Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

[krsmith17 7,191]

It would be Ericsson for me, not even close...

[kickazz 5,459]

FORWARD. Please read the post before arguing it. And just because he's a center in juniors and the minors doesn't mean he will be a center in the NHL. Besides, the point remains, second top pair D is more valuable than a second line forward, be it a center or winger.

Oh lol, I read it as Winger. Who said AA is a 2nd liner anyway? I mean he would end up being Larkin's wing on 1st line in a year for all we know. Too early to judge still probably. Played only 35 or so games. You underestimate AA and overestimate Fowler, we're going to disagree on this for the entire season and beyond.

If you could have Ken Holland deal any one player from the roster BEFORE the season starts and not considering the return, meaning, it's better to have them off the team than on -- Who would it be and why?

Not sure anymore with the injuries piling up. I want to say Ericsson for the salary dump. Maybe Miller. Howard should stay because of Mrazek's inconsistency he's shown the last two years but if he was moved, I wouldn't be upset. My mind might change in a month though.

Edited September 5, 2016 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

Wasn't Darren Helm also a natural center? Didn't he play 2nd line winger? Aren't we all Darren Helm?

No we aren't. Only I am.

I am Darren Helm.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

No way we should offer trouba an offer sheet.

Even if we could.

He has a high ceiling, but not high enough to make everything else work.

We don't have/can't afford the picks, plus the money it would cost us would be worth more than his actual play has dictated.

Fowler is high risk/high reward because he's been on a team with amazing depth on the back end.

So he looks like AT LEAST a #2 on the ducks, either we get him snd he's Jeff petry, in which case he's still needed, or he's a solid top pairing guy, which we still need.

After the Larsson/hall swap either one of those options is worth nyquist plus something else.

Not aa, because aa will be a solid top 6 winger, or a 2/3 c, which we still need for the future.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Fowler played top pair minutes on a team that was better than Detroit. Pretty hard to find a legitimate argument that he's only a second pair guy and will never be more at 24 years old. AA had a good half season or so for a rookie, all projections have him as a second line guy, if not a third liner.

[Buppy 1,720]

Fowler played top pair minutes on a team that was better than Detroit. Pretty hard to find a legitimate argument that he's only a second pair guy and will never be more at 24 years old. AA had a good half season or so for a rookie, all projections have him as a second line guy, if not a third liner.

I don't disagree that Fowler can be considered a top-pair D (low-end at least), but the argument is that he does play on a good team. Very deep defense that rolls 3 solid pairs pretty evenly. In Detroit, where he might bear the brunt of the toughest defensive assignments, he might be exposed. His advanced stats are near the bottom for the Ducks. And even though he's young, after 6 full years it's hard to imagine he'll get any better.

And you keep responding to comments about AA as if it's a straight "AA for Fowler/Trouba" proposal. I'd think even the biggest AA fans would do that, if they were convinced it was the only option. But people don't want to add AA to a package that already includes Nyquist/Tatar. And they shouldn't. A prime-aged, proven top-6 winger plus a top prospect is a star-level package. Fowler and Trouba are not stars. Nyquist and Tatar are as close to star-status as Fowler and Trouba. There's no reason we should, or should have to, include any of our top-prospects.

I'll say again, if Murray thinks so little of Nyquist/Tatar that we'd have to add AA (or Mantha/Svech) rather than a second-tier prospect/pick, then he probably wouldn't be interested in the trade at all. They aren't rebuilding. Quantity is not going to trump quality. And unless Winnipeg is planning a flurry of trades this year, they aren't going to want two more young forwards to try to somehow protect, much less weaken an already weak defense to do it.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I don't think it would take AA and Nyquist both, unles something else came back with Fowler. I'd guess more like one of Nyquist/Tatar/Mantha/AA plus a lesser asset like Smith or a younger D. Even if it was Nyquist and AA I think it would be worth it to upgrade the D though. Like I said, it's a black hole with non help in sight barring a trade

Edited September 5, 2016 by DickieDunn

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

I know we're in love with our prospects, and the leagueis in love eith youth, but mantha and aa's value is nowhere near nikes or tats.

They're proven goal 25+ goal scorers.

Nyquist holds the most value to MOST teams since he's signed for the next 3 years at a reasonable cap hit, but to a team like Anaheim with an internal budget the year left before rfa makes tats more valuable.

Cost controlled assets, and they're weak on the wing. I would give up nyquist before tatar just because of tatar possession numbers, even though he gives the puck away a fair amount. But I'd easily give up tats or nyquist for fowler...

