Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired? Poll/Discussion

[krsmith17 7,191]

34 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I admit when I'm wrong. Was never wrong about Franzen. Hossa was the clear choice and Franzen never lived up to his contract, even before he was injured all the time. But that is an OLD subject. Let's move on back to topic. My only point was don't include me in the laughs because I was never against or wrong about 40 going up, laugh at me when I am clearly wrong and you (not you personally) are clearly right.  I will admit it and laugh along with you...just like with Mrazek. (I'm still crossing my fingers on DD though!)

You were dead wrong about Franzen, and he was absolutely worth his contract. Under $4M for a 0.75 point per game player is a steal. Was he better than Hossa? No. But again, nothing to brag about there either. I don't think a single person ever thought Franzen was a better player than Hossa. Anyway, like I said, it's a pointless argument, so I'll leave it at that...

40 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I admit when I'm wrong. Was never wrong about Franzen. Hossa was the clear choice and Franzen never lived up to his contract, even before he was injured all the time. But that is an OLD subject. Let's move on back to topic. My only point was don't include me in the laughs because I was never against or wrong about 40 going up, laugh at me when I am clearly wrong and you (not you personally) are clearly right.  I will admit it and laugh along with you...just like with Mrazek. (I'm still crossing my fingers on DD though!)

Again, as my opinion has been and still remains, ALL FOUR should be up in the rafters, but its not up to us as fans, and that is too bad! I think that for his contributions to the Dynasty and the continued success of this team #96 should get serious consideration. I'd even consider #33 and #18, but now I am pushing it. But like I said, the #'s retirement is a fan thing and an appreciation of what that player did for the franchise and the fans. I understand that Holland (or whoever decides) has a much different measuring stick and unfortunately its the fans that are losing out.

I think if we retired all four of these, then also 8, 18, 33, 14, 96 (not all at once) it really wouldn't water down the high standards that the organization holds, those guys are really the main cogs that were around for our entire Dynasty and even though there were a few others, those 5 is where I'd stop it, because it would be a huge can of worms I we tried to honor all of them....but I know it won't happen, so don't think I seriously feel it will.

Of course I also have a good argument for Red Kelly and Marcel Pronovost....but now we're talking strict personal opinions!

Why don't we just retire every number from all 4 Cup teams? What about 25? He was a part of all 4 Cup teams? What about 17? He was vital to that '08 Cup. What about 20? 55?...

[LeftWinger 4,951]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

You were dead wrong about Franzen, and he was absolutely worth his contract. Under $4M for a 0.75 point per game player is a steal. Was he better than Hossa? No. But again, nothing to brag about there either. I don't think a single person ever thought Franzen was a better player than Hossa. Anyway, like I said, it's a pointless argument, so I'll leave it at that...

Why don't we just retire every number from all 4 Cup teams? What about 25? He was a part of all 4 Cup teams? What about 17? He was vital to that '08 Cup. What about 20? 55?...

No, to all your sarcastic questions. If you look at the numbers I listed, they were and are a whole different class of player than the rest of the players. Especially the ones you listed in jest.

[chaps80 1,591]

I would have taken Hossa over Franzen as well, especially at that point in time. Would have gotten more out of Hossa. Not just in points, but in longetivity (I know, hindsight). Hossa was a scoring machine. Until Vanek came around, I hadn’t seen a player come to Detroit with close to as much natural scoring talent. Hossa and Vanek handle shootouts by taking a couple strides and ripping a quick shot top corner. Too quick and accurate for a goalie to have a chance.

[kickazz 5,459]

8 hours ago, chaps80 said:

That because Fuhr won a Vezina and Osgood didn’t, it somehow makes him more hall worthy. It’s one award, won in a single season. Some long forgotten goalies have won one. 

Fuhr finished his career with 403 wins and a 3.38 GAA. Had 92 playoff wins with a 2.92 GAA. Osgood numbers are much better, and the win totals are very close.

Other than the Vezina and a couple more All Star selections, there isn’t much that separates them. Fuhr had more “down” seasons than Osgood did, especially in his Toronto and Buffalo days. I think Fuhr is regarded so highly because of his connection to the Oilers dynasty and Gretzky, Messier, etc. As I said above, Andy Moog and Bill Ranford won Cups with them too. 

Fuhr and Osgood are two very similar goalies career wise. Both won multiple Cups on powerhouse teams, Fuhr has more wins, Osgood has better numbers. But Fuhr has his number retired, is in the HHOF and considered one of the greatest 100 NHLers, while Osgood can’t even get his number retired. 

