Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

[kipwinger 8,492]

Haven't you ever been told that 1 inch makes a difference?

Nah, I'm from Michigan. We tend not to have that problem.

[Dabura 12,206]

[e_prime 1,936]

Bolded part: Good point. Didn't think about it like that..

That package may be a decent starting point.. I think the Jets would want Mantha over AA; which is who I'd rather give up of the two anyway. But there's no way to know for sure unless a deal is reached.

I'd much rather have that trade than mrazek straight up but didn't the jets just extend pavlec? I guess it would all depend on how high they are on Mantha/AA basically but it seems like not enough. Maybe throw in a good draft pick or a swap of draft picks that results in them moving up a round or two.

Nope. He's only there through this year.

Hellebuyck is their Mrazek. Highly regarded prospect, great size, athleticism, and performed very well for them last year. They might want a good vet as a mentor/insurance, but I doubt they'd want Jimmy with his contract.

I know it'd be difficult with our own cap issues, but we could always retain some salary.

Trading Trouba would create a bigger weakness than anything they currently have. Their defense is already weak. I don't see any trade happening that doesn't include a realistic replacement for Trouba going back. Maybe if they get super desperate. But I just don't see a good trade fit between us and them.

Bufyuglien, Trouba, Myers, Enstrom. Folks can Over/Under-Rate Enstrom and Myers as much as they like, but they're still solid top four defensemen. You're right though, Buppy it does drop off considerably from there.

I'm doubtful a trade between Detroit and Winnipeg will happen, but they can make it work if it does become desperate for them. We may not have a "replacement" for Trouba, but we certainly have some promising prospects that will work for them cap-wise now and in the future.

Biggest issue I see: Winnie has an internal cap. They extended Buff till forever with movement clauses, have Enstrom and Stuart locked up for two more years with movement clauses, and then traded for Myers who's cap hit is $5.5 for the next three years.

Where does this leave Trouba? On the outside looking in. Bridge contract? Why? Danny Dekeyser just got a nice healthy raise... why not me?

Also, if Trouba is a no-go, I'd still be willing to take Myers off their hands.

Edited September 2, 2016 by e_prime

[krsmith17 7,191]

kip, I specifically said top pairing defenseman, meaning 1D or 2D. None are available? Says who? Trade talks are not always known to the public, and there are some trades that are made completely out of nowhere, so you can't really say "none are available"... Yes, I do believe that all three of Shattenkirk, Fowler and Trouba are (or will become) top "pair" defensemen. Would I give up a 2nd line winger (of which we have a ton of) for a top pair defenseman (of which we have one of)? Absolutely. Who wouldn't?...

We could stand to lose a top 6 winger, such as Nyquist or Tatar. We need help on the back end, and sometimes you need to overpay to fill a need. You may not be all that high on Trouba, but I think he's the real deal and if given the opportunity (he would in Detroit and I don't believe he has in Winnipeg) he would become a legit top pair defenseman, possibly even a 1D... Personally, I'd be willing to overpay for a player like Trouba...

[joesuffP 1,746]

Problem is Winnipeg already has better wingers than Nyquist and Tatar plus more coming down the line

Mrazek for Trouba + pick is the most realistic imo

[kliq 3,755]

Eichel has the size and skill to become a poor mans version of Mario Lemieux. I don't give a rats ass about how many shots or what shooting percentage a player has. If someone doesn't shoot a lot but scores almost everytime I take that over someone, who shoots a lot but doesn't score. Also I'm not looking down on the analytics I'm just not interested in this stuff. Goals, Assists, Save % for goalies, PIM, Hits and blocked shots are more than enough for me.

You realize that you just said that you dont give a rats ass about shooting percentage, but then in bold you say that you will take a guy with a higher shooting percentage lol.

Low shots/Scores alot = high shooting percentage.........shoots alot, not a lot of goals = low shooting percentage.

My point is not to over hype Larkin, my point is that when it comes to players who are non Wings, you are the king of overhyping (Toews, Eichel, "McJesus", Chychrun etc), But when its a Wing, you go in the opposite direction.

[kipwinger 8,492]

Mrazek is already a better NHL goalie than Trouba is an NHL defenseman. Anybody who is willing to make that trade is dramatically overestimating Jacob Trouba.

