For the Kenny apologists, what Holland move would change your stance o

[NerveDamage 4,176]

I was about to just sit back, eat some popcorn and watch you two fire back and forth about Brendan Smith but I guess I want more answers than crossfire.

He (Smith) sure is puzzling. I can't place him where he's at. 28 years, but "plays 25" (my subjective thought). Skilled, but moronic. Aggressive in a nice way but also with a temper. Has the potential upside to be a league top offensive defenseman, but at 28.. Hm.

What I would like to know is what Mike Babcock has to say about Brendan Smith today, in retrospect. That would clear up some conceptions for me I believe.

too bad Bill B is not around he could've answered that

[kickazz 5,459]

I'm sick of people constantly saying how Smith (or whoever) gets "sheltered minutes". Sure a coach may try to get an offensive defenseman out against lesser competition, but that only works at home when you have the last change. What happens in the other 41 games on the road when you don't have last change? The opposing coach is trying to get all of his offensive weapons out against the same player that his coach is trying to "protect"... Bottom line, every players opponents as well as teammates overall skill level balances out over the course of a season...

Smith seen more 5on5 play against JT Brown than any other player in the league last season... Not exactly an offensive dynamo. However, guess who's number's 8 and 9 on that list? Bobby Ryan and Steven Stamkos, at nearly 18 minutes against both... Are you saying that Blashill is trying to match Smith up against these two guys? Of course not. That's the strategy of the opposing coach...

Smith had as good and at times better possession metrics than Nick Lidstorm did. Are you saying Smith = Lidstrom then? I'm all for advanced metrics when looked at in the correct context.

Is Smith the next Lidstrom? Should we play him 28 minutes a night amongst the toughest matchups all 82 games and see how he does?

Edited July 5, 2016 by kickazz

[WingedWheel91 271]

Yes, because when I speak of liking or disliking a hockey player, I'm talking about them as people outside of the game... No, I'm not related to Brendan, and unfortunately I've never had the pleasure of meeting the guy. I'm not basing my opinion on him, on whether or not he is a "nice guy" though... My opinion is based purely on whether or not he is a good hockey player, and despite what many "haters" think, he is definitely that.

"Facts are facts"? This is the second time you brought up Smith's "injury history"... Please tell me when he's been injured? I remember a few years ago he missed some time with a shoulder injury, other than that, he is a very durable player that rarely ever gets injured...

As I've said before, Smith provides a ton of offense, just that those numbers have yet to translate into point totals. I think it has a huge deal to do with the lack of points from individual players as a whole than anything else. He leads our defense in corsi% and scoring chances created (passes that set up shots on goal), as well as a ton of other advanced stats... He is a very important player to this team, and to suggest that two unproven prospects that may never play an NHL game, are more valuable to the organization is ridiculous...

Sorry - Smith also misses games every year as a healthy scratch, which explain his GP.

When assessing his value, I agree that Smith is a more important player for the Detroit Red Wings today - but that wasn't my point? The initial post Luvmnger typed had more to go with organizational value in terms of trade chips, which was what I replied to.

In that context - considering Smith who will be 28 (and a UFA), who has never scored more than 19 points in a season, never been a key part of a winning team - has less organizational value than 19/20 year old prospects who are contractually protected.

[krsmith17 7,191]

kickazz, absolutely not, and I've never suggested that Smith is anything remotely close to the best defenseman to ever play the game....... People somehow get confused by me talking up Smith's game as if I think he's an elite defenseman, when in fact I just think he is a solid top 4. The reason I pull stats is to provide information to those that suggest "Smith sucks", not to those that think he is a solid and important part to this team...

Smith should average around 16:00 even strength per game and a 1-2:00 on each of the special team units in my opinion. I'm not even saying he should play above 20:00 per game, let alone anything close to 28:00.....

WingedWheel, you can argue all you want, there is no way that the organization sees either of the other guys (Hicketts / Saarijarvi) as a more valuable piece than Smith today or the future...

[kickazz 5,459]

kickazz, absolutely not, and I've never suggested that Smith is anything remotely close to the best defenseman to ever play the game....... People somehow get confused by me talking up Smith's game as if I think he's an elite defenseman, when in fact I just think he is a solid top 4. The reason I pull stats is to provide information to those that suggest "Smith sucks", not to those that think he is a solid and important part to this team...

Smith should average around 16:00 even strength per game and a 1-2:00 on each of the special team units in my opinion. I'm not even saying he should play above 20:00 per game, let alone anything close to 28:00.....

Fair enough.

That's exactly what I mean by "sheltered" minutes btw. Keep him around 16 minutes or so and not overdo it, try to give him good matchups at home and he will thrive.

[LeftWinger 4,934]

kickazz, absolutely not, and I've never suggested that Smith is anything remotely close to the best defenseman to ever play the game....... People somehow get confused by me talking up Smith's game as if I think he's an elite defenseman, when in fact I just think he is a solid top 4. The reason I pull stats is to provide information to those that suggest "Smith sucks", not to those that think he is a solid and important part to this team...

Smith should average around 16:00 even strength per game and a 1-2:00 on each of the special team units in my opinion. I'm not even saying he should play above 20:00 per game, let alone anything close to 28:00.....

WingedWheel, you can argue all you want, there is no way that the organization sees either of the other guys (Hicketts / Saarijarvi) as a more valuable piece than Smith today or the future...

Hey! The "..." is my thing, find your own!

[NerveDamage 4,176]

Hey! The "..." is my thing, find your own!

[Jacksoni 418]

Fair enough.

That's exactly what I mean by "sheltered" minutes btw. Keep him around 16 minutes or so and not overdo it, try to give him good matchups at home and he will thrive.

