IIHF World Championships

[krsmith17 7,191]

Who said secondary scoring isn't important? I agree that it is very important, especially in the playoffs. I simply said secondary scoring isn't / won't be an issue going forward. If Larkin and Mantha can be as good as most of us think they will be, that would take care of our primary scoring. That leaves us with some combination of Athanasiou, Abdelkader, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Pulkkinen and whoever else as our secondary scoring...

[Jacksoni 418]

SWE 2 vs. CZE 4

Nyquist had a very bad game stat wise with no points, no shots on goal and a -3 in 16:05 time on ice... "I'm so sick of this guy", "Nyquist sucks"...

A shameful display!

[Bannedforlife 403]

Nyquist is a ghost in the playoffs. He has consistently demonstrated this to be true throughout his ENTIRE CAREER. If you think otherwise you are lying to yourself. His career ppg in the regular season is 60%. In the playoffs it plummets down to 22%. Lets compare that to another renowned offensive juggernaut. Max Talbot has a career ppg in the regular season of 29%. In the post season it INCREASES to 49%. Thats stepping up and getting it done WHEN IT MATTERS MOST. Something that Nyquist simply has not done. Case closed.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Bannedforlife

[krsmith17 7,191]

Thanks for closing that case...

Apparently if a player doesn't score he is considered a "ghost"... It doesn't matter how many offensive chances he produces (he produced a lot), how many turnovers he creates (more than any player on the team), nothing else matters except points in hockey... I bet no one would guess that the soft Euro had 11 hits in those 5 playoff games, while hard nosed Glendening had 4...

Keep in mind, I am defending Nyquist, but I would also trade him in the right deal. I'm not in any way saying that he is an elite player, but he is a good secondary scorer. And for a team that struggled as much as the Wings did offensively he was one of the few bright spots...

[kickazz 5,459]

How come Datsyuk is tearing it up in the World Championships but had 0 points in 5 playoff games for the Red Wings???

Hmmmmmm???

Old man Datsyuk sure can perform well when it comes to Russia!

See what I did there? Just swapped a name. Literally.

We could take the situation at face value and realize the entire Wings squad was terrible in the playoffs. And realize that those same players are doing well for their respective national teams.

Datsyuk 3 points in 3 games for Russia

Nyquist 2 goals in 3 games including a game winner for Sweden

Both of them (and everyone else) were "ghosts" in the playoffs.

Edited May 10, 2016 by kickazz

[miksteri 55]

Could be because Blash is clueless when it comes to making effective line combos?

[BinMucker94 302]

I think the players on this team are very skilled and would like to play a creative style of game. It shows when they go play for their respective countries. They always seem to be more effective. I thinks it's partially de to the bigger ice surface allowing more time and space to make plays. I also think the teams systems have something to do with it.

[kickazz 5,459]

All I'm saying is the Wings squad was pretty disappointing for their respective ages and performances this playoffs. 25 year old Nyquist should have scored more. 37 year old Datsyuk should have had atleast one or two points instead of 0. Zetterberg should have done more than take wide angle shots. By no means does anyone get a pass. So many issues and not all of it is on the players btw, a lot of it was coaching and over usage and under usage of certain players. But anyways we've discussed this a million times.

But yeah multitude of factors why they're doing better in the championships. Lesser competition would be one thing.

Edited May 10, 2016 by kickazz

[Bannedforlife 403]

Thanks for closing that case...

Apparently if a player doesn't score he is considered a "ghost"... It doesn't matter how many offensive chances he produces (he produced a lot), how many turnovers he creates (more than any player on the team), nothing else matters except points in hockey... I bet no one would guess that the soft Euro had 11 hits in those 5 playoff games, while hard nosed Glendening had 4...

Keep in mind, I am defending Nyquist, but I would also trade him in the right deal. I'm not in any way saying that he is an elite player, but he is a good secondary scorer. And for a team that struggled as much as the Wings did offensively he was one of the few bright spots...

Yes, if a player doesn't score then by definition he is not a good secondary scorer. People keep making straw man arguments against me so ill repeat myself for the fourth time now; Nyquist didnt just struggle to score in this years postseason, he's failed to score at a sufficient rate to be considered a secondary scorer in every postseason he's appeared in. Over the course of their respective careers he's been out scored by some of the least offensively talented players on our team. That doesnt make him a good secondary scorer. That makes him a tertiary scorer, at best.

Edit: I used to work as a salesman at a car dealership. Man, I was the best employee at that store. I was always well groomed and sharply dressed. I was polite and courteous to everyone I talked to. I was helpful to my co-workers, always picking up lunch for everyone and taking their customers on test drives when it got busy. I knew every little thing about every car on the lot. Everyone loved me. But I couldn't sell cars for s***. I probably closed deals with less than 1% of the customers I talked to. In fact, the times I did sell a car, it was most likely on accident.

So tell me. Was I a good car salesman?

