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HockeytownRules19

Ownership shows Support for Kenny Holland

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Other than Stamkos it's a pretty weak class

If you think this class is weak, wait until next year. Lots of 35+ players contracts expiring and not much else. Hedman will be a UFA next year, but I can't imagine he'll make it that far especially if Stamkos does leave TB.

Unless a team is looking for depth (we aren't) free agency is not the way to go. We need a legit top pairing defenseman, and there's just not any available in this years UFA class. Yandle is the closest thing to a top pair defenseman available, but I think even he's a solid second pair. Trading is the right way to go, and we have the assets to acquire a legit top pair defenseman. Whether or not Holland is willing to give up these assets, we'll soon find out...

In today's NHL, who would be willing to part with a top pairing defenseman? I agree that we need a stud d-man, but who are you thinking about getting that anyone would be willing to part with? PK Subban? Shea Weber? Ryan Suter? Kris Letang? Alex Pieterangelo? Drew Doughty? Erik Karlsson? Those are some of the best in the league right now and I can't imagine any of them moving even if we offered Dylan Larkin. Even if we were able to swing a deal for one of those guys or some other top tier d-man, that's not really going to fix the problem. The unit as a whole isn't very good. The UFA defensemen aren't great, but they're better than what we currently have and I think several minor upgrades would be in our best interest considering the unavailability of top tier d-men around the league.

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This year is weaker than years previous, and next year and so on will be weaker again, that's the way the NHL is going. Teams are locking up their stars, so not near as many hit the open market, hence the importance of drafting and developing...

I've stated my opinion on this so many times now, but here it is again. Like you said, we're not getting any of the top "current" defensemen, aka Doughty, Weber, Pietrangelo, etc. The key is looking for young, up and coming defenders, that you think have a chance to develop into the next wave of elite defensemen. Who that is? I'm not sure, but they're out there.

I want us to go hard after Jacob Trouba, not because I think he is an elite defenseman, but because I think he has all the tools and potential to become an elite defenseman in a few years. I also think he is better than the majority of what we have on our blueline right now, and even if he doesn't hit his ceiling, he will still be a very solid second pairing defenseman. So we can go after a Keith Yandle and pay him $6+M to be our second pair defenseman, basically a left handed Mike Green, or we can package together a deal that could bring Jacob Trouba in with a floor of second pair defenseman and ceiling of elite top pair defenseman...

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I see what you're saying now. That's a little risky. Giving up proven prospects for someone that may end up being an elite defenseman. Trouba's name came up a number of times already on this board. Not a bad idea. The biggest problem I have with that is our front office believed Ericsson and Brendan Smith were future elite defensemen too. Misfiring here could put us in a lottery draft spot/full blown rebuild process in future years. Keith Yandle at $6 mil isn't really my target either. I was thinking guys like Roman Polak, Luke Schenn, Kris Russell. Guys that don't make a ton, shouldn't be in line for big raises, still young and are better or at the very least different than what we currently have.

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What "proven prospects" are you speaking of that we would have to trade to get Trouba? We don't have a single prospect in our system that is as proven as Trouba...

When did management EVER think Ericsson was going to be an "elite defenseman"? They never did, and he was never paid like he would be. Ericsson, is paid like a 2nd pairing defenseman, and despite what many here say, he is a solid number 4, at worst number 5. Management probably did think that Smith was going to be elite, or close to it, but he certainly has never been paid like it, because he didn't meet expectation. He is still a very good top 4 defenseman though, which brings us back to Trouba. Like Smith early on, Trouba has all the tools to become an elite defenseman, we give up some assets now in hopes that he develops into that role, if not, he's still a very good top 4, and we would pay him accordingly... There's no risk in trading for a guy like Trouba, because there's no way he becomes a complete bust. The only way we'd look back and regret such a trade is if he only becomes a top 4, and the first round pick we trade to get him, becomes the next Drew Doughty...

Guys like Polak, Schenn and Russell are the last thing this team needs. We don't need depth, we have plenty of that. We need a legit top pairing defenseman to pair with DeKeyser. In my opinion that player could / should be Trouba...

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Takeaways from an hour long listening:

The first 15 minutes were like a lection in hockey history. Unreal how much stuff this guy remembers. Yes, the Wings will need to be a lot more aggressive come draft and come UFA day but guess what, there aren't many too many pieces other GMs are going to be interested enough in in order to get that so much needed top 10 pick to draft Chychrun. So a combination of being aggressive and smarter than a lot of GMs will be needed.

