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Hockeytown0001

Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

By Hockeytown0001, in General

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MileHighWingsGuy    178

MileHighWingsGuy
Posted (edited)

Unfortunately I think we as fans have thought more about a trade and improving the team than Holland ever has. The trade just never comes...next we'll look to the deadline, then next year. It just goes on and on with the same result.

I'm now waiting for the fluff piece by St. James telling us how bad a trade may have been, how great the team is now and how resigning Quincey might really be the answer.

Edited by MileHighWingsGuy

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kliq    3,755

kliq
Posted

Trouba is four years younger, is bigger, and has more upside. Fowler is 24, bigger, and still has plenty of room to improve. Dekeyser probably will get better, but not take a big leap forward like either of the younger guys could. I'd move one of Mantha, AA, Tatar, Nyquist plus either Smith or a second rounder for either. If other players were involved, say Scheifele and Trouba for Larkin, Smith, and Marchenko, I'd probably consider doing that too.

You have to give to get, and Holland and several people here don't want to give anything good. Larkin is probably going to be a 65-70 point two way center. AA is probably going to be a second line forward. Mrazek is a probably gong to be a good goalie but who knows, goalies are impossible to really project. Too many things can go wrong with them, and other teams have proven you don't need a top 5 goalie to win the Cup if your team is solid and doesn't give up a ton of prime scoring chances. What you do need is an elite defense man and a couple elite forwards, at least one of whom is a center. Outside of possibly Larkin, Detroit doesn't have those. To hear some people talk though, Larkin is for sure an elite player, AA is going to be almost as good, Dekeyser is a top pair D and maybe even a #1 if he gets a little better, and Mrazek is already one of the top goalies. Most of these are the same people who said they wouldn't have traded Nyquist or Sproul for anything short of Crosby or Ovechkin.

Extreme's on both ends are a bit ridiculous. Talking as if all the kids are going to be elite superstars is unrealistic, but at the same time being overaly cynical is just as far fetched.

That's what happens in these trade scenario's, people either want to trade all the players they dont want, or they throw names out there like Larkin and Mrazek to get a rise out of those saying names that would never happen for guys like Trouba or Fowler. With that being said, if this trade ever gets made I could see something similar to your scenario happening with AA, Smith, and a pick. The only thing that would have to be added is someone with a more significant cap hit to off set what Trouba will end up signing for. Maybe they trade Nyquist and AA and no pick, who knows. Either way I would be shocked if this deal gets done.

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NerveDamage    4,176

NerveDamage
Posted (edited)

I expect KFQ to be at the Wings camp on a try out basis (and probably a 1 yr signing).

With Kronwall potentially missing some time at the start of the season - how many guys from GR will Holland/Blashill be willing to start the season with on the blue line?

I read, on the hockey writters, an article about the Calgary Flames PTO and 5 players to look for, and they mentioned KFQ, although I didn't understand if it was just a sure thing or just a player for them to consider.

Edited by NerveDamage

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kipwinger    8,522

kipwinger
Posted

Well, we did sign Vanek, who has produced at a similar rate. That combined with the potential of our prospects certainly makes them expendable, to the extent that any important player can ever really be considered as such.

Of course, for one of them AND a top prospect (let alone Larkin) I'd have to get someone better than anyone rumored to be available.

For Fowler or Trouba I'd do Nyquist + something minor (2nd-tier prospect or 3rd-round pick). Bit more for Shattenkirk if he came with an extention, or less if not. Rather have Lindholm or Vatanen from Anaheim though. I'd give up a little extra for Lindholm even.

I'd also substitute Tatar for Nyquist, but we'd have to work something else out to make the cap work.

Personally, I'd like a little more assurance than Vanek. I genuinely hope he does well, but if I'm giving up a guy in his mid twenties who's under contract and producing like that, then I'd want a better replacement than a 32 year old Vanek on a 1 year contract. Which is why I liked Okposo (which I'm going to drop because it's irrelevant now). Without such a replacement I'd prefer to wait and see what we've got before making any trades. I do agree with all your valuations though. They seem like reasonable deals. I'm just unsure of what we've got right now and would like Nyquist's (or Tatar's) offense in my back pocket going into the season.

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DickieDunn    2,571

DickieDunn
Posted

Saying you don't want to trade Nyquist or Tatar because what they'll do this year or next is too shortterm term for where the team is right now. Barring a miracle trade that brings in elite players at center and D, they're probably not going to be contenders for at least three years. That needs to be the focus off any moves that they make.