I agree that with the personnel we have right now Smith needs more minutes. Around 15 suits me fine, but it depends on how he will be utilized (matchups, offensive/defensive zone starts, home court).

We need to see if he is boom or bust with more responsibility.

[shocky2002 36]

is there such thing as a Holland apologist? I mean there are a lot of sky's falling gloomers...but I think most of us are critical of him and few are constructive about it.

Horrendous post. Step your game up, seriously. Are you 12 years old? Lots of RW fans defend Holland all the time, cite his rings, etc. Jesus Christ.

Edited July 5, 2016 by shocky2002

[kickazz 5,459]

Horrendous post. Step your game up, seriously. Are you 12 years old? Lots of RW fans defend Holland all the time, cite his rings, etc. Jesus Christ.

I think almost everyone here agrees that Nerve is a phenomenal poster while you... lol let's not get into that. Great thread title btw.

Let's reverse the question. What would it take for a Holland hater to stop hatin'

Edited July 5, 2016 by kickazz

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Horrendous post. Step your game up, seriously. Are you 12 years old? Lots of RW fans defend Holland all the time, cite his rings, etc. Jesus Christ.

lol why are you so mad?

[WingedWheel91 271]

I think almost everyone here agrees that Nerve is a phenomenal poster while you... lol let's not get enough that. Great thread title btw.

Let's reverse the question. What would it take for a Holland hater to to stop hatin'

If he landed a godamn defenseman.

[NerveDamage 4,176]

Horrendous post. Step your game up, seriously. Are you 12 years old? Lots of RW fans defend Holland all the time, cite his rings, etc. Jesus Christ.

says the guy who can't even type a thread title properly.

[TheXym 2,606]

lol why are you so mad?

I think his Axe to grind is stemming from the Drew Miller signing and letting Emdog leave.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Don't be mad brah Holland forgives you

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

I think his Axe to grind is stemming from the Drew Miller signing and letting Emdog leave.

Emdog was the greatest red wing ever. Or at least he would have been. Holland screwed that one up

[NerveDamage 4,176]

Emdog was the greatest red wing ever. Or at least he would have been. Holland screwed that one up

[roboturner 562]

I think there were a good number of Holland Apologists around a couple years ago (I'm thinking of like 2010-2014)

Kinda hard to hate on a guy one year removed from the Finals and two years removed from a Cup. But by 2010 we all knew Lids' playing days were numbered and Kenny didn't seem prepared (still hasn't really fixed it); he made bad signings and re-signings (Sammy, Cleary, Cleary again....); losing Quincy through waivers and then trading a 1st round pick to reacquire him; ect...

There were some who called it like it was, but there was a lot of pushback. In the past two years I'd say there's been a slow but steady move towards being more critical

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Please delete.

Edited July 6, 2016 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[VM1138 1,921]

I think there were a good number of Holland Apologists around a couple years ago (I'm thinking of like 2010-2014)

Kinda hard to hate on a guy one year removed from the Finals and two years removed from a Cup. But by 2010 we all knew Lids' playing days were numbered and Kenny didn't seem prepared (still hasn't really fixed it); he made bad signings and re-signings (Sammy, Cleary, Cleary again....); losing Quincy through waivers and then trading a 1st round pick to reacquire him; ect...

There were some who called it like it was, but there was a lot of pushback. In the past two years I'd say there's been a slow but steady move towards being more critical

From 2010-2012 there were so many injuries that there was a lot of uncertainty. On paper the team looked good so a lot of us Holland apologists were just waiting to get healthy to see what we really had. I still maintain we got screwed in '10 and decimated in '11. I think it was the 12-13 season that thins really started to slip, but the strong showing in the playoffs bought Holland more time. 2014-16 has been an unmitigated disaster dotted with moments of hope (Nyquist, Tatar, Larkin).

[pondrocket 35]

Holland trading the 16th pick and the Defense man that they desperately need were traded for one single year of relief of Dats contract should wake the rest of them up. The Jets got a great defense man with our 16th pick. Holland is the worst part of the Detroit organization, has delayed their rebuild and continues to do so.

[VM1138 1,921]

We don't know that Chychrun will be anything of note. Over half the league had a chance to get him and passes. Maybe there's something to that. I'm not too concerned about missing out on a prospect we weren't going to draft anyway.

[chaps80 1,591]

I think Holland would have drafted Chychrun had he still had the 16th pick. Would have made a lot more sense than whoever he did get with the 20th. Chych could be NHL ready this season, other dude who's name I forget, apparantly not for a few years. He was pegged as a 2nd rounder. Holland should have taken best available regardless of position with his pick. Max Jones was a no brainer. I know the Wings need defensive prospects, but Jones would have been a good trade piece to help get the D we need now, not in years.

[kickazz 5,459]

I think Holland would have drafted Chychrun had he still had the 16th pick. Would have made a lot more sense than whoever he did get with the 20th. Chych could be NHL ready this season, other dude who's name I forget, apparantly not for a few years. He was pegged as a 2nd rounder. Holland should have taken best available regardless of position with his pick. Max Jones was a no brainer. I know the Wings need defensive prospects, but Jones would have been a good trade piece to help get the D we need now, not in years.

No he wouldn't have been NHL ready this season because this is the Detroit Red Wings and they don't let prospects play in their first year.

Both Chych and Chowloski (they guy we picked) wouldn't have made the roster.

[Jacksoni 418]

No he wouldn't have been NHL ready this season because this is the Detroit Red Wings and they don't let prospects play in their first year.

Both Chych and Chowloski (they guy we picked) wouldn't have made the roster.

Cholowski. Barring a minor miracle. Which happened last year with Larkin. I agree though, it is most unlikely.

Should probably add that it's practically impossible so I don't get flak. Cholowski is a defenseman and won't be in the lineup for years.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Jacksoni