I also liked the part where he was talking about too much pressure too soon for some young guys. Handing the team over to a 19, 20 old kid can be done if the kid is Crosby McJesuslike otherworldly good and even then Crosby had Super Mario as his mentor. Making McDavid the captain for the Oilers is asking for too much too soon and unneeded pressure on a kid that shoulders all the hope down there. I think one of Danny D., Larkin and Abdelkader will grow into a natural leadership role but takes time. Tatar and Nyquist had an off-season by their standards and if the right trade comes along I'm sure Holland will move one of them but if not, I'd still be fine with both coming back, given that someone on their line can create space for either one.

The part about the fanbase having to expect less was a bit dumb. This isn't your average expansion team we are talking about Hockeytown rich history, Original 6 here. The goal isn't to just hang on wingsstyle means not just being marginally better it means being the epidome of excellence, with a roster that doesn't need to give it everything and still win. A roster that's able to play everyway the opponent wants and still comes out on top and of course if you need a player to fix a position, it should be expected to get that players because we are talking about the Detroit Red Wings aka Hockeytown here. Less isn't acceptable nor should it be.

Fact is, the interest in this team is fading the empty seats at the Joe aren't just suits who bought the tickets but aren't showing up for whatever reason, real people aren't going or signing on for season tickets too. Holland may not be interested in a traditional rebuild fine, but if his last decisions are an indication he isn't interested in going all in either so whats the plan? Trying to get better on a marginal basis while other teams are improving and you also have worse teams catching up by getting top draft picks? That's not a plan for success it's a plan for disaster in the long run. Yes, a rebuild does take time and yes, there are no guarantees but guess what when I'm looking at rosters like the Oilers, Sabres and McJesus and Eichel I'd sure as hell trade this roster for Edmontons. The funny thing is, Kenny mentioned he doesn't want a real rebuild because it takes 8+ years well guess what Holland the last time this team has been competitive was 2009 and we are now in 2016 - do the math :)

Of course nobody is perfect and everyone makes mistakes but is Holland the right guy for a rebuild? By his own words, that's not the case.

The best part for me about all the interviews has been the fact that even as a fan you can really hear some tension brewing by just looking at the face of these guys. They are literally pissed of. So there is no way this team is going to look the same next year.

As far as the ownership goes, I still don't know if Chris has the same passion for this game as his dad so far it seems like he is more interested in the bottom line....

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What I mean by proven prospects are guys that are young players that currently in the NHL that WPG would want in exchange for a potential stud defensemen. Nyquist, Tatar, Larkin, Mrazek, DeKeyser come to mind as player they might want in exchange for someone like Trouba. Unfortunately, it will take more than draft picks to acquire him. Ericsson is currently on a 6 year deal that keeps him with the team through the 2020 season. You don't give long term deals to 4th or 5th d-men. Datsyuk and Zetterberg aren't being paid like elite forwards either. They signed Ericsson to that long term deal because they were gambling he would develop into a first pairing defensemen aka elite defensemen and they would have him at a good price for a long time. I'd hate to give up any one of the players I listed above to get another underachiever. Not saying Trouba looks like a bust, I'm just saying it's risky to give up proven young talent, players that we know work well in our system for someone that may not.

These d-men address weaknesses in our defense group. Our defensemen are soft, don't block shots, turnover the puck and crumble when against a strong forecheck. Polak is a physical shot blocking defenseman. Schenn is a physical, shutdown defenseman that makes good pass out of the zone. Russell is a versatile defenseman with good speed, passing and shot blocking skills. These three defensemen would drastically change the look and play of our defensive corps. I disagree on the point that we have plenty of depth. I think we have maybe 2 or 3 good defensemen and the others are just in there because we don't have anybody else to put in.

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What I mean by proven prospects are guys that are young players that currently in the NHL that WPG would want in exchange for a potential stud defensemen. Nyquist, Tatar, Larkin, Mrazek, DeKeyser come to mind as player they might want in exchange for someone like Trouba. Unfortunately, it will take more than draft picks to acquire him. Ericsson is currently on a 6 year deal that keeps him with the team through the 2020 season. You don't give long term deals to 4th or 5th d-men. Datsyuk and Zetterberg aren't being paid like elite forwards either. They signed Ericsson to that long term deal because they were gambling he would develop into a first pairing defensemen aka elite defensemen and they would have him at a good price for a long time. I'd hate to give up any one of the players I listed above to get another underachiever. Not saying Trouba looks like a bust, I'm just saying it's risky to give up proven young talent, players that we know work well in our system for someone that may not.

These d-men address weaknesses in our defense group. Our defensemen are soft, don't block shots, turnover the puck and crumble when against a strong forecheck. Polak is a physical shot blocking defenseman. Schenn is a physical, shutdown defenseman that makes good pass out of the zone. Russell is a versatile defenseman with good speed, passing and shot blocking skills. These three defensemen would drastically change the look and play of our defensive corps. I disagree on the point that we have plenty of depth. I think we have maybe 2 or 3 good defensemen and the others are just in there because we don't have anybody else to put in.

