Signed Frans Nielson signs 6 year $5.25m AAV contract with Detroit

[kipwinger 8,496]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Are you suggesting we had a bad season because Steve Ott was on the roster for part of it?

Nope.  I'm saying whether or not we had Steve Ott made no difference at all to our winning and losing.  So why sign him again?  Why not try to find a solution that actually IMPROVES your team rather than one that does nothing at all?

Again, this isn't theoretical.  If having Ott made us better, as you're suggesting, then we would have been better when we had him.  But we weren't.  We were the same crappy team with or without his "hardness to play against" or whatever other stupid intangible you're suggesting he brings to the table. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

8 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Nope.  I'm saying whether or not we had Steve Ott made no difference at all to our winning and losing.  So why sign him again?  Why not try to find a solution that actually IMPROVES your team rather than one that does nothing at all?

Again, this isn't theoretical.  If having Ott made us better, as you're suggesting, then we would have been better when we had him.  But we weren't.  We were the same crappy team with or without his "hardness to play against" or whatever other stupid intangible you're suggesting he brings to the table. 

Not me saying it. Frans Nielsen is.

It was his comment that the team didn't grind hard enough this season and was too easy to play against. He goes on to say tough players like Steve Ott open up space for skilled guys like himself, and that he likes having "tough to play against" players like Ott around.

I think Otter provides "that" at a pretty cheap price, so I wouldn't mind him coming back. If we gain a player that can do that better at a higher price, cool. I just think Otter is cheap and low risk so I prefer that. I don't want a Matt Martin at 2.5 mil running around.

[kipwinger 8,496]

8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Not me saying it. Frans Nielsen is.

It was his comment that the team didn't grind hard enough this season and was too easy to play against. He goes on to say tough players like Steve Ott open up space for skilled guys like himself, and that he likes having "tough to play against" players like Ott around.

I think Otter provides "that" at a pretty cheap price, so I wouldn't mind him coming back. If we gain a player that can do that better at a higher price, cool. I just think Otter is cheap and low risk so I prefer that. I don't want a Matt Martin at 2.5 mil running around.

 

I would prefer to see the Wings do what Columbus did with its fourth line this season.  Get rid of all the useless "grinders" on the 4th, replace them with guys who had formerly been top 9 guys, and replace THOSE guys' spots in the top 9 with young skilled players on entry level contracts.  Sam Gagner and Scott Hartnell replaced guys like Jared Boll and Gregory Campbell (who were SUPER MEGA TOUGH), and all they accomplished was a combined 31 goals and 56 assists from the FOURTH LINE.  You know what's really super duper hard to play against?  A line that can actual control the puck and score goals instead of just hitting and blocking shots.  Novel idea I know. 

Here's an article that helps explain the philosophy.  I think it makes way more sense for improving our team.  Or we could just keep doing what we did this season, with essentially the same personnel, and expect a different outcome. 

https://www.fanragsports.com/nhl/blue-jackets/blue-jackets-fourth-line-taking-nhl-storm/

Edited April 20, 2017 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

11 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

 

I would prefer to see the Wings do what Columbus did with its fourth line this season.  Get rid of all the useless "grinders" on the 4th, replace them with guys who had formerly been top 9 guys, and replace THOSE guys' spots in the top 9 with young skilled players on entry level contracts.  Sam Gagner and Scott Hartnell replaced guys like Jared Boll and Gregory Campbell (who were SUPER MEGA TOUGH), and all they accomplished was a combined 31 goals and 56 assists from the FOURTH LINE.  You know what's really super duper hard to play against?  A line that can actual control the puck and score goals instead of just hitting and blocking shots.  Novel idea I know. 

Here's an article that helps explain the philosophy.  I think it makes way more sense for improving our team.  Or we could just keep doing what we did this season, with essentially the same personnel, and expect a different outcome. 

https://www.fanragsports.com/nhl/blue-jackets/blue-jackets-fourth-line-taking-nhl-storm/

Signing Ott prevents you from doing whatever scheme this is?

[kipwinger 8,496]

Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Signing Ott prevents you from doing whatever scheme this is?

Yes.  Unless you're advocating signing him and then not playing him.  In which case, why bother?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Yes.  Unless you're advocating signing him and then not playing him.  In which case, why bother?

I'm not advocating not playing him. I'd advocate for limited use though. If we signed him again, I'd want him as an extra forward to start the season.

