Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired? Poll/Discussion

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

3 hours ago, kickazz said:

@chaps80 Marc Andre Fleury has more wins than Osgood. He has 404 wins, 3 stanley cups. Hall of fame + Number retirement? 

He’s only 33 btw. 

I say yes and yes.

The one number that the Wings should not have retired is 99. The idea of retiring one players' number league-wide is dumb. Yes, he has the greatest numbers in the history of the NHL, but its not like he was a trailblazer of any kind or had any meaningful contribution to the sport other than that. Theoretically, if someone else passes him, do you make everyone retire their number too? Why not make everyone retire #9? Gordie Howe was the Babe Ruth of the NHL, and he was just as important to the sport as Gretzky was. Oilers, Blues, Kings, Rangers are the only teams that should have 99 retired.

[kliq 3,755]

53 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I say yes and yes.

The one number that the Wings should not have retired is 99. The idea of retiring one players' number league-wide is dumb. Yes, he has the greatest numbers in the history of the NHL, but its not like he was a trailblazer of any kind or had any meaningful contribution to the sport other than that. Theoretically, if someone else passes him, do you make everyone retire their number too? Why not make everyone retire #9? Gordie Howe was the Babe Ruth of the NHL, and he was just as important to the sport as Gretzky was. Oilers, Blues, Kings, Rangers are the only teams that should have 99 retired.

I dont think we ever have to worry about this happening.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

14 minutes ago, kliq said:

I dont think we ever have to worry about this happening.

True. But like warp speed, its still theoretically possible.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I say yes and yes.

The one number that the Wings should not have retired is 99. The idea of retiring one players' number league-wide is dumb. Yes, he has the greatest numbers in the history of the NHL, but its not like he was a trailblazer of any kind or had any meaningful contribution to the sport other than that. Theoretically, if someone else passes him, do you make everyone retire their number too? Why not make everyone retire #9? Gordie Howe was the Babe Ruth of the NHL, and he was just as important to the sport as Gretzky was. Oilers, Blues, Kings, Rangers are the only teams that should have 99 retired.

Seriously?  Gretzky didn't have any contribution to hockey besides numbers?  

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

30 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Seriously?  Gretzky didn't have any contribution to hockey besides numbers?  

Compared to someone like Jackie Robinson, Roberto Clemente, or Willie O'Ree...No. He's basically the Michael Jordan of the NHL. I didn't see the NBA retire 23 league wide. Although ironically the Heat did for some reason.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

There are 63 players in the HHOF that have suited up for the Red Wings, If we retired all their number, there would be barely enough left to fill a roster plus callups. There obviously has to be strict criteria when there are only 98 numbers available now. Especially for a team that has been around since 1926. And their are only 7 of those 63 in the rafters: 11%. The criteria of Stanley Cup, HHOF, Individual Award, and most years played doesn't even apply to all those 5 up there now. It does however apply to Fedorov, Chelios, and soon Z and Datsyuk which is why I think those 4 should be retired. No to Osgood.

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

There are 63 players in the HHOF that have suited up for the Red Wings, If we retired all their number, there would be barely enough left to fill a roster plus callups. There obviously has to be strict criteria when there are only 98 numbers available now. Especially for a team that has been around since 1926. And their are only 7 of those 63 in the rafters: 11%. The criteria of Stanley Cup, HHOF, Individual Award, and most years played doesn't even apply to all those 5 up there now. It does however apply to Fedorov, Chelios, and soon Z and Datsyuk which is why I think those 4 should be retired. No to Osgood.

The criteria is basically spending your entire career with the Red Wings and being an HOF player.

So Zetterberg, Dats, Feds, maybe Osgood (still no Hall for him yet). 

Chelios has no chance. His prime was not with Detroit. He was known more for his Chicago days.

Edited April 8, 2018 by kickazz

[RightWeiner 17]

Yes to Days, Zetts and Feds. No to Osgood.

[LeftWinger 4,959]

There goes the neighborhood...

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

On 4/8/2018 at 3:44 PM, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Compared to someone like Jackie Robinson, Roberto Clemente, or Willie O'Ree...No. He's basically the Michael Jordan of the NHL. I didn't see the NBA retire 23 league wide. Although ironically the Heat did for some reason.

What about the idea that he saved hockey by going to LA, as after that move, the NHL greatly expanded to non-traditional markets.  Is that all B.S?

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

19 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

What about the idea that he saved hockey by going to LA, as after that move, the NHL greatly expanded to non-traditional markets.  Is that all B.S?

He was traded to LA and continued to put up points. He didn't do anything differently than he did in Edmonton, just in a bigger city. That doesn't exactly make him any kind of trailblazer. I agree, he brought a bigger spotlight to the sport by playing in a nationally marketed city, but that was hardly anything groundbreaking.

Jordan did exactly the same thing in the NBA and yet 23 is still used by players today. 

