa Bay. Absolutely no risk and has the potential to fit into Matt Carle's vacated position on the blueline.

[kickazz 5,459]

I completely disagree with you here kickazz... To say that Larkin wouldn't have made the team if Datsyuk weren't injured or weren't leaving is big time speculation on your part, and way off in my opinion. I think if Larkin weren't able to Crack the top line, he certainly would have cracked the top 9. He was that good in training camp, and Blashill and Holland were that impressed that they simply couldn't send him down.

If we were in a major roster crunch like we are this year and a relatively valuable player would have had to be waived, maybe he gets sent down. As it sits right now, there isn't room for any kids to force their way onto this roster, unless they're willing to waive Miller / Ott because of poor roster management (never seen that before)...

How is it way off?? Take a look at the top 9 roster going into 2015/16.

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Abdelkader, Nyquist, Tatar, Richards, Franzen, Sheahan, Helm.

If all those players played and Franzen and Datsyuk weren't injured who exactly would Larkin have replaced on the top 9? I'd honestly like to know your opinion on that. This is not speculation on my part, I'm just going based off of what the roster was heading into training camp and who was eligible to be sent down. We had 9 roster players none of which were eligible to be sent down. In fact Larkin didn't only secure a spot with 1 roster spot but there were actually two by the time Franzen got injured.

I really can't think of one player on that top 9 list that would have been scratched in favor of Larkin. Maybe Sheahan? Big maybe though because he's one of our few big bodies forwards. Maybe Helm? But Helm is the versatile one who kills penalties.

Hell I haven't even listed Pulkinen or Jurco! Our beloved 13th and 14th forwards. Also didn't list Ferraro, Glendog or Miller but that's just because they're bottom 3. And then there was also Andersson.

Edited August 13, 2016 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

I'll put it this way. Larkin got the spot because it was available and also because he was the best player not part of the official the roster during the training camp. Add in the factor that we're losing our top centerman in a year.. We needed to groom up another asap. Worked out well for us in the end.

Edited August 13, 2016 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

How is it way off?? Take a look at the top 9 roster going into 2015/16.

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Abdelkader, Nyquist, Tatar, Richards, Franzen, Sheahan, Helm.

If all those players played and Franzen and Datsyuk weren't injured who exactly would Larkin have replaced on the top 9? I'd honestly like to know your opinion on that. This is not speculation on my part, I'm just going based off of what the roster was heading into training camp and who was eligible to be sent down. We had 9 roster players none of which were eligible to be sent down. In fact Larkin didn't only secure a spot with 1 roster spot but there were actually two by the time Franzen got injured.

I really can't think of one player on that top 9 list that would have been scratched in favor of Larkin. Maybe Sheahan? Big maybe though because he's one of our few big bodies forwards. Maybe Helm? But Helm is the versatile one who kills penalties.

Hell I haven't even listed Pulkinen or Jurco! Our beloved 13th and 14th forwards. Also didn't list Ferraro, Glendog or Miller but that's just because they're bottom 3. And then there was also Andersson.

Franzen had zero chance of actually playing

[NerveDamage 4,176]

Franzen had zero chance of actually playing

he only played preseason games right?

[kickazz 5,459]

Franzen had zero chance of actually playing

Except that he played lol.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Let me rephrase that. He has zero chance of playing a meaningful number of games.

[Buppy 1,720]

How is it way off?? Take a look at the top 9 roster going into 2015/16.

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Abdelkader, Nyquist, Tatar, Richards, Franzen, Sheahan, Helm.

If all those players played and Franzen and Datsyuk weren't injured who exactly would Larkin have replaced on the top 9? I'd honestly like to know your opinion on that. This is not speculation on my part, I'm just going based off of what the roster was heading into training camp and who was eligible to be sent down. We had 9 roster players none of which were eligible to be sent down. In fact Larkin didn't only secure a spot with 1 roster spot but there were actually two by the time Franzen got injured.

I really can't think of one player on that top 9 list that would have been scratched in favor of Larkin. Maybe Sheahan? Big maybe though because he's one of our few big bodies forwards. Maybe Helm? But Helm is the versatile one who kills penalties.