Rogie Vachon is in the Hall though, so I guess there’s hope for anyone. 

You should go look up how many goalies in the hall of fame have a Vezina. Doesn't look good for Osgood to be honest. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

13 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

And YOU can count on meeting me in the parking lot.

[kliq 3,755]

16 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

And YOU can count on meeting me in the parking lot.

[chaps80 1,591]

23 hours ago, kickazz said:

You should go look up how many goalies in the hall of fame have a Vezina. Doesn't look good for Osgood to be honest. 

No, there sure aren't many. Only Gerry Cheevers and Chuck Rayner among HHOFs who played in the NHL. I don't think that one award should be the be all end all of requirements though, there are plenty of other things to consider. To base things strictly on NHL Awards and Cups though, this should be the current order of eligible goalies, strictly imo:

Brodeur: Calder Trophy: 1994 Jennings Trophy: 1997, 1998, 2003, 2004, 2010
Vezina Trophy: 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008 Stanley Cup: 1995, 2000, 2003

Barrasso: Calder Trophy: 1984 Vezina Trophy: 1984 Jennings Trophy:1985 Stanley Cup: 1991, 1992

Thomas: Jennings Trophy: 2009 Vezina Trophy: 2009, 2011 Smythe Trophy: 2011 Stanley Cup: 2011

Vernon: Jennings Trophy: 1996 Smythe Trophy: 1997 Stanley Cup: 1989, 1997

Osgood: Jennings Trophy: 1996, 2008 Stanley Cup: 1997, 1998, 2008

Joseph: Clancy Trophy: 2000

Brodeur is obviously first ballot shoe in. Thomas and Barrasso could be flip flopped. Thomas didn't play in the NHL very long (only real arguement against him), but he's the only goalie since Parent to win the Vezina, Smythe, and Cup all in one season. Barrasso has been kept out purely due to his attitude apparently. Vernon ahead of Osgood because of the Smythe, and Vernon was the starter for the same 1997 Cup. Both will probably be waiting awhile. Joseph may not ever get in at all, despite his numbers and talent. Which is a shame as he was top 5 of his era, and the only one not currently in the hall or a pending shoe in.

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, chaps80 said:

No, there sure aren't many. Only Gerry Cheevers and Chuck Rayner among HHOFs who played in the NHL. I don't think that one award should be the be all end all of requirements though, there are plenty of other things to consider. To base things strictly on NHL Awards and Cups though, this should be the current order of eligible goalies, strictly imo:

Brodeur: Calder Trophy: 1994 Jennings Trophy: 1997, 1998, 2003, 2004, 2010
Vezina Trophy: 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008 Stanley Cup: 1995, 2000, 2003

Barrasso: Calder Trophy: 1984 Vezina Trophy: 1984 Jennings Trophy:1985 Stanley Cup: 1991, 1992

Thomas: Jennings Trophy: 2009 Vezina Trophy: 2009, 2011 Smythe Trophy: 2011 Stanley Cup: 2011

Vernon: Jennings Trophy: 1996 Smythe Trophy: 1997 Stanley Cup: 1989, 1997

Osgood: Jennings Trophy: 1996, 2008 Stanley Cup: 1997, 1998, 2008

Joseph: Clancy Trophy: 2000

Brodeur is obviously first ballot shoe in. Thomas and Barrasso could be flip flopped. Thomas didn't play in the NHL very long (only real arguement against him), but he's the only goalie since Parent to win the Vezina, Smythe, and Cup all in one season. Barrasso has been kept out purely due to his attitude apparently. Vernon ahead of Osgood because of the Smythe, and Vernon was the starter for the same 1997 Cup. Both will probably be waiting awhile. Joseph may not ever get in at all, despite his numbers and talent. Which is a shame as he was top 5 of his era, and the only one not currently in the hall or a pending shoe in.

The answer is theres literally zero goalies since 1980 that got in without a Vezina (unless I missed someone). Doesn’t bode well for Osgood. I think only 3 or so ever got in without a Vezina since 1960. But it was either because they played in another league and somehow contributed to NHL or some other exception. 

