Official 2016 Detroit Red Wings Offseason Thread

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

This is where we disagree, I see Larkin as a very good player... maybe OUR best center. BUT not a top center in the league. Much the way Kronwall is our #1D but isn't a true #1D, and as time passes he may not even be a true #2D at this point.

Hence the word 'potential' that I used. Very few players in the NHL are 1st line centers in their first or second year in the league. I think he'll get to that level - maybe you think he'll stay at his current level - we haven't even seen him play much center so we'll see.

Edit: Regardless, you said he was like a lot of our other players and him as a 6'2" very fast well rounded center puts him as something we don't have elsewhere (maybe AA, but most project a lower ceiling for him), let alone the fact that he's the first player to make the team at 19 in such a long time.

Edited September 25, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Lids probably helped Kronwell look better than he is.

Maybe in the sense that it allowed him to play on the 2nd pair, but they pretty much never played together, if that's what you meant.

I think Lids actually think made Kronwall look worse because people point of comparison was one of the best Dmen of all time. I think Kronwall was a fine #1 when he first made the switch, but injuries have quickly taken him off that level in recent years.

[kipwinger 8,518]

Maybe in the sense that it allowed him to play on the 2nd pair, but they pretty much never played together, if that's what you meant.

I think Lids actually think made Kronwall look worse because people point of comparison was one of the best Dmen of all time. I think Kronwall was a fine #1 when he first made the switch, but injuries have quickly taken him off that level in recent years.

Agreed. It's fashionable to paint Kronwall as a career #2 guy who was in above his head, but that definitely wasn't the case. His defense, point production, and powerplay contributions easily made him a legit #1 for a few years there. If you can man the powerplay, play 20+ minutes a night, and score 40+ points a season you're a legit top defenseman. Was he as good as Doughty, or Keith, or Subban? No, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a top guy.

[brett 1,029]

id think about un canceling my subscription to watch the wings if they signed trouba

dont call me a bandwagon fan either. i dont plan to watch this year because i think its going to be a bad year. worse than last and i put too much emotion into the games to be pissed off every game

[kipwinger 8,518]

Nah, they'll be better than they were a year ago; provided they get the roster and usage issues sorted out. We're a little weak on defense, but our forward corps and goalie situation are in good shape. I'd expect bounce back seasons from Tatar, Nyquist, Green (although he wasn't bad), a step forward from Larkin and AA, and about the same from Z, Abby, Neilsein, and Vanek. I'm really curious about whether getting Helm back in the middle will help, and how Sheahan will look on the wing though.

[mackel 679]

Agreed. It's fashionable to paint Kronwall as a career #2 guy who was in above his head, but that definitely wasn't the case. His defense, point production, and powerplay contributions easily made him a legit #1 for a few years there. If you can man the powerplay, play 20+ minutes a night, and score 40+ points a season you're a legit top defenseman. Was he as good as Doughty, or Keith, or Subban? No, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a top guy.

He wasn't a top guy, he was our top guy... these are two very different things.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

He wasn't a top guy, he was our top guy... these are two very different things.

Top guy and #1 Dman are also two very different things.

[kipwinger 8,518]

He would have been the 1D on most NHL teams between 2009 and 2014. Sure there were some better 1D in the league, but not that many. I'd say he was somewhere between the 10th and 15th best defenseman in the league over that period. He wasn't elite, no, but neither are a lot of 1D.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Kronwall spent most of his best years behind Lidstrom, getting second PP second pairing minutes and still put up some pretty good numbers. The fact that they could put him and Stuart on the second pair is what made them so hard to play against.

As far as Trouba goes, if they want a center, offer up AA as part of the deal.

Of course we all know Holland won't do anything that involves trading someone who isn't a fringe NHLer or an unhappy prospect. The last time he traded a good roster player was the Hasek deal when he moved Kozlov all the way back in '01.

[Andy Pred 48 337]

Smith Helm Russo Mantha and a 2nd for Trouba & Connor

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Third pair d, third line center, second tier prospect, another prospect the organization has talked down, and a second doesn't touch Trouba. It also doesn't clear enough cap to sign Trouba. That's if Helm waives his NTC

Edited September 26, 2016 by DickieDunn

[kliq 3,755]

Third pair d, third line center, second tier prospect, another prospect the organization has talked down, and a second doesn't touch Trouba. It also doesn't clear enough cap to sign Trouba. That's if Helm waives his NTC

Agreed it doesnt get Trouba, but how high of a cap-hit do you think he will be? Helm and Smith alone are 6.6 million.

[mackel 679]

Agreed it doesnt get Trouba, but how high of a cap-hit do you think he will be? Helm and Smith alone are 6.6 million.

Interesting question isn't it... assuming the Wings were interested in Trouba and had the assets to trade for him, our cap situation makes keeping him or anyone else difficult. With a number of over commitments to replaceable players like Big E, Helm, Howard, etc. Holland's cap and roster management skills are questionable, is Helm really a core player? I ask because we've committed to him as though he is.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Interesting question isn't it... assuming the Wings were interested in Trouba and had the assets to trade for him, our cap situation makes keeping him or anyone else difficult. With a number of over commitments to replaceable players like Big E, Helm, Howard, etc. Holland's cap and roster management skills are questionable, is Helm really a core player? I ask because we've committed to him as though he is.