[joesuffP 1,746]

I somewhat agree but Mrazek still has a lot to prove imo. I think the wings best option is to just sit tight and hope Vegas takes Howard and Ericsson. I want to see Green and Smith play in the top 4 all year and so how our d looks

[krsmith17 7,191]

I realize that Winnipeg have a solid stable of forwards, and they probably aren't that interested in Nyquist or Tatar. My point is more so that I'd be willing to give up these players, for a player such as Trouba or similar skill set / potential. I'd also do a similar type trade for Faulk in Carolina as well as countless other defensemen around the league. The point is, we need help on the back end. We need another high end defenseman (preferably right handed) to play on the top pair with DeKeyser. To do that, I'd be willing to give up a Nyquist or Tatar...

Vegas can't take Howard AND Ericsson, they can only take one player from each of the 30 teams. Unless there's a trade made, I doubt it will be either of them unless Vegas are trying to hit the cap floor. My bet would be on a player like Sheahan if we're unable to protect him...

[frankgrimes 1,836]

You realize that you just said that you dont give a rats ass about shooting percentage, but then in bold you say that you will take a guy with a higher shooting percentage lol.

Low shots/Scores alot = high shooting percentage.........shoots alot, not a lot of goals = low shooting percentage.

My point is not to over hype Larkin, my point is that when it comes to players who are non Wings, you are the king of overhyping (Toews, Eichel, "McJesus", Chychrun etc), But when its a Wing, you go in the opposite direction.

No, what I've said is that I take the guy who scores. I don't care if it's related to any advanced stats or not, it's just a simple eyetest thing.

Really? I was one of the few guys around pissed of that the Wings traded Chychrun for a (small) chance to make a pitch for Stamkos and what happened? They didn't even get a meeting with him, looks like the *** streak didn't wow him enough. So tell me what you rather have Chychrun or that Cholowski kid or whatever his name is? Keep in mind Chychrun fall because of a shoulder injury but has a ton of potential. If you think Toews is overrated fine, I'd take him over everyone not named Crosby, Stamkos.

Like I've said before if you believe Eichel and Larkin are close...go ahead and make that proposal on the Saberes board and see how that works out. There are lot of players who I believe are overhyped, one would be Austin Matthews he will be a very good player but I also don't think he is McDavid or Eichel good. btw. if Larkin proves me wrong that would be fantastic but I shouldn't have to remind anyone on the ridiculous expectations some people had for Tatar and Nyquist and when people told them to slow down...they've talked about it's better to be optimistic than realistic. How did that work out? I'm for one really happy that both have become solid top 6 guys and trade chips a certain GM should use.

[e_prime 1,936]

Really? I was one of the few guys around pissed of that the Wings traded Chychrun for a (small) chance to make a pitch for Stamkos and what happened? They didn't even get a meeting with him, looks like the *** streak didn't wow him enough. So tell me what you rather have Chychrun or that Cholowski kid or whatever his name is? Keep in mind Chychrun fall because of a shoulder injury but has a ton of potential. If you think Toews is overrated fine, I'd take him over everyone not named Crosby, Stamkos.

No. The Wings traded the pick that was Chychrun so that we could alleviate Datsyuk's cap hit. Yes, we were hoping that we could make a pitch for Stammer by opening up that space, but to say that we traded that pick SOLELY to make a pitch to Stamkos is ridiculous.

Edited September 2, 2016 by e_prime

[kickazz 5,459]

Nah, I'm from Michigan. We tend not to have that problem.

Lmao

[kickazz 5,459]

I thought it was the other way around, honestly. He's a plug. Just happens to be a young plug.

He's as good or better than most of our D-men at least when looking at his age. Edited September 2, 2016 by kickazz

[kliq 3,755]

No, what I've said is that I take the guy who scores. I don't care if it's related to any advanced stats or not, it's just a simple eyetest thing.

Really? I was one of the few guys around pissed of that the Wings traded Chychrun for a (small) chance to make a pitch for Stamkos and what happened? They didn't even get a meeting with him, looks like the *** streak didn't wow him enough. So tell me what you rather have Chychrun or that Cholowski kid or whatever his name is? Keep in mind Chychrun fall because of a shoulder injury but has a ton of potential. If you think Toews is overrated fine, I'd take him over everyone not named Crosby, Stamkos.