[kickazz 5,459]

Yeah I’m not quite sure why Gretzky’s number is retired league wide. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if his records do actually get broken eventually within the next 50 years or so. Players are just getting better, faster, stronger. Just 10 years ago the NHL was slow. It’s lightning fast now. In 50 years who knows how these players will be.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

59 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

He was traded to LA and continued to put up points. He didn't do anything differently than he did in Edmonton, just in a bigger city. That doesn't exactly make him any kind of trailblazer. I agree, he brought a bigger spotlight to the sport by playing in a nationally marketed city, but that was hardly anything groundbreaking.

Jordan did exactly the same thing in the NBA and yet 23 is still used by players today. 

Did expansion to smaller markets in the South happen because of Jordan, though?  The NBA had a big boom in the 80's because of Magic and Bird.  

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 hours ago, kickazz said:

Yeah I’m not quite sure why Gretzky’s number is retired league wide. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if his records do actually get broken eventually within the next 50 years or so. Players are just getting better, faster, stronger. Just 10 years ago the NHL was slow. It’s lightning fast now. In 50 years who knows how these players will be.

Don't forget younger. I think the age difference from 10+ years ago, is a huge factor in the drastic change in the NHL as well.

This is exactly why I don't think Gretzky's records will ever be broken though. The league is going to continue to get younger, faster, stronger and just more skilled overall. That goes for every position though. So while forwards are getting much more skilled and can make plays out of seemingly nothing, defense are also more skilled and better at reading and breaking up these plays. Goalies are also bigger and much more positionally sound, and coaches stifle offense.

I think Gretzky's dominance in his era had more to do with the fact that a lot of the players in the league at the time simply weren't as good, as it was about how great he was. And he was Great. That's no knock on the Lemieux's, Bossy's and Stastny's of the league, but more so a knock on the number of no name 3rd and 4th line and 3rd pair plugs in the league.

The NHL is all about parity now. The difference between the top tier teams to bottom tier teams and top tier players to bottom tier players is getting smaller, and is going to continue in that direction. It's getting much harder to dominate the way Gretzky did his era in today's game.

I know it's always a sticky subject to compare eras, but I truly do believe that if you swap McDavid into the 80's/90's era and Gretzky into today's era, we'd be debating whether or not anyone (maybe this Gretzky kid) can break McDavid's ridiculous records...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

This is what separates Lidstrom and Zetterberg from Fedorov and Datsyuk. Commitment to being a Red Wing, for better or worse, for life. If Fedorov/Datsyuk wanted or expected to have their numbers retired, they would not have left the team on negative terms.

[Learn2LuvIt 245]

5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

This is what separates Lidstrom and Zetterberg from Fedorov and Datsyuk. Commitment to being a Red Wing, for better or worse, for life. If Fedorov/Datsyuk wanted or expected to have their numbers retired, they would not have left the team on negative terms.

IMO- I didn't really view Dats departure as being on negative terms.  He said for years he wanted to return home to Russia to raise his kids and live out the rest of his life.  In my book, that's fair of him to do. Does it tarnish is legacy within the Wings organization and fan base, highly likely.  However, I think what he did was on the up-and-up and transparent. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 minutes ago, Learn2LuvIt said:

IMO- I didn't really view Dats departure as being on negative terms.  He said for years he wanted to return home to Russia to raise his kids and live out the rest of his life.  In my book, that's fair of him to do. Does it tarnish is legacy within the Wings organization and fan base, highly likely.  However, I think what he did was on the up-and-up and transparent. 

It was not. He abandoned his contact.

As Keith Gave pointed out, the organization was not happy with this. It's one thing to leave once the contract is over, but he broke the terms in the middle of it. And that is Datsyuk and Milstein's fault for agreeing to terms Datsyuk did not plan to fulfill, or later decided not to fulfill. Either way, that's the exact opposite of being on the up-and-up.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

27 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

It was not. He abandoned his contact.

As Keith Gave pointed out, the organization was not happy with this. It's one thing to leave once the contract is over, but he broke the terms in the middle of it. And that is Datsyuk and Milstein's fault for agreeing to terms Datsyuk did not plan to fulfill, or later decided not to fulfill. Either way, that's the exact opposite of being on the up-and-up.

He was upset at the way Russians were portrayed by the American media, so he left.  Not like he went to play for the Bruins or something.  

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

He was upset at the way Russians were portrayed by the American media, so he left.  Not like he went to play for the Bruins or something.  

Well he should come back now that Putin is in the white house.

I don't care where he went, breaking a contract is breaking a contract. It's impossible to abandon a contract for another NHL team anyhow.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

16 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Did expansion to smaller markets in the South happen because of Jordan, though?  The NBA had a big boom in the 80's because of Magic and Bird.  

