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kickazz

Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired? Poll/Discussion

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Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired?  

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6 hours ago, Number19 said:

Sergei, Pavel, Hank for me. I love Ozzie but he wasn't consistent enough. It would have worked wonders for his legacy if we won in 2009 and he captured the Conn Smythe.

Should've won it in 08. A couple guys had a great chance in 08. Z had that one shift in game 6 that made people vote for him. Still could've won it in 09, he was the best player on the ice.

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18 hours ago, kliq said:

I'm guessing he was thinking "led the '08 team" due to his Conn Smythe.

Yeah, my mistake. Z was an almost unstoppable force that year, especially in the final where he seemed to practically will the team to victory.

 

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13 and 40 for sure they were here for their whole career and carried this team with Lindstrom for this generation. Ozzy no I even had to think for a sec "who was 30?"  91 I tend to think yes but not as big of a deal if they dident. 13 and 40 are a big yes.

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21 hours ago, Krayzie_Bone said:

13 and 40 for sure they were here for their whole career and carried this team with Lindstrom for this generation. Ozzy no I even had to think for a sec "who was 30?"  91 I tend to think yes but not as big of a deal if they dident. 13 and 40 are a big yes.

Uh....13 walked away from his contract, if leaving Detroit disqualifies Fedorov, then no way to Datsyuk. Plus technically 13 was traded.

BUT, IMO all four should be yes.

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When #40 raised in the rafters some ya'll gonna eat uncooked crow. Ansar opinion about Z status. 

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2018/01/ask_ansar_on_futures_of_red_wi.html

Q: With Winnipeg in need of some help at center, is a Zetterberg for the Winnipeg first-rounder plausible? I know I already asked you last month about (Petr) Mrazek’s trade value, but do you think we could get Pittsburgh’s second-rounder with (Matt) Murray struggling? – Chris

A: Zetterberg isn’t going anywhere. He is one of those rare players, like the captains before him -- Steve Yzerman and Nicklas Lidstrom – who is destined to play his entire NHL career as a Red Wing and get his number raised to the rafters one day.

Edited by kickazz

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2 hours ago, kickazz said:

When #40 raised in the rafters some ya'll gonna eat uncooked crow. Ansar opinion about Z status. 

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2018/01/ask_ansar_on_futures_of_red_wi.html

Q: With Winnipeg in need of some help at center, is a Zetterberg for the Winnipeg first-rounder plausible? I know I already asked you last month about (Petr) Mrazek’s trade value, but do you think we could get Pittsburgh’s second-rounder with (Matt) Murray struggling? – Chris

A: Zetterberg isn’t going anywhere. He is one of those rare players, like the captains before him -- Steve Yzerman and Nicklas Lidstrom – who is destined to play his entire NHL career as a Red Wing and get his number raised to the rafters one day.

Holland already said in one of his offseason interviews that Z would be in the rafters.

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91-Fedorov: Stanley Cup, HOF, individual award = yes, now

13-Datsyuk: Stanley Cup, individual award = yes, after induction into HOF

40-Zetterberg: same as Datsyuk

30-Osgood: Stanley Cup, shared award = complicated

He does not have an individual award to his name nor is he in the HOF. Until then, no, his number should not be retired and placed in the rafters. Even of he gets into the Hall, its still dicey. I could go either way.

I would like to see some kind of official decirculation of jerseys too. We all know that Aurie's 6 and Vladdy's 16 are no longer used. Why not have a "Ring or Wall of Honor" to recognize them? Also, I would like to see Fischer's 8 added to it. I mean the guy almost died on the bench wearing a Wings jersey. 

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1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

91-Fedorov: Stanley Cup, HOF, individual award = yes, now

13-Datsyuk: Stanley Cup, individual award = yes, after induction into HOF

40-Zetterberg: same as Datsyuk

30-Osgood: Stanley Cup, shared award = complicated

He does not have an individual award to his name nor is he in the HOF. Until then, no, his number should not be retired and placed in the rafters. Even of he gets into the Hall, its still dicey. I could go either way.

I would like to see some kind of official decirculation of jerseys too. We all know that Aurie's 6 and Vladdy's 16 are no longer used. Why not have a "Ring or Wall of Honor" to recognize them? Also, I would like to see Fischer's 8 added to it. I mean the guy almost died on the bench wearing a Wings jersey. 