Like I've said before if you believe Eichel and Larkin are close...go ahead and make that proposal on the Saberes board and see how that works out. There are lot of players who I believe are overhyped, one would be Austin Matthews he will be a very good player but I also don't think he is McDavid or Eichel good. btw. if Larkin proves me wrong that would be fantastic but I shouldn't have to remind anyone on the ridiculous expectations some people had for Tatar and Nyquist and when people told them to slow down...they've talked about it's better to be optimistic than realistic. How did that work out? I'm for one really happy that both have become solid top 6 guys and trade chips a certain GM should use.

Frank, do you understand what shooting percentage is? The guy who scores will have a high shooting percentage, unless he is just taking an absurd amount of shots. You always reference "The ol eye ball test", unless you are watching all of these players play 82 games a year, all you are doing is forming strong opinions based on small sample sizes. You can't watch a highlight on sports centre and become an expert on these players. By the way, like I referenced earlier, Larkin and Eichel were 1 goal apart.

I don't understand how the streak or Stamkos have anything to do with what I am saying. I am not saying that these players are bad, I am saying that you are a person who seems to get really upset whenever someone hypes up a Wing, yet you do the same thing with your personal favorites as long as they are not Wings. I have heard you talk about Chychrun countless times in the last 6 months, whether its calling him a beast, the next coming etc. However I dont believe I have ever heard you post anything in a positive tone regarding Mrazek or Larkin as when its a Wing your tone drastically changes to a very pessimistic negative one.

Going back to my original argument, Larkin has done nothing but produce at the same level as Eichel since they started yet you will not give him credit for that and continue to create a narrative that they are world's apart which is simply untrue. Eichel may very well become a better player, but lets not distort facts from the present.

Edited September 2, 2016 by kliq

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Frank, do you understand what shooting percentage is? The guy who scores will have a high shooting percentage, unless he is just taking an absurd amount of shots. You always reference "The ol eye ball test", unless you are watching all of these players play 82 games a year, all you are doing is forming strong opinions based on small sample sizes. You can't watch a highlight on sports centre and become an expert on these players. By the way, like I referenced earlier, Larkin and Eichel were 1 goal apart.

I don't understand how the streak or Stamkos have anything to do with what I am saying. I am not saying that these players are bad, I am saying that you are a person who seems to get really upset whenever someone hypes up a Wing, yet you do the same thing with your personal favorites as long as they are not Wings. I have heard you talk about Chychrun countless times in the last 6 months, whether its calling him a beast, the next coming etc. However I dont believe I have ever heard you post anything in a positive tone regarding Mrazek or Larkin as when its a Wing your tone drastically changes to a very pessimistic negative one.

Going back to my original argument, Larkin has done nothing but produce at the same level as Eichel since they started yet you will not give him credit for that and continue to create a narrative that they are world's apart which is simply untrue. Eichel may very well become a better player, but lets not distort facts from the present.

I've constantly said Larkin is the closest thing the Wings have to become a number 1 center. If not overhyping him is being pessimistic so be it. Never ever did I claim to be an expert but I know what type of players I prefer and if I want to look deeper in it, where to find their goals, assists and whatever.

Well it's not my fault that Holland decided to trade Chychrun away, he would have instantly been the best defensive prospect the Wings have and something that would have been much needed. Just watch him develop and you will see why I believe the Wings made a mistake trading the pick, as did a lot of other teams by not taking him.

Saying that someone is not at the same level, doesn't mean I'm pessimistic it means I'm looking at things rationally. Eichel as great as he is isn't on McDavid level (that guy is just ridiculous), does that mean that Eichel is bad? Heck no, same goes for Larkin there is no shame in maybe not becoming as good as Eichel. Mrazek played one heck of a first half but then really fall of. I'm not going to hype any young goaltender as the next Vezina winner or whatever ridiculous expectations some people are having. And like I've already said I HOPE you are right and Larkin becomes as good as Eichel that would be awesome but I think expecting it is setting yourself up for disappointment, this season will be very telling...I just hope the Wings continue to let him develop at a slow pace instead of making him the number 1 center alredy. If people think Mrazek might be a Vezina winner in the making fine, I think they are setting themselves up for dissapointment.