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joesuffP    1,746

joesuffP
Posted

Everyone throws out sooooo many hypotheticals around here, I'd rather not stress myself looking at that and look around the league where deals for players we'd want have been made. Taylor Hall and ummm... Ya can't think of any other guys that you describe. In other words elite scorers in their prime. Holland absolutely would have traded Nyquist/Tatar for him but I bet he didn't even get a phone call because they didn't want anybody on the roster

Btw Shattenkirk, Fowler and Trouba still haven't been traded. Obviously theirs more to making these deals then giving up Nyquist and Tatar

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romagoth    47

romagoth
Posted

Trouba is four years younger, is bigger, and has more upside. Fowler is 24, bigger, and still has plenty of room to improve. Dekeyser probably will get better, but not take a big leap forward like either of the younger guys could. I'd move one of Mantha, AA, Tatar, Nyquist plus either Smith or a second rounder for either. If other players were involved, say Scheifele and Trouba for Larkin, Smith, and Marchenko, I'd probably consider doing that too.

You have to give to get, and Holland and several people here don't want to give anything good. Larkin is probably going to be a 65-70 point two way center. AA is probably going to be a second line forward. Mrazek is a probably gong to be a good goalie but who knows, goalies are impossible to really project. Too many things can go wrong with them, and other teams have proven you don't need a top 5 goalie to win the Cup if your team is solid and doesn't give up a ton of prime scoring chances. What you do need is an elite defense man and a couple elite forwards, at least one of whom is a center. Outside of possibly Larkin, Detroit doesn't have those. To hear some people talk though, Larkin is for sure an elite player, AA is going to be almost as good, Dekeyser is a top pair D and maybe even a #1 if he gets a little better, and Mrazek is already one of the top goalies. Most of these are the same people who said they wouldn't have traded Nyquist or Sproul for anything short of Crosby or Ovechkin.

No way is Fowler worth Nyquist or Tatar, and never mind adding another player and a pick. All of the advanced stats show both of these guys as possession monsters on a s***ty possession team and trading either would be a mistake. The mistake people are making is believing either of them (or both) can carry the Wings to a Stanley Cup. The Wings need an elite goal scorer and a #1 center and at least one top-pairing defenseman, preferably two of them. These are not easy fixes, and trading away one or both of the few players on the team who have offensive ability and are still fairly young would be foolish. Especially for a very over-rated Cam Fowler. He is nothing more than another version of Danny DeKeyser and the advanced stats have shown this to be true.

Instead of trading away the few good young players you have (i.e., Nyquist, Tatar, AA, Larkin, Mantha), why not actually let some of the young guys play regularly and see what they can do. If they fail, trade/release them. If they turn into decent contributors, great we didn't lose them in another stupid Adam Oates/Paul MacLean for Tony McKegney/Bernie Federko deal.

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DickieDunn    2,571

DickieDunn
Posted

How about an Eriksson and picks for Chelios, or Primeau and Coffey for Shanahan, or any of the good trades Holland used to pull off? Nyquist and Tatar are what they are, small one dimensional wingers. Pulk is barely an NHL player. AA is likely a second line forward, Dekeyser MIGHT be a #2 with the right #1, everyone else in the D pipeline are 4/5 guys. I'm not saying dump them for nothing or a vet, but if you can move them for a good young player it's stupid not to, even if it's a two for one deal. The team that gets the better player wins because one elite player is more valuable than two secondary players.

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frankgrimes    1,836

frankgrimes
Posted

No way is Fowler worth Nyquist or Tatar, and never mind adding another player and a pick. All of the advanced stats show both of these guys as possession monsters on a s***ty possession team and trading either would be a mistake. The mistake people are making is believing either of them (or both) can carry the Wings to a Stanley Cup. The Wings need an elite goal scorer and a #1 center and at least one top-pairing defenseman, preferably two of them. These are not easy fixes, and trading away one or both of the few players on the team who have offensive ability and are still fairly young would be foolish. Especially for a very over-rated Cam Fowler. He is nothing more than another version of Danny DeKeyser and the advanced stats have shown this to be true.

Instead of trading away the few good young players you have (i.e., Nyquist, Tatar, AA, Larkin, Mantha), why not actually let some of the young guys play regularly and see what they can do. If they fail, trade/release them. If they turn into decent contributors, great we didn't lose them in another stupid Adam Oates/Paul MacLean for Tony McKegney/Bernie Federko deal.

You gott a give to get in the real world (you know outside of excel, json files, nerd findings....), you gotta give to get. Fowler may not be a number 1 defenseman but with the exception of Danny Dekeyser he is better than everything the Wings have. The Wings aren't loaded on the offensive side but still much better than the defensive side of their game. But that mentality is exactly the rason why the Wings are where they ******* are, Holland wants a peace that can help on the defense...(every team does) so the prices are high and his low ball "hockeydeals" aren't going to cut it, period.

Want Trouba? Be ready to pay up and I would pay everything to get that guy.

Want Fowler? It's going to cost Nyquist, Tatar + a midround pick

People that actually watch hockey know that those guys are good players and still young enough to become very good players especially Trouba, plus he's also a Michigan boy which helps creating an identification with the team.

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