I'm almost positive Zetterberg's number will get retired soon after he retires from hockey just like Lidstrom and Yzerman's did. I'm not saying Z is as good of a player as Yzerman was or as good as Lidstrom. But the commitment he's given to the franchise is on par with Steve Yzerman and I'd even go as far as saying that it exceeds Nick Lidstrom.

No player in his position has a reason to continue playing. He's made approximately $100 million over the years. He could have left a while ago, instead he's teaching a new generation of players as his last duty. 

His number is getting retired 100%. I made this thread 2 years ago, everyone doubted it then. Holland came out in May of 2017 and said the words himself. 

I'll revisit this thread on the night it gets retired. Unless I die, then I assign @ChristopherReevesLegs to do the job. 

 

Edited by kickazz

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HOF induction by then or not, I would like to see Z and D raised at the same time.

The criteria of HOF, Stanley Cup and individual award are more of a guideline. Delvecchio never won an individual award. Chelios and Hasek accomplished all 3, but I wouldn't put them in the rafters. Honorable mention of some kind would be appropriate.

There was an interesting bleacher report article about how 24 should be retired to honor Probert, Chelios and Salei.

I think 30 and 91 won't be or they would have been by now. I don't believe anyone has worn them since, so maybe they're getting the Aurie treatment. Although I wouldn't mind a certain center from NY wearing 91.

 

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Well Chelios and Hasek, while being part of the Wings squad, certainly weren’t “true Red Wings”. Chelly was a Hawk and Hasek will always be known as the guy that carried the Sabres for years. They both came here much later in their careers when they were older and looking to get a cup before retiring. 

Yzerman, Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Datsyuk were Red Wings from their infancy (rookies) until their death (retirement) from NHL. They are true Red Wings from beginning to end. Problem with Datsyuk is how he left the team, it might end up hurting his chances. Maybe not. Fedorov obviously screwed up too (not once but twice), the jury is still out for him since #91 still isn’t worn by anyone.

It would be interesting if they retired #40 and maybe #13 but no mention of #91 is made. That might be it for his chances then.

Edited by kickazz

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Chelios played here longer than Chicago

I doubt OIsgood gets it.  The team appears to be warming up to Fedorov a bit, so it will probably happen.  Datsyuk and Zetterberg should go up together.  Just for the love of God don't do what the Pistons did and retire half the championship teams.

Edited by DickieDunn

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15 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Chelios played here longer than Chicago

I doubt OIsgood gets it.  The team appears to be warming up to Fedorov a bit, so it will probably happen.  Datsyuk and Zetterberg should go up together.  Just for the love of God don't do what the Pistons did and retire half the championship teams.

I dont think they will. If they were the Pistons the entire grind line, Holmer, and Shanny would be up there.

I think Z is a lock, Fedorov should be up there and I think he will sooner then later, I think Datsyuk will, and Osgood is such a tough one. IMO him getting in the HOF is a must, once that happens the discussion can begin. 

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3 hours ago, kliq said:

I dont think they will. If they were the Pistons the entire grind line, Holmer, and Shanny would be up there.

I think Z is a lock, Fedorov should be up there and I think he will sooner then later, I think Datsyuk will, and Osgood is such a tough one. IMO him getting in the HOF is a must, once that happens the discussion can begin. 

If the Wings did the Pistons way, Probert, Shanny, Chelios, Hasek, Murphy, Larionov, Fedorov, Konstantinov, Kozlov, Osgood, Vernon, Draper, McCarty, Maltby, Kocur, Hull, Robitaille, Lapointe, Homer, Brownov, Franzen, Rafalski, and probably even Dandenault would have their numbers retired and the guys would be stuck with numbers like 38, 49, and 63 now.

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The biggest pet peeve I have when it comes to assessing if a player should have his jersey retired or not is the argument:

"The bar is Howe, Lidstrom, Yzerman, are they at then level? If not, then no".

This is such flawed logic, as it would be like saying a player should not be in the HOF unless they are at the level of Gretzky, Howe, or Orr. If that was the case we would only have a hand full of guys in the HOF.

To me, the bar to get in begins at the floor, not the ceiling. 

So the question is, are those 4 at the at the level of Abel, Lindsay, Sawchuk, and Delvecchio. I believe 3 are, the other (Osgood) I am still on the fence.

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3 hours ago, kliq said:

The biggest pet peeve I have when it comes to assessing if a player should have his jersey retired or not is the argument:

"The bar is Howe, Lidstrom, Yzerman, are they at then level? If not, then no".