The add on from our side would depend on who we sent, but it wouldn't be a top prospect, imo. maybe a 2nd/3rd round pick and a b/c level prospect but i Dont see it costing more than that as long as we're giving up something cheaper than fowlers salary, especially since Anaheim needs to re-sign Lindholm and Rakell.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

I know we're in love with our prospects, and the leagueis in love eith youth, but mantha and aa's value is nowhere near nikes or tats.

They're proven goal 25+ goal scorers.

simple: offense wins games, defense championships.

Wings biggest need is defense and Fowler, Trouba are the closest running for immediate help. Still young enough to be in their prime when this team finally has some top picks on the roster.

No, they aren't elite but the point is elite guys like Ekblad are drafted and not available. Tatar, Nyquist do have the most value of all forwards who aren't prospects but yeah wings need to add if they want Trouba or Fowler. Especially Trouba is hard because the Jets are stacked at the forward position so other than Larkin I highly doubt Cheveldayoff will be interested in anything the Wings can trade for him.

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

simple: offense wins games, defense championships.

Wings biggest need is defense and Fowler, Trouba are the closest running for immediate help. Still young enough to be in their prime when this team finally has some top picks on the roster.

No, they aren't elite but the point is elite guys like Ekblad are drafted and not available. Tatar, Nyquist do have the most value of all forwards who aren't prospects but yeah wings need to add if they want Trouba or Fowler. Especially Trouba is hard because the Jets are stacked at the forward position so other than Larkin I highly doubt Cheveldayoff will be interested in anything the Wings can trade for him.

Except that after Pittsburgh wins the cup your argument about defense winning championships becomes less valid. It Kay be true some of the time. But not always.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Euro_Twins

[e_prime 1,936]

simple: I highly doubt Cheveldayoff will be interested in anything the Wings can trade for him.

This is all of our Trouba trade talk summed up nicely. Thanks frank.

[LeftWinger 4,958]

I'll say it again, if someone tenders Trouba, and winnipeg doesn't match, ALL they get is a 1st and a 3rd in return. (if the salary stays under $6M-ish)

Who wouldn't offer a 1st and 3rd for Trouba? Probably only a lottery team that may have a chance at a #1 pick overall...heck even a #5 pick may be too much. But teams in the 10-30 range would most definitely feel that its worth trading for Trouba.

That being said, if Holland offered Mantha, XO, 1st and 3rd pick, Winnipeg would be retarted to not take that deal. Holland would be retared to not offer that deal. If some other team wants to give anything more than that, then they are crazy. Not saying there won't be a team out there to offer them more, but I really cannot see a return that can be worth more, unless there's a GM that's just nuts.

Mantha, XO (or Sproul) 1st round, 3rd round gets you Trouba, every day of the year and 6,000 times on Sunday. Problem is, even though Holland knows we need this upgrade on D, he would in no way trade those draft picks, even though we'd be getting a 22 year old, plus have plenty of prospects to where we can skip a draft without having a 1st round pick. It will not hurt the prospects to not have a 1st and 3rd this season. We can get a good enough player in the 2nd to add to the pool we have. Make the trade, with Trouba coming back and most likely signing a 6-8 year deal, and with the likes of AA, Bertuzzi, Svech, Turgeon, we have plenty of kids to develope more even without two new ones, and we really wouldn't miss Mantha too much, especially getting the player we need to fill a huge hole in our D.

If Holland had balls, he could offer enough to pull off both Trouba and Fowler. We have the assets, and assets teams would want, despite what some folks think. Nyquist, Smith and a pick would more than get you Fowler, we wouldn't miss (too much) any of those guys. AA has already proven that given the same icetime and responsibilty of Nyquist, he can outscore him. The pick could be a conditional, or low round pick, since its Fowler. Holland just will not part with the players mentioned, even though they are replaceable from within the system, PLUS you're getting Trouba and Fowler for the rest of their career's more than likely! Kronner is pretty much done, Green only has 2 more years on his deal, Howard (if not claimed) can safely be bought out with minimal damage to the cap. We'd have plenty of cap space to have DD, Trouba and Fowler all making between $5M and $7M.

DD - $5M

Fowler - $6M

Trouba - $7M

Holland has to make this team better. When Kronwall goes down and is in and out all season long, we will be more screwed than we are now...

[e_prime 1,936]

Mantha, XO (or Sproul) 1st round, 3rd round gets you Trouba,

If Holland had balls, he could offer enough to pull off both Trouba and Fowler.