No, he's not, despite the insistence that "his speed alone is worth $3 mil a year" by some people.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Yes, he is, despite the insistence that "production is the only determining factor in a players worth, because f*** intangibles" by some people...

If we were able to trade for Trouba, I don't think finding cap space would be an issue at all. He's made it very clear that this is not just about money, it's more so to do with opportunity and role on the team. I don't think there would be any reason Trouba wouldn't take a one or two year deal on the cheap, knowing that he would get paid after that. He would instantly be our number one defenseman and play in all situations, and I believe when he says that's the most important thing to him.

[krsmith17 7,191]

What about some sort of three way deal involving both Anaheim and Winnipeg? Something along the lines of...

To ANA: Nyquist, Marchenko

To WPG: Fowler, 1st round pick (DET)

To DET - Trouba

Anaheim gets their top 6 winger. Winnipeg gets their top 4 left handed defenseman. Detroit gets their top 4 right handed defenseman... I'm not sure if the value in and out would be good for each team, but I don't think it's that far off...

[Nyquistfan14 489]

What about some sort of three way deal involving both Anaheim and Winnipeg? Something along the lines of...

To ANA: Nyquist, Marchenko

To WPG: Fowler, 1st round pick (DET)

To DET - Trouba

Anaheim gets their top 6 winger. Winnipeg gets their top 4 left handed defenseman. Detroit gets their top 4 right handed defenseman... I'm not sure if the value in and out would be good for each team, but I don't think it's that far off...

I think it would go through but we could be giving up too much, maybe have oullete in there instead of marchy

[krsmith17 7,191]

Anyone know if the Red and White game is available online anywhere the same way the Prospects Tournament was?

[Nyquistfan14 489]

Anyone know if the Red and White game is available online anywhere the same way the Prospects Tournament was?

Ya i was wondering this too

[kliq 3,755]

No, he's not, despite the insistence that "his speed alone is worth $3 mil a year" by some people.

You never answered the question Dickie. If Helm/Smith are clearing up 6.6 million in that trade proposal and you claim that's not enough cap space for Trouba, what do you think Trouba will sign for?

[Jacksoni 418]

Whatever above that he'd sign for, it is simply too much for a 22 year old who might be supreme in the future. I'd rather take my chances and start picking in the top 5 for a couple of years. A lot of cursing would transpire during those years but no way in hell he's getting that money - yet. Has to show more.

5-6 mill, I'm fine with.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

You never answered the question Dickie. If Helm/Smith are clearing up 6.6 million in that trade proposal and you claim that's not enough cap space for Trouba, what do you think Trouba will sign for?

Trouba gets 6, leaving 600k to replace Helm. Not enough. That also ignores the fact that Helm has a NTC, and the Jets are more likely interested in a top 6 caliber center, not Helm.

Yes, he is, despite the insistence that "production is the only determining factor in a players worth, because f*** intangibles" by some people...

If we were able to trade for Trouba, I don't think finding cap space would be an issue at all. He's made it very clear that this is not just about money, it's more so to do with opportunity and role on the team. I don't think there would be any reason Trouba wouldn't take a one or two year deal on the cheap, knowing that he would get paid after that. He would instantly be our number one defenseman and play in all situations, and I believe when he says that's the most important thing to him.

Intangibles are only worth so much, and don't make someone a core player without production to go with it.

Edited September 26, 2016 by DickieDunn

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Penalty killing ability is pretty tangible when you're in close games (which we will be often again this year). Ability to win faceoffs is an essential part of winning in todays game - Helm back at center will supply that. Speed does matter. Forechecking pressure matters. Ability to move from center to wing up and down the lineup is important for finding line combos whenever we need to change things up. And he does produce as a secondary scorer. He's overpayed, but this is not a player like Emmerton we're talking about here.

We're not paying him like a core player. I saw someone else say that and it looks like it's caught on. If we could get a core player for 3.8 we wouldn't be worrying about how to fit in Trouba's caphit as earlier on this page

Edited September 26, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Whatever above that he'd sign for, it is simply too much for a 22 year old who might be supreme in the future. I'd rather take my chances and start picking in the top 5 for a couple of years. A lot of cursing would transpire during those years but no way in hell he's getting that money - yet. Has to show more.

5-6 mill, I'm fine with.

According to some here that's not the plan in the near future and even Holland himself said so. I don't like the outlook but under those circumstances yeah Trouba has to be a top top priority how often does a young (potential) number 1 defenseman become available?

Let's take Ekblad as the benchmark here he signed a 8 year, 7,5 AAV contract Trouba is older and not as good as him so something around 6,5 for 8 years would be a steal for the guy. Cheveldayoff will regret letting this guy go.

As good as Larkin and I think he has the same leadership-aura around him as captain serious does (not saying he will be as elite) but Holland has to at least consider it given the return would be a much needed top 4 RHD who is also young.

[LeftWinger 4,949]

Larkin is a no. That's even according to a lot of insiders.

They wouldn't get many better offers than Mantha, Nyquist, Smith, XO. If they wanted the 1st round pick, then you could leave Mantha off the trade.