Edited May 10, 2016 by Bannedforlife

[marcaractac 3,963]

Nyquist is a ghost in the playoffs. He has consistently demonstrated this to be true throughout his ENTIRE CAREER. If you think otherwise you are lying to yourself. His career ppg in the regular season is 60%. In the playoffs it plummets down to 22%. Lets compare that to another renowned offensive juggernaut. Max Talbot has a career ppg in the regular season of 29%. In the post season it INCREASES to 49%. Thats stepping up and getting it done WHEN IT MATTERS MOST. Something that Nyquist simply has not done. Case closed.

Such a narrow minded way of looking at it. How about looking at the scoring of every player on the roster in the playoffs since Goose made the team? Do you know what you'll see? That NOBODY has stepped it up when it matters most when it comes to scoring. The playoff scoring troubles is a team issue, not a Nyquist issue.

[kickazz 5,459]

So I did some digging.

Gustav Nyquist 35 playoff games played :

4 goals 4 assists = 8 points. Considered a secondary scorer

Pavel Datsyuk in his first 37 playoff games played :

3 goals 9 assists = 12 points. Considered a primary scorer by his second season.

Opinions? My opinion is that I know Datsyuk was heavily criticized in his first 4 NHL seasons because of his poor playoff performance. I'm starting to think it's a similar situation with Gus. Pav was a late bloomer. Gus might be as well.

[marcaractac 3,963]

So I did some digging.

Gustav Nyquist 35 playoff games played :

4 goals 4 assists = 8 points. Considered a secondary scorer

Pavel Datsyuk in his first 37 playoff games played :

3 goals 9 assists = 12 points. Considered a primary scorer by his second season.

Opinions? My opinion is that I know Datsyuk was heavily criticized in his first 4 NHL seasons because of his poor playoff performance. I'm starting to think it's a similar situation with Gus. Pav was a late bloomer. Gus might be as well.

Exactly. People used to ***** about Datsyuk and wanted him traded once upon a time as well. Oops.

[kickazz 5,459]

Lmao the Datsyuk trade for Scott Gomez.

Thank god that never went through.

Edited May 10, 2016 by kickazz

[marcaractac 3,963]

Lmao the Datsyuk trade for Scott Gomez.

Thank god that never went through.

Imagine where this franchise would be if the Yzerman/Yashin and Datsyuk/Gomez trades happened. We likely have none of those 4 cups. And would be basement battling with the Leafs lol

[Bannedforlife 403]

So I did some digging.

Gustav Nyquist 35 playoff games played :

4 goals 4 assists = 8 points. Considered a secondary scorer

Pavel Datsyuk in his first 37 playoff games played :

3 goals 9 assists = 12 points. Considered a primary scorer by his second season.

Opinions? My opinion is that I know Datsyuk was heavily criticized in his first 4 NHL seasons because of his poor playoff performance. I'm starting to think it's a similar situation with Gus. Pav was a late bloomer. Gus might be as well.

Yes, clearly Datsyuk was a poor secondary scorer in the playoffs... until he wasnt anymore. By comparison we can conclude that Nyquist is an even worse secondary scorer in the playoffs. Unfortunately for him (and mararactac), the fact that Datsyuk figured things out and learned how to score in the playoffs does not mean that Nyquist will do the same. Not even close.

Thanks for proving my point by the way.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Your point is that we don't have a single primary scorer or secondary scorer?... Great point!

[Bannedforlife 403]

Dont shoot the messenger

[kickazz 5,459]

Yes, clearly Datsyuk was a poor secondary scorer in the playoffs... until he wasnt anymore. By comparison we can conclude that Nyquist is an even worse secondary scorer in the playoffs. Unfortunately for him (and mararactac), the fact that Datsyuk figured things out and learned how to score in the playoffs does not mean that Nyquist will do the same. Not even close.

Thanks for proving my point by the way.

There are a few flaws in your argument though.

1. Datsyuk was a primary scorer while Nyquist was a secondary scorer. So comparatively Datsyuk was just as bad (if not worse than Nyquist).

2. Nyquist's quality of teammates are worse than Datsyuk (who primarily played with Brett Hull and Henrik Zetterberg). Datsyuk also averaged about 3+ minutes more ice time in his 2nd seasons and beyond in the playoffs

3. Datsyuk's first good playoff year was after his first 41 playoff games. Nyquist has only played 35 playoff games.

And then you're using hindsight bias to confirm that Datsyuk figured it out. Even though it took him a looooong time to figure it out. And at the time we were all saying exactly what we are saying of Nyquist. The narrative then for about 4 years in a row was "Pavel Datsyuk is not cut out for the playoffs". Easier to look back in hindsight tho.. But you aren't open to the idea that Nyquist might be a late bloomer as well? I mean sure he might not pan out... maybe Nyquist will never figure it out. But seeing as how Datsyuk took 41 games to figure out, and knowing Nyquist has played about 35 games so far, I think we can at least give Nyquist another 6+ games to see if he finds his mojo.

But hey I'm open to the idea of trading Nyquist. Especially if it means getting someone who can score in the playoffs (Kyle Okoposo)

Edited May 11, 2016 by kickazz

[Bannedforlife 403]

There are a few flaws in your argument though.

1. Datsyuk was a primary scorer while Nyquist was a secondary scorer. So comparatively Datsyuk was just as bad (if not worse than Nyquist).