As far as liking players: well did I ever say a bad word about Dekeyser? I'm one of the few people who thought he has been our best defenseman and yet he gets blamed for not being offensive enough...

[DickieDunn 2,571]

20-25 goals isn't great, it's pretty realistic. The people who were saying he'd score 30 or 40 were predicting greatness, awake with the people calling Larkin Toews with speed and taking about how elite he is/will be, or AA can't be traded unless they get OEL or some established Norris candidate.

[LeftWinger 4,934]

I simply said I'd I'm trading a top prospect, it'll be Mantha way before AA. I'd rather keep them both, but I am not trading AA unless it involves someone even better than Trouba is projected to be. Mantha I'd trade for Trouba. That's just how I value the two, AA is more valuable to my team than Mantha if I have to use one in a deal.

[kipwinger 8,492]

20-25 goals isn't great, it's pretty realistic. The people who were saying he'd score 30 or 40 were predicting greatness, awake with the people calling Larkin Toews with speed and taking about how elite he is/will be, or AA can't be traded unless they get OEL or some established Norris candidate.

Or like the people talking about Trouba and Fowler like they're already legit 1D instead of moderately good players with some potential?

You're doing the same exact thing your chastizing others for.

[NerveDamage 4,176]

True - however there's always the distinct possibility either player could get better, or worse as they continue their respective years.

I would've placed Mrazek into the 'untouchables' category had he not pooped his bed in the 2nd half of last season.

I blame kickazz on that one

[kipwinger 8,492]

True - however there's always the distinct possibility either player could get better, or worse as they continue their respective years.

I would've placed Mrazek into the 'untouchables' category had he not pooped his bed in the 2nd half of last season.

Which is why trading for someone in hopes that they'll get better is dangerous. Trouba, for instance, has played well over 200 games and gotten worse since his rookie year. Fowler too. So its pretty dangerous to trade your future #1 goalie based on that track record.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

We simply don't know what we'll have with Larkin yet, but last year was very encouraging - especially for a first year pro. I don't think that one year tells us much of the player he'll become, though. We'll have to see where his trajectory goes from there.

I really haven't seen anyone call Larkin elite yet. I think he has the skillset to get there. As well as being close to Eichel's 1st year, he also measures up pretty well against some elite players for a first year in the league. Before people jump on me, I'm not saying that he'll be on the level of these players. I'm saying he did fine for his first year. We can only hope that he gets near the level of some of these guys.

1st year Pro/in the NHL:

Larkin: 80gp, 23g, 45pts

Toews: 64gp, 24g, 54pts (of course less games and more points, but similar goals)

Seguin: 74gp, 11g, 22pts

Stamkos: 79gp, 23g, 46pts

Benn: 82gp, 22g, 41pts

Bergeron: 71gp,16g, 39pts

D Sedin: 75gp, 20g, 35pts

The unfair part about looking at this, of course, is usage since Larkin played 1st line while some of these players started on lower lines - just thought they were interesting to look at for comparison.

This year, Datsyuk's TOI will be up for grabs and he'll be more adjusted to the league and the tough schedule - I think for sure he'll take a big step forward.

Edited September 2, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[NerveDamage 4,176]

PVD, had McDavid not been injured, do you think Larkin would've had that much attention towards him at the All-Star week?

I think that because of his performance in the first half of the season, all eyes were on him and a we started expecting more form him. and then he settled into his own pace.

With those numbers, and players on the list, gives us a bit of hope we have a great player in our ranks.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

I don't know about the McDavid effect and I didn't watch any All-Star stuff, but his early performance definitely drew the spotlight.

I think his late season dip was due to the grind of the 82 game schedule that he'd never done before. There are definitely players who never produce consistently for the full season, though, (Franzen, Z most years) and have that low each season so we'll see which category he falls into. Due to his consistent effort, speed, and creativity I think he'll be more of a consistent producers, though.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Or like the people talking about Trouba and Fowler like they're already legit 1D instead of moderately good players with some potential?

You're doing the same exact thing your chastizing others for.

Where did I say either were already #1s?

[kickazz 5,459]

Where did I say either were already #1s?

Fowler will never be a top 2. And if a player isn't top 2 (something we need) then trading assets for him doesn't make any sense. Unless you think he is or will be top 2... and if you do then you're hyping him.

Edited September 2, 2016 by kickazz