Your BJ's scheme has risks involved. That Gagner type we sign might not work out. Promoting Bertuzzi to the third line might not work out. If they do work out, just waive Otter or trade him or forget about him, whichever you prefer. He's an 800K player. 

[LeftWinger 4,936]

3 hours ago, kliq said:

Plus AA when we trade him for D 

Slap!

[kipwinger 8,496]

8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'm not advocating not playing him. I'd advocate for limited use though. If we signed him again, I'd want him as an extra forward to start the season.

Your BJ's scheme has risks involved. That Gagner type we sign might not work out. Promoting Bertuzzi to the third line might not work out. If they do work out, just waive Otter or trade him or forget about him, whichever you prefer. He's an 800K player. 

I'm not advocating signing a "Gagner type".  We've already got a better center on our team.  Helm.  And I never once advocated "promoting Bertuzzi to the 3rd line".  I advocated putting Frk and Svech on the 3rd line.  If you're going to argue with me maybe you should actually read my previous posts.  Just to reiterate.

Nyq-Z-Mantha

Tatar-Larkin-AA

Frk-Neilsen-Svech

Glen-Helm-Abby

Bertuzzi

Sheahan

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'm not advocating signing a "Gagner type".  We've already got a better center on our team.  Helm.  And I never once advocated "promoting Bertuzzi to the 3rd line".  I advocated putting Frk and Svech on the 3rd line.  If you're going to argue with me maybe you should actually read my previous posts.  Just to reiterate.

Nyq-Z-Mantha

Tatar-Larkin-AA

Frk-Neilsen-Svech

Glen-Helm-Abby

Bertuzzi

Sheahan

Jeez man I don't keep track of your posts, sorry. I was going off the post you made with the CBJ article in it, and you mentioned Bertuzzi earlier in our conversation.

My point remains the same, how does signing Ott stop you from doing any of this? You just plain don't like Steve Ott lol

[kipwinger 8,496]

6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Jeez man I don't keep track of your posts, sorry. I was going off the post you made with the CBJ article in it, and you mentioned Bertuzzi earlier in our conversation.

My point remains the same, how does signing Ott stop you from doing any of this? You just plain don't like Steve Ott lol

You're right.  I have a personal vendetta against a man I've never met.  That makes WAY more sense than that I don't see the point in needlessly signing an aging free agent who isn't noticeably better (or better at all) than anyone currently on our team and whose presence on the roster would prohibit a younger player from gaining much needed NHL development.  Good thinking. 

I think it's hilarious that a guy who said "Stevie O is the man" is accusing me of having a personal bias.  Nice try. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

You're right.  I have a personal vendetta against a man I've never met.  That makes WAY more sense than that I don't see the point in needlessly signing an aging free agent who isn't better than anyone currently on our team and whose presence on the roster would prohibit a younger player from gaining much needed NHL development.  Good thinking. 

lol personal vendetta? Your using sarcasm to avoid the point. We all have players we like or don't like.

Again, what does it hurt to have an 800K Ott as an extra forward? You just want to keep plugging the Frk's of the world until one works out? What happens when we go through a rash of injuries? Keep plugging kids? You seem overly upset about a guy that would just be signed as a spare part. 

[kipwinger 8,496]

7 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

lol personal vendetta? Your using sarcasm to avoid the point. We all have players we like or don't like.

Again, what does it hurt to have an 800K Ott as an extra forward? You just want to keep plugging the Frk's of the world until one works out? What happens when we go through a rash of injuries? Keep plugging kids? You seem overly upset about a guy that would just be signed as a spare part. 

You know which players I "like"?  Good ones.  Not washed up veterans.

Our team is FULL of spare parts.  Why sign another one?  It would "hurt" because we have kids who are supposed to be part of our future.  And to get them on the team we need roster spots.  And you seem intent on giving one of those spots to a guy who obviously doesn't make our team better (we've already tried, remember?), and who definitely Isn't going to help us down the road.  I"m not sure why this isn't clear.  YES we absolutely should be "plugging" holes with kids to see which ones will work out.  It worked with Jensen didn't it?  MAYBE Frk or Bertuzzi won't pan out.  That remains to be seen.  But we aren't going to know whether they will or won't if they don't get the opportunity.  We ALREADY KNOW  that we're not a better team with Steve Ott.  It's not like he's an unknown quantity. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

Our team is FULL of spare parts.  Why sign another one?  It would "hurt" because we have kids who are supposed to be part of our future.  And to get them on the team we need roster spots.  And you seem intent on giving one of those spots to a guy who obviously doesn't make our team better (we've already tried, remember?), and who definitely Isn't going to help us down the road.  I"m not sure why this isn't clear.  YES we absolutely should be "plugging" holes with kids to see which ones will work out.  It worked with Jensen didn't it?  MAYBE Frk or Bertuzzi won't pan out.  That remains to be seen.  But we aren't going to know whether they will or won't if they don't get the opportunity.  We ALREADY KNOW  that we're not a better team with Steve Ott.  It's not like he's an unknown quantity. 