[kliq 3,755]

2 hours ago, chaps80 said:

No, there sure aren't many. Only Gerry Cheevers and Chuck Rayner among HHOFs who played in the NHL. I don't think that one award should be the be all end all of requirements though, there are plenty of other things to consider. To base things strictly on NHL Awards and Cups though, this should be the current order of eligible goalies, strictly imo:

Brodeur: Calder Trophy: 1994 Jennings Trophy: 1997, 1998, 2003, 2004, 2010
Vezina Trophy: 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008 Stanley Cup: 1995, 2000, 2003

Barrasso: Calder Trophy: 1984 Vezina Trophy: 1984 Jennings Trophy:1985 Stanley Cup: 1991, 1992

Thomas: Jennings Trophy: 2009 Vezina Trophy: 2009, 2011 Smythe Trophy: 2011 Stanley Cup: 2011

Vernon: Jennings Trophy: 1996 Smythe Trophy: 1997 Stanley Cup: 1989, 1997

Osgood: Jennings Trophy: 1996, 2008 Stanley Cup: 1997, 1998, 2008

Joseph: Clancy Trophy: 2000

Brodeur is obviously first ballot shoe in. Thomas and Barrasso could be flip flopped. Thomas didn't play in the NHL very long (only real arguement against him), but he's the only goalie since Parent to win the Vezina, Smythe, and Cup all in one season. Barrasso has been kept out purely due to his attitude apparently. Vernon ahead of Osgood because of the Smythe, and Vernon was the starter for the same 1997 Cup. Both will probably be waiting awhile. Joseph may not ever get in at all, despite his numbers and talent. Which is a shame as he was top 5 of his era, and the only one not currently in the hall or a pending shoe in.

Is Belfour in? 

[chaps80 1,591]

4 hours ago, kliq said:

Is Belfour in? 

Yep.

[chaps80 1,591]

5 hours ago, kickazz said:

The answer is theres literally zero goalies since 1980 that got in without a Vezina (unless I missed someone). Doesn’t bode well for Osgood. I think only 3 or so ever got in without a Vezina since 1960. But it was either because they played in another league and somehow contributed to NHL or some other exception. 

Only 8. 4 played before the NHL or the award existed, 3 played in the NHL after it existed (Benedict, Rayner, Cheevers), and 1 didn’t play in North America at all (Tretiak). 

So ya, the Vezina is usually on the resume of an inducted goalie. But, goalies that have numerous other awards, plus consistent career numbers and longetivity in the game are few enough that exceptions should be made. Exceptions are made at other positions. Guys like Federko and Goulet for example. They put up a lot of points, Goulet is in the 500+ goal club, and Federko owns a lot of STL records, but neither hold any league records, any individual awards, or Cups. They got in based purely on stats.

[kickazz 5,459]

51 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

Only 8. 4 played before the NHL or the award existed, 3 played in the NHL after it existed (Benedict, Rayner, Cheevers), and 1 didn’t play in North America at all (Tretiak). 

So ya, the Vezina is usually on the resume of an inducted goalie. But, goalies that have numerous other awards, plus consistent career numbers and longetivity in the game are few enough that exceptions should be made. Exceptions are made at other positions. Guys like Federko and Goulet for example. They put up a lot of points, Goulet is in the 500+ goal club, and Federko owns a lot of STL records, but neither hold any league records, any individual awards, or Cups. They got in based purely on stats.

Osgood has a Jennings he shared with a goalie. You say numerous other awards. He has none. 

I’m not saying Osgood won’t get in. I’m just saying you make it seem like he deserves number retirement (which is tougher than Hall of Fame), yet he might not even get HoF at this point because of the standards thay are seemed to be set by his fellow tenders.

You say stats but his GAA and sv% was worse than Manny Legace.

It’s not as obvious or easy as you think. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

I personally love that the Red Wings are an organization that only retires the numbers of the elite of the elite. I don't think #30 should be retired, nor do I think any member of the grindline should be retired... I'd love to see #91 eventually retired, but I also understand the reason it likely won't. For the same reason, #13 may never be retired either. #40 should be the next number retired, and the only other one from that era in my opinion. After that, hopefully in 20+ years #71, #39, and #26, among others, will have been elite enough to at least be in the conversation...

[LeftWinger 4,951]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I personally love that the Red Wings are an organization that only retires the numbers of the elite of the elite. I don't think #30 should be retired, nor do I think any member of the grindline should be retired... I'd love to see #91 eventually retired, but I also understand the reason it likely won't. For the same reason, #13 may never be retired either. #40 should be the next number retired, and the only other one from that era in my opinion. After that, hopefully in 20+ years #71, #39, and #26, among others, will have been elite enough to at least be in the conversation...