2. Nyquist's quality of teammates are worse than Datsyuk (who primarily played with Brett Hull and Henrik Zetterberg). Datsyuk also averaged about 3+ minutes more ice time in his 2nd seasons and beyond in the playoffs

3. Datsyuk's first good playoff year was after his first 41 playoff games. Nyquist has only played 35 playoff games.

And then you're using hindsight bias to confirm that Datsyuk figured it out. Even though it took him a looooong time to figure it out. And at the time we were all saying exactly what we are saying of Nyquist. The narrative then for about 4 years in a row was "Pavel Datsyuk is not cut out for the playoffs". Easier to look back in hindsight tho.. But you aren't open to the idea that Nyquist might be a late bloomer as well? I mean sure he might not pan out... maybe Nyquist will never figure it out. But seeing as how Datsyuk took 41 games to figure out, and knowing Nyquist has played about 35 games so far, I think we can at least give Nyquist another 6+ games to see if he finds his mojo.

But hey I'm open to the idea of trading Nyquist. Especially if it means getting someone who can score in the playoffs (Kyle Okoposo)

No, wrong again. My argument is perfectly sound: Nyquist is not a good playoff scorer. No one has given an argument to refute that statement because no argument exists that can justify 22% ppg as "good secondary scoring". Even your conclusion that Nyquist is a good scorer in the present because he might get better in the future (which is terrible logic by the way) is wrong because his playoff numbers have actually gotten worse over time, not better as they should have as he entered his prime.

Im done with this, this is getting lame.

[kickazz 5,459]

No, wrong again. My argument is perfectly sound: Nyquist is not a good playoff scorer. No one has given an argument to refute that statement because no argument exists that can justify 22% ppg as "good secondary scoring". Even your conclusion that Nyquist is a good scorer in the present because he might get better in the future (which is terrible logic by the way) is wrong because his playoff numbers have actually gotten worse over time, not better as they should have as he entered his prime.

Im done with this, this is getting lame.

Never stated Nyquist was a good playoff scorer. I've pointed out ad nauseum that he's a terrible playoff scorer just like Datsyuk was his first 4 seasons.

You're the one who brought up Datsyuk and compared him to Nyquist at age 26 and stated he scored 3 times as much. (Which was a very limited comparison seeing as though Datsyuk had 40+ playoff games under his belt by then). I simply decided to expand the comparison to show the first 35 ish games of each player which obviously refuted the point. I.e in reality they were both terrible in their first 35 or so games. That was my main point anyway. Then you went on to say Nyquist was "an even worse secondary scorer than Datsyuk" when in reality Datsyuk was considered a primary scorer by his 2nd year playing with a hall of fame goal scorer and by those standards fell far below expectations than Nyquist currently has.

Tl;dr Datsyuk wasn't a good comparison factor imo. Nyquist is a terrible playoff scorer. But so was Datsyuk in the same amount of games played.

Your other comparisons were good.

Edited May 11, 2016 by kickazz

[Bannedforlife 403]

Great. Awesome. Go write about it in your Gustav Nyquist fan blog before you tuck yourself into bed under your Gustav Nyquist goose down comforter so you can have Gustav Nyquist dreams about Gustav Nyquist scoring 1 Gustav Nyquist point every 300 minutes of Gustav Nyquist playoff hockey. I don't care anymore.

[kickazz 5,459]

Lollll. Hey man you're the one who made certain points. I just joined into the discussion ya'll were having. Didn't realize it would get to you that bad (to the point of saying Gustav Nyquist 6 times in one sentence!). Must have mistook this for a forum discussion. Doh!

Alright alright lets steer it back to world championships then.

Edited May 11, 2016 by kickazz

[Aethernum 276]

Great. Awesome. Go write about it in your Gustav Nyquist fan blog before you tuck yourself into bed under your Gustav Nyquist goose down comforter so you can have Gustav Nyquist dreams about Gustav Nyquist scoring 1 Gustav Nyquist point every 300 minutes of Gustav Nyquist playoff hockey. I don't care anymore.

Okay. Hello.

There are two arguments being made here: 1. Nyquist is not (currently) a good secondary scorer. 2. Neither were other good players in their first few years, so based on the talent we've seen from Nyquist - both in regular seasons past and in the IIHF World Championships - maybe we should give him some time.

It's possible for one brain to entertain both of those ideas at the same time and find them both compelling. It's also possible to discuss those ideas without being sensationalist and condescending. Let's carry that mindset with us as we turn the discussion back to the thread topic, okay?

[Bannedforlife 403]

Great. Awesome. Go write about it in your Gustav Nyquist fan blog before you tuck yourself into bed under your Gustav Nyquist goose down comforter so you can have Gustav Nyquist dreams about Gustav Nyquist scoring 1 Gustav Nyquist point every 300 minutes of Gustav Nyquist playoff hockey. I don't care anymore.

7. I invoked his name 7 times in one sentence.

[krsmith17 7,191]

SVK 1 vs. GER 5

Jurco had no points, but lead all forwards with 6 shots on goal in 17:39 time on ice...