While 6 years is pretty unusual for a player like E, it's not unheard of either. I don't believe anyone ever expected or hoped he would be more than a top-4 guy. Nor do I think we'd have to hope for an elite top-pair guy to justify moving one of Nyquist/Tatar. Larkin maybe, but I don't think we'd move him regardless. There's some risk in trading away a proven scorer, but we have a lot of kids that could potentially step up so it'd be worth it.

I disagree that the players you list are any better than what we already have. I think that's just grass-is-greener thinking.

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xtrememachine, none of the players you listed are prospects, they are young players. I never once said that we could get Trouba or a similar type player for draft picks. I would be more than willing to give up a player like Nyquist or Tatar, a prospect not named Mantha (they would likely want a defense prospect anyway), and a high pick to get that "future" top pair defenseman. I'm not sure if that would be enough to get a player like Trouba, but that's where I'd start.

Like Buppy said, and I said previously, just because management gave Ericsson a long term contract doesn't mean they expected him to be a top pair defenseman, it just means they thought he would be a key piece to our core. And like it or not he has been. We also have totally different opinions on what makes a player considered elite if you think every top pair defenseman is "elite"...

Also, like I said, there's virtually no risk in trading for a player like Trouba, when his floor is a very good 2nd pair defenseman, and his ceiling is elite, top pair defenseman...

I also disagree that any of those defenseman are an upgrade over anything we have on our team right now or waiting down in Grand Rapids...

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I think he does have room to talk seeing as though he's put into a position of decline simply because management hasn't found suitable replacements. I'd be sick of being drained and overused in 82 games too. I think at one point in the interview he even said that a transition needs to happen to the kids playing more but having to earn it as well (as in they need good players that can take the responsibility off, not just any tom dick or harry.. Darren Helm isn't the answer). So when he makes statements like "you need to be aggressive to get players" or "there needs to be changes" - I couldn't agree more.

Holland mentioned in his press conference that the kids will get more responsibilities next year.

Good.

You don't believe he used his Swedish Mafia connections to get more icetime?

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I think most are taking this quote way out of context, and I actually tend to agree with him. But hey, anything to b**** about when it comes to ol' Kenny "kicking tires" Holland, amirite?

Well..... Did he really just admit that the cap is keeping us in contention? Then go on to say he "doesn't want to do a full rebuild". Don't those 2 statements contradict each other?

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If you think this class is weak, wait until next year. Lots of 35+ players contracts expiring and not much else. Hedman will be a UFA next year, but I can't imagine he'll make it that far especially if Stamkos does leave TB.

In today's NHL, who would be willing to part with a top pairing defenseman? I agree that we need a stud d-man, but who are you thinking about getting that anyone would be willing to part with? PK Subban? Shea Weber? Ryan Suter? Kris Letang? Alex Pieterangelo? Drew Doughty? Erik Karlsson? Those are some of the best in the league right now and I can't imagine any of them moving even if we offered Dylan Larkin. Even if we were able to swing a deal for one of those guys or some other top tier d-man, that's not really going to fix the problem. The unit as a whole isn't very good. The UFA defensemen aren't great, but they're better than what we currently have and I think several minor upgrades would be in our best interest considering the unavailability of top tier d-men around the league.

Trouba might be available. The Jets have 3 defensemen with a nmc, they'll either have to expose Trouba or only protect 4 forwards as it stands now, assuming the PA gets their way and players with a nmc have to be protected. Unless they make a deal with the expansion team(s) they'd lose someone they really don't want to lose. Trading Trouba or convincing one of the others to waive their clause is their best option.

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Just popping in to say it looks like the penny has dropped with a lot of people. Ken Holland is a clown who hid behind the success of Håkan Andersson for many, many years.

With the majority of Andersson's players gone or on the decline there was never any real attempt by Holland for so many years to keep the Wings at the top, just a lot of cast away one-year rentals that and the never ending presence of Dan Cleary.

He has literally waited to the point where we're on the cusp of becoming a team that won't even make the playoffs before he's decided he actually has to do his job and make us a better team...although his job is apparently for us to expect less, so then he's doing a better job without actually having to do anything?

The guys a joke. Huge thanks to Håkan Andersson for giving us such a good team between 2006-10.

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Ken Holland will not be fired at least until after the Steak is broken.

I don't want him fired I'd like him to become president of hockey operations like Shanahan, Burke, Linden and I think even Sakic has that title.

There is no way in hell that Chris is happy with a less is more explanation, he doesn't strike me as a fan first, business second type of guy but I do think (and hope), that he has some expectations on whats needs to happen here but if the unthinkable is true and Kenny is asked to keep the streak alive at all costs then the blame needs to go somewhere else but I refuse to believe that Chris would be the exact opposite of his dad because of he is the Wings trouble might have just started.