That's a lot for Trouba. It should get the deal done, but I don't think Holland makes that kind of offer.

I think we should hold on to that 1st rounder. I don't want to write off a season before it's even begun, but I think that number one pick might be a bit higher than usual and/or has more value closer to the draft than at the beginning of the season.

You know damn well he does not.

Edited September 5, 2016 by e_prime

[frankgrimes 1,836]

This is all of our Trouba trade talk summed up nicely. Thanks frank.

yeah that's the problem thanks to Winnipeg winning the lottery with Laine

realistically it would take Larkin plus which means fixing a hole to create another one. Mantha wouldn't have a chance to make their top 6 because they are so loaded. XO/Sproul is me ....The first rounder could turn out to be a top 10 pick (one can at least hope). Toronto, Columbus, New Jersey, Vancouver, Hurricanes and Arizona are Cleary worse for now...so this pick could be the best one in years.

[kliq 3,755]

You got to love it how what we need to give up for Trouba goes from Smith/Pulkkinen/Sheahan/XO to Larkin plus.

Can we please stop going to extremes lol and just be a little bit more realistic with our discussion.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

You got to love it how what we need to give up for Trouba goes from Smith/Pulkkinen/Sheahan/XO to Larkin plus.

Can we please stop going to extremes lol and just be a little bit more realistic with our discussion.

Put yourself into Winnipeg's situation: they are loaded upfront and really don't need any help. Cheveldayof knows exactly how desperate the Wings - and others teams are - to get that top 4 defenseman, which Trouba obviously is. So of course the price goes up, a quality for quantity trade doesn't work under such circumstances. MAYBE if the discussion break of and Overhardt makes it known that his client wants out...then the price could drop.

At the end it doesn't really matter it's getting closer to the start of the season and the Wings need defensive help, so Holland has to work his butt of to make it happen, simply as that.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

A couple years ago I would be up in arms over holland not trading for a dman - but at this point i don't even care. Trouba makes so much sense as did many dmen in the past. Its the same old story. He has shown zero interest in making this team a viable contender and only wants to limp into the playoffs. I have never been less excited or proud as a wings fan and this offseason has solidified that.

[Jacksoni 418]

It's September and training camp is on it's way. I find it unlikely that a trade will be done this late. If you ask me, what we have is what we got.

And perhaps more can be done with what we have. We do have new assistant coaches and a few defense men that could take a step or two forward. They have been discussed extensively in here, no names needed.

I would not give up any first round pick for a trade as I think it will be our highest pick in 25 years. I would love to be wrong but given so many aging players, injuries and lack of established corps in key positions it is a simple logical assumption for me.

However whatever the outcome, I'll be watching and rooting for the Wings. In fact our home jersey #71 is freshly washed and hanging on my wall right beside me. I'll be wearing it on the ice Wednesday.

[LeftWinger 4,958]

You got to love it how what we need to give up for Trouba goes from Smith/Pulkkinen/Sheahan/XO to Larkin plus.

Can we please stop going to extremes lol and just be a little bit more realistic with our discussion.

Mantha, XO, 1st, 3rd gets Trouba all day. Very realistic, very doable, both teams win. If Winnipeg doesn't match a $5.5M offer sheet all they get in return in the picks. Trade them those picks and upgrade the package with our top O prospect and one our top D prospects.

Winnipeg would be stupid not to snatched that deal up. Problem is, Holland is too stupid to offer that deal.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Mantha, XO, 1st, 3rd gets Trouba all day. Very realistic, very doable, both teams win. If Winnipeg doesn't match a $5.5M offer sheet all they get in return in the picks. Trade them those picks and upgrade the package with our top O prospect and one our top D prospects.

Winnipeg would be stupid not to snatched that deal up. Problem is, Holland is too stupid to offer that deal.

No matter how often you claim it would, I highly highly doubt it.

Mantha - doesn't make their top 6 because they are so stacked

XO - third pairing defenseman ==> no interest for Winnipeg

3 rd pick - doesn't help them at all

first 1 round pick - only piece of interest and since the Jets don't know exactly which position that would be they might have some interest but man this is going to best pick in 25 years, could be a top 10 maybe even top 5 pick.

Laine made the whole trading for Trouba situation much more complicated as much as I would love to have him on this team, Fowler seems to be a bit more realistic at this point.

A couple years ago I would be up in arms over holland not trading for a dman - but at this point i don't even care. Trouba makes so much sense as did many dmen in the past. Its the same old story. He has shown zero interest in making this team a viable contender and only wants to limp into the playoffs. I have never been less excited or proud as a wings fan and this offseason has solidified that.