Nielsen says he likes Ott. I said I would be fine with coming back as an extra forward. In what world is that taking a roster spot from a kid?

I'm fine with giving kids opportunities, but you cannot just keep plugging kids until one works. You're going to enter waiver trouble and screw up development of kids who simply are not ready.

We already know we're not a better team with Vanek and Smith too. Does that make these players useless?

 

[kipwinger 8,496]

Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Nielsen says he likes Ott. I said I would be fine with coming back as an extra forward. In what world is that taking a roster spot from a kid?

I'm fine with giving kids opportunities, but you cannot just keep plugging kids until one works. You're going to enter waiver trouble and screw up development of kids who simply are not ready.

We already know we're not a better team with Vanek and Smith too. Does that make these players useless?

 

Yes.  I would be 100% against bringing back either Vanek or Smith at this point.  Sounds like you'd really like to just re-sign this year's team and give it another go eh?  Smith, Vanek, and Ott.  Good call.  That worked wonders for us this year. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

Yes.  I would be 100% against bringing back either Vanek or Smith at this point.  Sounds like you'd really like to just re-sign this year's team and give it another go eh?  Smith, Vanek, and Ott.  Good call.  That worked wonders for us this year. 

You're putting words in my mouth again Kip lol but I guess that's all you can do when you avoid the rest of my post.

I did not ask you if you were for bringing them back or suggest that I was. I asked you if you thought they were useless players? Because in your words: "We ALREADY KNOW  that we're not a better team with Steve Ott" So the same must apply to them right?

[kipwinger 8,496]

Well, saying "we're not a better team with them" is not the same thing as saying they're "useless".  They're NHL players.  Obviously they aren't "useless".  But we aren't a very good team with those guys.  So maybe, just maybe, we should try to find different, better, players with which to rebuild our team and make it better.  Again, novel idea. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Well, saying "we're not a better team with them" is not the same thing as saying they're "useless".  They're NHL players.  Obviously they aren't "useless".  But we aren't a very good team with those guys.  So maybe, just maybe, we should try to find different, better, players with which to rebuild our team and make it better.  Again, novel idea. 

lol AGAIN, I did not suggest signing either. You're chalked full of straw men and sarcasm today.

So we're not a better team with them, and obviously they aren't useless, does that mean other teams are better with them? They just aren't useful to us?

[kipwinger 8,496]

8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

lol AGAIN, I did not suggest signing either. You're chalked full of straw men and sarcasm today.

So we're not a better team with them, and obviously they aren't useless, does that mean other teams are better with them? They just aren't useful to us?

YES!  Now you're catching on.  Other teams, with better core players, might find our depth players more useful than we do.  And since we don't have that kind of a team right now, it's more beneficial to us to play kids, see what we have in them, and move out veteran underachievers WHILE WE'RE REBUILDING OUR CORE.  Not, as you seem to be advocating, bringing back aging veterans on the back end of their careers and leaving potential future Wings in the  minors. 

It's really not that hard.  I'll break it down for you really simply.  Abby is a better player than Ott.  So replace Ott with Abby on the fourth line.  Then replace Abby with Svech (or Frk) on the 3rd line, since it's likely they'll produce better offense than he did.  And have Bertuzzi as a spare forward, learning the pro game, and filling in during injuries.  THAT would be an improvement because you've replaced two players with BETTER players in their given roles. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

16 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

YES!  Now you're catching on.  Other teams, with better core players, might find our depth players more useful than we do.  And since we don't have that kind of a team right now, it's more beneficial to us to play kids, see what we have in them, and move out veteran underachievers WHILE WE'RE REBUILDING OUR CORE.  Not, as you seem to be advocating, bringing back aging veterans on the back end of their careers and leaving potential future Wings in the  minors. 