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I'm guessing Holland will be GM until his contract is done, then take over for a retiring Jimmy Devellano. With Datsyuk retiring, the streak will end, and the team will be rebuilt through the draft. The Wings were built around Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Kronwall since 2006-07. We made it to the Cup Finals twice, winning in 2007-08, now it's time to rebuild via the draft.

I don't understand Zetterberg's more aggressive comments. This isn't 2002, big named players don't become free agents anymore, and the only players traded at the deadline are 3rd and 4th line forwards, and 3rd line defencemen. Due to the lack of high quality players available, the UFA market and trade deadline deals are over valued with low supply and high demand. With a hard cap, smart GM's don't want to be stuck with bad contracts. The only UFA we may have missed out on was Suter, but he wanted to play on the same team with Parise. Again, with a hard cap, we would have had to build our team around those 2 for the next 13 years. No thanks! The Wild haven't got past the 2nd round yet with them, so it hasn't paid off, and there's still another 8 years to go. Add to that, the Wisniewski and the Ehrhoff deals were a complete joke.

We've had the hard cap since 2005-06, I thought people understood by now how it works, and the risks involved signing UFA's? I guess not.

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I honestly don't see us missing the playoffs in the next two years. Holland will do whatever it takes to, at the very least, get us in this year (last year at the Joe), and next (first year at Little Caesars Arena...). I expect a couple moves this offseason, nothing earth shattering, but possibly a trade that brings in a future top pair defenseman. Next offseason, I would expect a few more changes as well. I don't expect this team to be a legit contender in the next two years, but I would like for "the streak" to continue in the final season and inaugural season of the two arenas...

We do not need to be completely rebuild as some suggest. We have a lot of young talent, we just need to continue to develop and make some minor tweaks along the way. With Larkin, Mantha, DeKeyser, Mrazek, etc. as a core and a supporting cast of Athanasiou, Abdelkader, Nyquist, Tatar, Smith, etc. we're in pretty good shape. Some shrewd moves in the next couple years could get us back to the top...

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Disagreed when your captain, some other veterans are coming out stating that there will be and need to be changes, something has to give.

The Bob Hartley firing should show everyone his quickly support can turn into you are fired. Cap can't be an excuse the Hawks, Stars, Bolts and others are working under the same thing and are still getting better. So it's put up or shut up time this off-season and it starts with doing trying everything possible to get into the top 10 draft range.

Edited by frankgrimes

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I don't want him fired I'd like him to become president of hockey operations like Shanahan, Burke, Linden and I think even Sakic has that title.

There is no way in hell that Chris is happy with a less is more explanation, he doesn't strike me as a fan first, business second type of guy but I do think (and hope), that he has some expectations on whats needs to happen here but if the unthinkable is true and Kenny is asked to keep the streak alive at all costs then the blame needs to go somewhere else but I refuse to believe that Chris would be the exact opposite of his dad because of he is the Wings trouble might have just started.

Fired, promoted, secretly shipped to Siberia--whatever. Holland isn't going anywhere until the Streak ends. I'm not saying I agree or that it's best for the club. It's just reality.

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I have a hard time believing that this ownership group really believes that "less can be more exciting".

Again, this term means that expecting less going in, can only be that much more exciting when those expectations are surpassed. IMO this is what Kenny meant.

Remember a time when we had a lineup full of unproven, yet good players that created the Dynasty core? Lapointe, Draper, Maltby, McCarty, Brown, yes even Larionov, Fedorov and Yzerman had much to prove before they started winning. That core grew together, and learned to become winners together, all along they way losing in the 1st rounds of multiple playoff years. BUT, when they weren't "expected" to win Cups every year, don't you remember how exciting the season was when you just didn't know what was going to happen?

Remember when making the playoffs was the thing you looked forward to when the season started? Sure, you had fantasies about winning a Cup, but when those expectations weren't automatically there, the regular season was so fun to watch, individual stats were more fun to follow, certain teams were more fun to play against just because of who they were, not if they were possibly a 1st round matchup or not. There was never "acquire this vet to win him a cup" attitude and "he could be our motivation," it was "none of us have been there before" and "win this for the fans."

For sure, I want to win Cups, but I also want to enjoy the entire season to. When I look back, how lucky was I to "grow" with that core back then and watch them build from missing the playoffs in 1990 to what they became. We need to go back to that attitude with this young group, Larkin, Mantha, AA, Mrazek, Dekeyser, yes even Tatar and Nyquist, and watch them with unbridled excitment and grow with them. I do believe that if I watch the regular season with far less "expectations for a Cup" it can and will be a lot more exciting. Doesn't mean I won't be as upset when they get elimintated, but then there's always next year...rememeber having that attitude? That is what made Red Wings Hockey for me. I'm ready.

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