True to some extent. A lot of people give credit to Bird and Magic for "saving the league", but they played on the coasts. Middle America didn't really start tuning in to the NBA until Jordan. What Bird and Magic started, Jordan escalated. During his time in the NBA, the league grew from 23 teams to 30. So yes, I credit Jordan more for that than I do Bird and Johnson. Before the Pistons and Bulls, the NBA was pretty much an East Coast, West Coast league because it was always between the Lakers and Celtics for the Championship during the 80's. Although the "Bad Boys" had some HOF guys, they never had anyone of Jordan's caliber. Those 90's Bulls teams did more to grow the NBA than anything before that.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[Learn2LuvIt 245]

55 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

It was not. He abandoned his contact.

As Keith Gave pointed out, the organization was not happy with this. It's one thing to leave once the contract is over, but he broke the terms in the middle of it. And that is Datsyuk and Milstein's fault for agreeing to terms Datsyuk did not plan to fulfill, or later decided not to fulfill. Either way, that's the exact opposite of being on the up-and-up.

Fair point.  I just don't see this as a total D#ck move as he wanted to return to his home country for family reasons, and he never tried to hide that fact as a secret.  I guess I have some compassion for a guy that gave 14 years of his life to the Wings, to leave and return home to his native country to be with his children.  As a parent, I can totally relate.  Yes, he broke his contract with one year left to go, I get it.  It's not like he was breaking the contract to play more golf in Palm Springs.  I won't hate on him for this.  He gave us too many great years of his life and played a SIGNIFICANT role in us winning two Stanley Cups. 

When it comes to Wings player resentment, there is a lot more low hanging fruit than Pav.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Learn2LuvIt

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

14 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Agreed.  Jordan did NOT do the same thing for the NBA.  He did not transcend.  He just dominated.

Same can be said about Gretzky. No individual player should ever be bigger than his sport. Not Gretzky, not Jordan, not Tiger, etc. No one player should be so "big" that they have a league mandate to retire their number. Not even 42. Individual players always benefit more from their sport than the sport benefits from one individual.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 hours ago, Learn2LuvIt said:

Fair point.  I just don't see this as a total D#ck move as he wanted to return to his home country for family reasons, and he never tried to hide that fact as a secret.  I guess I have some compassion for a guy that gave 14 years of his life to the Wings, to leave and return home to his native country to be with his children.  As a parent, I can totally relate.  Yes, he broke his contract with one year left to go, I get it.  It's not like he was breaking the contract to play more golf in Palm Springs.  I won't hate on him for this.  He gave us too many great years of his life and played a SIGNIFICANT role in us winning two Stanley Cups. 

When it comes to Wings player resentment, there is a lot more low hanging fruit than Pav.

Your arguing from emotion. I love Pav too. I appreciate everything he did for us and I'm thankful for the cups he brought us. But not every player I have fond memories of gets to go up. The vast majority don't.

The facts are he severed ties with the team while still under obligation to play. That's not an ok thing to do. Contracts are a two-way street and he knowingly agreed to the terms. Datsyuk made a lot of money playing for this team for 15 years and, despite having just one year left to go, he felt it more prudent to abandon his contract and his team.

He alluded to wanting to return home to Russia for a long time, and that's fine. But he should have done the respectable thing and negotiated for lesser term, or played out his final year. You don't get away with breach of contract just because you have dank dangles and a few cups.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

3 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

True to some extent. A lot of people give credit to Bird and Magic for "saving the league", but they played on the coasts. Middle America didn't really start tuning in to the NBA until Jordan. What Bird and Magic started, Jordan escalated. During his time in the NBA, the league grew from 23 teams to 30. So yes, I credit Jordan more for that than I do Bird and Johnson. Before the Pistons and Bulls, the NBA was pretty much an East Coast, West Coast league because it was always between the Lakers and Celtics for the Championship during the 80's. Although the "Bad Boys" had some HOF guys, they never had anyone of Jordan's caliber. Those 90's Bulls teams did more to grow the NBA than anything before that.

I disagree.  Teams like the Heat, Magic, Timberwolves and Hornets all joined the league before Jordan even won a championship.  The only teams that joined the league in the 90's were the two Canadian teams.  The Hornets then moved to New Orleans and the Grizzlies moved to Memphis.  Jordan didn't have any effect on this.  Sure he made the game more popular, but the NBA's best ratings were in the 80's during the Lakers/Celtics/Pistons rivalries.  I can't say the league expanded in the US because of Jordan.  

Gretzky, on the other hand went to the Kings right before the NHL started expanding and moving into new markets in the South.  Whether that's all because of him is debatable, but there's certainly an argument to be made there.  

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Your arguing from emotion. I love Pav too. I appreciate everything he did for us and I'm thankful for the cups he brought us. But not every player I have fond memories of gets to go up. The vast majority don't.

The facts are he severed ties with the team while still under obligation to play. That's not an ok thing to do. Contracts are a two-way street and he knowingly agreed to the terms. Datsyuk made a lot of money playing for this team for 15 years and, despite having just one year left to go, he felt it more prudent to abandon his contract and his team.

He alluded to wanting to return home to Russia for a long time, and that's fine. But he should have done the respectable thing and negotiated for lesser term, or played out his final year. You don't get away with breach of contract just because you have dank dangles and a few cups.