Hell I haven't even listed Pulkinen or Jurco! Our beloved 13th and 14th forwards. Also didn't list Ferraro, Glendog or Miller but that's just because they're bottom 3. And then there was also Andersson.

Well, considering Larkin was ahead of Nyquist, Tatar, Richards, Franzen, and Sheahan from day one (Helm was out the first handful of games) it's not too hard to imagine that he could have displaced one of them. Most likely one of Sheahan or Helm getting bumped to a checking line, with Ferraro or Andersson being waived (as they eventually were anyway).

But that's pretty pointless speculation. Yeah, maybe Larkin wasn't so good that he would have gotten a roster spot in any possible situation, but he most definitely did earn his spot.

Many of the reasons you give for suggesting that Larkin was given some special opportunity could also apply to AA/Mantha this year. Could apply to pretty much any team any year. There's always someone who leaves, or is on the way out, and injuries happen. From the estimates given, it seems probable that Pulk won't be ready right away. Z is still aging. Vanek's only on a one-year deal.

But more to the point, there is always a spot available for a good enough player. If we had Ovechkin instead of Mantha there wouldn't be any question. If AA comes to camp and looks dominant, scores 8g and 14p in 5 pre-season games, generates HQ scoring chances every shift, is engaged and effective defensively...he'll make the team, even if it means waiving someone we don't really want to lose.

Now, if he looks just "good" in a handful of mostly meaningless games, no, we probably won't risk losing someone. Wouldn't be worth it, given that injuries are inevitable and he'll get his shot sooner or later.

[kliq 3,755]

Let me rephrase that. He has zero chance of playing a meaningful number of games.

Completely redundant due to the context of the argument. The debate is whether or not Larkin made the team on the opening day roster due to injuries or due to impressing in training camp. Franzen likely not lasting the entire season had zero to do with this.

[kickazz 5,459]

Well, considering Larkin was ahead of Nyquist, Tatar, Richards, Franzen, and Sheahan from day one (Helm was out the first handful of games) it's not too hard to imagine that he could have displaced one of them. Most likely one of Sheahan or Helm getting bumped to a checking line, with Ferraro or Andersson being waived (as they eventually were anyway).

But that's pretty pointless speculation. Yeah, maybe Larkin wasn't so good that he would have gotten a roster spot in any possible situation, but he most definitely did earn his spot.

Many of the reasons you give for suggesting that Larkin was given some special opportunity could also apply to AA/Mantha this year. Could apply to pretty much any team any year. There's always someone who leaves, or is on the way out, and injuries happen. From the estimates given, it seems probable that Pulk won't be ready right away. Z is still aging. Vanek's only on a one-year deal.

But more to the point, there is always a spot available for a good enough player. If we had Ovechkin instead of Mantha there wouldn't be any question. If AA comes to camp and looks dominant, scores 8g and 14p in 5 pre-season games, generates HQ scoring chances every shift, is engaged and effective defensively...he'll make the team, even if it means waiving someone we don't really want to lose.

Now, if he looks just "good" in a handful of mostly meaningless games, no, we probably won't risk losing someone. Wouldn't be worth it, given that injuries are inevitable and he'll get his shot sooner or later.

He earned his spot, no one is arguing that, I just think there were circumstances that helped his situation. Injuries for one.

Now here is something I wondered about last year -->Tyler Bertuzzi and Anthony Mantha both scored more than Larkin did in the pre-season games last year and one wasn't even considered to be a 13th or 14th forward last year while the other didn't even get an opportunity till the last month of the season. Why?

[krsmith17 7,191]

The way I understood what you were saying was that Datsyuk specifically being injured was the reason Larkin made the opening night roster. That's what I disagree with, but maybe that's not exactly what you meant. An injury, any injury would have put him in, and how often does a team go through an entire camp with every player being healthy on opening day. I also agree with Buppy in that he could have / would have pushed one of Andersson / Ferraro off the roster if it came down to it.

Regarding Mantha and Bertuzzi, I personally think both needed a / another full season in Grand Rapids going into last season. Mantha was just coming off a "very very disappointing" rookie season, and it was Bertuzzi's first full pro season. This season however I would have liked to see both on opening night roster, Mantha in Vanek's spot and Bertuzzi in Miller / Ott's. Management must see both taking over said spots full time next season as all three of those players are on one year contracts.