It's really not that hard.  I'll break it down for you really simply.  Abby is a better player than Ott.  So replace Ott with Abby on the fourth line.  Then replace Abby with Svech (or Frk) on the 3rd line, since it's likely they'll produce better offense than he did.  And have Bertuzzi as a spare forward, learning the pro game, and filling in during injuries.  THAT would be an improvement because you've replaced two players with BETTER players in their given roles. 

Bertuzzi as the 13th? I thought you want the kids to have roster spots?

How does an 800K Ott as a 13th forward stop you from acheiving any of this? If you absolutely need bertuzzi as your 13, waive Ott. Hes a spare part.

[kipwinger 8,496]

8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Bertuzzi as the 13th? I thought you want the kids to have roster spots?

How does an 800K Ott as a 13th forward stop you from acheiving any of this? If you absolutely need bertuzzi as your 13, waive Ott. Hes a spare part.

The 13th forward spot IS A ROSTER SPOT.  If I have to explain why having Ott as your 13th forward stops you from having Bertuzzi has your 13th forward then you're too obtuse to even bother with.  Now you're advocating signing him only to then waive him?  Brilliant.  I'm done.  You win.

Edited April 20, 2017 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

If I have to explain why having Ott as your 13th forward stops you from having Bertuzzi has your 13th forward then you're too obtuse to even bother with.  Now you're advocating signing him only to then waive him?  Brilliant.  I'm done.  You win.

Holy cow man, yes we are done if all youre going to do is misrepresent my arguments.

I did not advocate signing Ott in order to waive him and you know that. And I asked why you arent giving Bertuzzi a spot in the lineup.

If you wanna end the conversation just walk away man. Dont drag this into the mud.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I'd rather have a kid who is out of waivers as the 2 spare forwards than some old vet like Ott.  If you decide the kids are crap and they play their way off the team later, either promote someone else from GR or claim someone else off waivers.

If they sign a guy under 30 years old who can play on a scoring line and hit and agitate and be hard to play against, fantastic.  Otherwise just go with what they have.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Yeah, I'm sick of having none skilled guys fill out our bottom 6, because they bring all sorts of "intangibles"... There's absolutely no reason to bring back either Miller or Ott when you have Glendening, Abdelkader, Helm, Sheahan and Bertuzzi that can all play a similar role. And you can also fill the bottom 6 with guys from Grand Rapids like Svechnikov, Nosek and Frk as well as one of the top 7 guys (Zetterberg, Nielsen, Nyquist, Tatar, Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou) that gets pushed out of the top 6. All of this of course, is assuming there are no changes to the roster up front (I hope there will be) and everyone is healthy...

[Buppy 1,720]

Wait, I thought we were sick of having young skill guys getting scratched and underused. I'm confused.

Do other team's fans obsess this much over the least important parts of the roster? I guess it makes some sense to complain about the worst players on the team, but I would think we could be rational enough to understand how negligible an impact those moves will have.

Bringing back Miller or Ott or someone similar, or filling that spot with a kid is completely irrelevant. It's not going to help or hurt anything. Put a better player in an insignificant role, and you're just wasting potential. Bertuzzi playing 50 games (and scratched for 30) as our 13th forward, or playing 50 in GR plus 20 in Det as an injury call-up isn't going to affect his development. 

If you're going to be scratching Sheahan and relegating Helm and Abby to the 4th line, when all of them have proven they can contribute much more significantly, you'd be better off doing whatever you can to just get rid of them and using the cap space on a FA that might actually do something. Or better yet if you think Svech can be a valuable top-9 player, you use one of the guys above him to try to help the defense. Scratching a kid with a history of solid 3rd-line level production is just inefficient. Either way, whether we plug the bottom of the roster with a kid or a cheap vet (that we might be able to flip for late pick) is just about the last thing we should be worried about.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I said at the beginning of last year they should have made one of their bottom 2 lines a checking line, Abndelkader-Helm-Glendening.  They get defensive zone starts and their job is to hit and piss off the other team.  The other line should be 3 young skilled players.  Mantha-AA-Jurco.  That line gets mostly offensive zone starts against the other team's 3rd and 4th lines and their primary job is to score, be defensively responsible but don't focus on that.  They should do something similar next year.  

Nyquist-Zetterberg-Mantha

Tatar-Larkin-Nielsen

Svechnikov-AA-TBD

Abdelkader-Helm-Glendening