I'm with you, it's just apathy there is no clear direction, no stars left, a pussysoft team that doesn't hit, fit or even block shots... the only hope would be Larkin continuing his insane development path and hopefully a top 10 pick. It's really sad this once so proud franchise is held back by a meaningless streak and a GM who is happy to just make the playoffs, instead of building a real Stanley Cup contender...wouldn't surprise if that played into Babcock's decision to leave too. But the guy I really feel sorry for is Blashill, his second season and no number 1 center, no number 1 defenseman on the team even if the Wings end up as a bottom 5 team I wouldn't blame him because coaching this team into anything even near a playoff spot would be a miracle.

Edited September 5, 2016 by frankgrimes

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Every off season takes years off Frank and Lefty's lives lol

You guys need to relax and quit talking extremes with absolutely everything.

Winnipeg knows Detroit is desperate? Well Holland also knows Winnipeg has an asset that won't sign. It works both ways.

If Trouba is going to get traded for, there will be a sizable contract going the other way. The salary cap does exist and we are at the limit. This whole idea of Trouba for Mantha, XO and picks makes ZERO sense.

You don't have to be an "excel nerd" to figure that one out. And no you can't just throw Helm in...

[kickazz 5,459]

You don't have to be an "excel nerd" to figure that one out.

Just have to be an ancient 70 year old simple minded person who believes the earth is still the center of the universe and blindly follow the greek god statue of Zeus... err I mean what TSN has to say.

Edited September 5, 2016 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Trouba for Mrazek.

Or Howard and Smith for Trouba and their worst contract

But seriously, in the cap era Holland has made two trades that weren't for rentals or just throwaways like Huskins and Commodore. Both were draft picks or low level prospect

Edited September 5, 2016 by DickieDunn

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Every off season takes years off Frank and Lefty's lives lol

You guys need to relax and quit talking extremes with absolutely everything.

Winnipeg knows Detroit is desperate? Well Holland also knows Winnipeg has an asset that won't sign. It works both ways.

If Trouba is going to get traded for, there will be a sizable contract going the other way. The salary cap does exist and we are at the limit. This whole idea of Trouba for Mantha, XO and picks makes ZERO sense.

You don't have to be an "excel nerd" to figure that one out. And no you can't just throw Helm in...

Nope, it doesn't like I said it's just apathy. Would I have loved Trouba, Fowler on the team? For sure but after saying something and then doing the exact opposite on July 1 I knew it would be a long summer and upcoming season.

Ok so Holland knows that Trouba won't sign do you think he is the only one after him if he really does want out? All Cheveldayof has to do is make it public and then you have a bidding war. Whatever the holdup is I think Winnipeg will regret it, if they lose this guy.

[kliq 3,755]

Nope, it doesn't like I said it's just apathy. Would I have loved Trouba, Fowler on the team? For sure but after saying something and then doing the exact opposite on July 1 I knew it would be a long summer and upcoming season.

Ok so Holland knows that Trouba won't sign do you think he is the only one after him if he really does want out? All Cheveldayof has to do is make it public and then you have a bidding war. Whatever the holdup is I think Winnipeg will regret it, if they lose this guy.

It's always somewhere in middle Frank. You are making it sound like Trouba is an elite d-man right now, he is not going to get Winnipeg a guy like Larkin (not to mention "Larkin as a starting point". You have a history of overestimating a players value, this is just you doing it again.

With that being said, he is going to get a lot more then second/third liners and d-men. Until he is signed, this is going to be interesting.

Every off season takes years off Frank and Lefty's lives lol

You guys need to relax and quit talking extremes with absolutely everything.

Winnipeg knows Detroit is desperate? Well Holland also knows Winnipeg has an asset that won't sign. It works both ways.

If Trouba is going to get traded for, there will be a sizable contract going the other way. The salary cap does exist and we are at the limit. This whole idea of Trouba for Mantha, XO and picks makes ZERO sense.

You don't have to be an "excel nerd" to figure that one out. And no you can't just throw Helm in...

This will never change lol, every year its the same doom and gloom approach, every year its the same "all of our players are crap, we will be lucky to not be in the bottom 5 in the league" mentality, and every year this is just wrong. This team definitely has a ways to go as we need to make the jump from fringe playoff team o contender as the re-build has failed to bring us a star d-man in the making (though DD is a great second pairing guy). At this point I do think that we need to trade one of our many forwards for a guy like Trouba.