This is such flawed logic, as it would be like saying a player should not be in the HOF unless they are at the level of Gretzky, Howe, or Orr. If that was the case we would only have a hand full of guys in the HOF.

To me, the bar to get in begins at the floor, not the ceiling. 

So the question is, are those 4 at the at the level of Abel, Lindsay, Sawchuk, and Delvecchio. I believe 3 are, the other (Osgood) I am still on the fence.

Yep.

Also I mentioned this in an earlier post. But neither of Lindsay, Abel or Delvecchio had their jerseys retired till the 1990s. 20-30 years after they retired from hockey. 

A lot of people don't know this and they just spew out that stupid argument. "Oh why should Z and D be retired? They're not at the same level as Lindsay or Abel"

Know your s*** before you use that as your premise. The only reason Lindsay, Abel and Delvecchio got their jerseys retired is because Mike Illitch LOWERED the bar. The bar used to be Gordie Howe. He was the ONLY number retired for 20 years for the entire Wings franchise (not including the Aurie fiasco). All you smart alecs that use that argument, see below and pay attention to the dates. Godam pet peeve of mine too @kliq. I probably had the same line of thinking though, until I actually went and looked some of this stuff up. Part of the issue is that a lot of these older players from the 50s and 60s are created to be legends by our parents etc. And they were definitely great players but the perception is not necessarily the reality. Zetterberg and Datsyuk have both surpassed Lindsay and Abel. That's the reality but it's hard for some people to swallow something they haven't witnessed.  

Detroit Red Wings retired numbers
No. Player Position Career Number retirement
1 Terry Sawchuk G 1949–1955, 1957–1964, 1968–1969 March 6, 1994[282]
5 Nicklas Lidstrom D 1991–2012 March 6, 2014[280]
7 Ted Lindsay LW 1944–1957, 1964–1965 November 10, 1991[283]
9 Gordie Howe RW 1946–1971 March 12, 1972[277]
10 Alex Delvecchio C 1950–1974 November 10, 1991[284]
12 Sid Abel C 1938–1943, 1945–1952 April 29, 1995[285]
19 Steve Yzerman C 1983–2006 January 2, 2007[161]

 

Edited by kickazz

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44 minutes ago, kliq said:

To me, the bar to get in begins at the floor, not the ceiling. 

So the question is, are those 4 at the at the level of Abel, Lindsay, Sawchuk, and Delvecchio. I believe 3 are, the other (Osgood) I am still on the fence.

It's not even a question. Both Zetterberg and to a certain extent Datsyuk have surpassed Ted Lindsay in terms of franchise records and numbers. Lindsay and Abel are the floor. #40, #13 and #91 are in the middle. The ceiling is Howe, followed by Yzerman/Delvecchio. Of course the whole individual trophy thing is the question. Lindsay won a Ross and Abel won a Hart. But Datsyuk won (A lot) of Selkes and Byngs and Z won the Conn Smyth so there's that. 

Points
1. Gordie Howe* 1809
2. Steve Yzerman* 1755
3. Alex Delvecchio* 1281
4. Nicklas Lidstrom* 1142
5. Sergei Fedorov* 954
6. Henrik Zetterberg 932
7. Pavel Datsyuk 918
8. Norm Ullman* 758
9. Ted Lindsay* 728
10. Brendan Shanahan*

 

Games Played
1. Gordie Howe* 1687
2. Nicklas Lidstrom* 1564
3. Alex Delvecchio* 1549
4. Steve Yzerman* 1514
5. Kris Draper 1137
6. Henrik Zetterberg 1040
7. Tomas Holmstrom 1026
8. Marcel Pronovost* 983
9. Pavel Datsyuk 953
10. Sergei Fedorov* 908
  Kirk Maltby
Edited by kickazz

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Avs just raised Hejduk's 23 last night. So although the Wings seem to have higher standards than most, the Howe standard would have been ridiculous. Then you would be questioning Y and Lids even.

Ullman is also intriguing, Stanley Cup, HOF, but no individual awards. Pronovost- HOF, Richard trophy, but no Stanley Cup (it sucks that his first season with the Wings was 55-56). Both had long careers and played significant amounts of time with the Wings.

Edited by Neomaxizoomdweebie

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7 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Avs just raised Hejduk's 23 last night. So although the Wings seem to have higher standards than most, the Howe standard would have been ridiculous. Then you would be questioning Y and Lids even.

Yeah imagine being a franchise and having just one number retired until 1991. Yeah that was us lol. If anything Chris Illitch is even more lenient than Mike Illitch was. 

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