Ok, I feel like a dillard, who is #26?

[krsmith17 7,191]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 11:43 AM, LeftWinger said:

Ok, I feel like a dillard, who is #26?

Dahlin.img

Edited September 25, 2019 by krsmith17

[chaps80 1,591]

14 hours ago, kickazz said:

Osgood has a Jennings he shared with a goalie. You say numerous other awards. He has none. 

I’m not saying Osgood won’t get in. I’m just saying you make it seem like he deserves number retirement (which is tougher than Hall of Fame), yet he might not even get HoF at this point because of the standards thay are seemed to be set by his fellow tenders.

You say stats but his GAA and sv% was worse than Manny Legace.

It’s not as obvious or easy as you think. 

Awards include Stanley Cups.

Osgood: 2.49 GAA, 9.06 sv%, 401 wins, 50 shutouts.  

Legace: 2.42 GAA, 9.11 sv%, 123 wins, 24 shutouts. 

Regular season GAA and sv% May as well be the same. Minuscule difference. Legace played around half the total NHL seasons Osgood did as well. 

I won’t even get started on comparing their playoff stats.

Its not easy shoe in status, he will be waiting for the Hall. But as far as Detroit goes, he deserves the jersey retirement. Look at all time stats. Which two names pop up most? Sawchuk and Osgood. On an Original 6 team. Come on man. Lol

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, chaps80 said:

Awards include Stanley Cups.

Osgood: 2.49 GAA, 9.06 sv%, 401 wins, 50 shutouts.  

Legace: 2.42 GAA, 9.11 sv%, 123 wins, 24 shutouts. 

Regular season GAA and sv% May as well be the same. Minuscule difference. Legace played around half the total NHL seasons Osgood did as well. 

I won’t even get started on comparing their playoff stats.

Its not easy shoe in status, he will be waiting for the Hall. But as far as Detroit goes, he deserves the jersey retirement. Look at all time stats. Which two names pop up most? Sawchuk and Osgood. On an Original 6 team. Come on man. Lol

Brenden Shanahan has 3 Cups. Should we retire his number too? 

Edited April 8, 2018 by kickazz

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

13 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Kid is a walking advertisement.  Hideous euro hockey league jerseys.

9 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Brenden Shanahan has 3 Cups. Should we retire his number too? 

If it means not seeing Nyquist wearing it anymore, I'm all for it.

[marcaractac 3,962]

8 hours ago, kickazz said:

Brenden Shanahan has 3 Cups. Should we retire his number too? 

Pfffft. Draper, Maltby and Dmac each have 4. To the rafters they go!

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

22 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

LOL. NASCAR jersey.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[LeftWinger 4,951]

10 hours ago, kickazz said:

Brenden Shanahan has 3 Cups. Should we retire his number too? 

Yes

2 hours ago, marcaractac said:

Pfffft. Draper, Maltby and Dmac each have 4. To the rafters they go!

Nah, not McCarty

[krsmith17 7,191]

23 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Nah, not McCarty

Why should #33 and #18 be retired and not #25? McCarty had better numbers in the regular season and playoffs than Draper or Maltby. D-Mac had a much bigger impact in those first three Cup runs ('97, '98 and '02). He was a warrior, and a pivotal piece in that rivalry vs the Avs. I'm not saying #25 should be retired. It shouldn't. But neither should #33 or #18...

I can't believe people are actually advocating retiring so many jersey numbers of mediocre players. Why? Because they were heart and soul guys? Sure, let's retire #8 and #41 in 10 years when Abdelkader and Glendening retire. That's pretty much who the modern day Draper and Maltby are...

[LeftWinger 4,951]

nah, #8 should go up for Larionov if it goes up.

[kickazz 5,459]

@chaps80 Marc Andre Fleury has more wins than Osgood. He has 404 wins, 3 stanley cups. Hall of fame + Number retirement? 

He’s only 33 btw. 

Edited April 8, 2018 by kickazz

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

@chaps80 Marc Andre Fleury has more wins than Osgood. He has 404 wins, 3 stanley cups. Hall of fame + Number retirement? 

He’s only 33 btw. 

The Penguins probably will retire his number.  He might make the Hall of Fame depending on whether he can bag another Cup, reach more wins, and maybe win a Vezina.  You have to remember, though, that two of those Cups belong to Murray more than Fleury.  So he hasn't won 3 Cups as starter.  

Edited April 8, 2018 by GMRwings1983