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kickazz

Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired? Poll/Discussion

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Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired?  

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Fedorov did play pretty much his entire career in Detroit. Plus he was arguably our best player during his time here. There should be no debate, ilitch needs to do this for the fans. He was, perhaps, the greatest Russian player of all time. I give him top 10 nhl player as well.

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From looking at the other names in the rafters, outside of Sawchuk, all the other players played either all or almost all of their NHL careers in Detroit. Red Kelly's number isn't retired for the same reason, and he's better than Fedorov was. If Fedorov stayed in Detroit, of course he'd be up there. Everyone knows that. And before we get to Sawchuk, he's a top 5 all-time goalie and the best goalie in Wings history. That's why he gets a pass despite playing for other original 6 teams.

So the standard seems to be that you have to be a HOF player and have to play pretty much your entire career in Detroit.

I have a feeling you are in the minority here. From my understanding, Kelly never won a Hart trophy which when you think about it, is an amazing individual feat. Something even Yzerman and Lidstrom never did.

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We all have our biases. A lot of people here think Fedorov, Dats or Zetterberg were never generational talent but Lidstrom and Yzerman were. Years ago on hockeyfights.com you would see people saying Lidstrom was overrated and didn't start winning his Norris Trophies almost 10 years after his career and after guys like Ray Bourque and Paul Coffey retired and Chelios declined. Basically saying Lidstrom only won Norris trophies when all the good defenseman in the league started retiring. Outrageous argument right? Of course it is, because we all love Lidstrom. But nonetheless people make it an argument.

Edited by kickazz

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I have a feeling you are in the minority here. From my understanding, Kelly never won a Hart trophy which when you think about it, is an amazing individual feat. Something even Yzerman and Lidstrom never did.

To be fair, D men (which he was with the WIngs, but not the Leafs) are much less likely to receive the Hart - especially after the Norris was introduced in 54. He was a runner up one year, though, and won the Norris and 3 Byngs. But you're right - Fed's Hart, 2 Selkes, and Leaster B. probably wins out, though the later 2 weren't around during Kelly's time (so it's comparing a Hart to a norris).

...and Feds is my all-time favourite so I'm not going say he wasn't the better one.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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To be fair, D men (which he was with the WIngs, but not the Leafs) are much less likely to receive the Hart - especially after the Norris was introduced in 54. He was a runner up one year, though, and won the Norris and 3 Byngs. But you're right - Fed's Hart, 2 Selkes, and Leaster B. probably wins out, though the later 2 weren't around during Kelly's time (so it's comparing a Hart to a norris).

...and Feds is my all-time favourite so I'm not going say he wasn't the better one.

Should've made your username SergeiViktorovichFedorov :brow:

Edited by kickazz

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Fedorov won a Hart AND Selke the same year as both the best offensive and defensive player in the nhl...who the f*** does that? Sergei Fedorov that's who! Raise it up!

Let's see Crosby do that, let's see Ovi do that, let's see Kane or McNHL do that!

Not even the great Lidstrom could muster tgat feat!

Edited by LeftWinger

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http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/DET/leaders_career.html

When you're top 5 in nearly ALL offensive catagories on the team, and the few you arent, you're #6, your numbers has to be retired. #91 must be raised, if not, then ilitch is 100000x more of a stubborn Greek than I thought! Shame on him for keeping this from the fans even this long!

Illitch doesn't need to do that favor for Fedorov lol. Fedorov didn't do him any favors by staying. Ultimately Illitch has the upper hand in this made-up debate we're having.

I mean even Steve Yzerman took a really s***ty pay cut just to stay with the Red Wings towards the end of his career. Yzerman was definitely the better Red Wing. And at the end of the day, retiring someone's number doesn't just come down to skills and accomplishments. That's only the FIRST step in having your number retired. The second step and probably the most important step comes down to being a Red Wing- which entails honor, dedication and loyalty to the franchise.

It's upto Illitch if he wants to excuse Fedorov for his screwups for the step 2 that I just labeled in the previous paragraph. So arguing against Illitch isn't really in your favor to promote Fedorov's number retirement. Because when you do that, Illitch's argument would be Fedorov's TWO contract dramas. Which opens another can of worms.

Edited by kickazz

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I will clarify again that I think Fedorov's number needs retirement consideration but I'm just pointing out why blaming Illitch for anything in this matter isn't going to be a good supporting argument.

When I read about the Aurie incident years ago, Illitch straight up came out and said his number isn't retired because he wasn't in the Hall of Fame. So that's where I get my step 1 from.

Step two comes from an article that came out when Lidstrom's number was retired where he said that having your number retired is "all about being a Red Wing".

And like GMR posted earlier - almost all the guys up there basically played only for the Red Wings give or take a few seasons for Lindsay and a bit more for Sawchuck.

Ultimately I hope Illitch sort of brushes the whole contract issue and Feds not being lifelong Red Wing under the rug. And the only reason I say that is because half of Fedorov's Hall of Fame speech was dedicated to the Red Wings.

Edited by kickazz

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Well, with Datsyuk, he'd first need to get into the HOF as that woudl be the minimum criteria if you look at all the others retired by this org. Also, if you look at the rest, they all have the following:

- Hart, Pearson, Art Ross for forwards

- Norris for defense

- Vezina for goalie

The only guy that doesn't fit that criteria is Alex D....but what he has going for him is 22 full years with the team and parts of 2 others, 450+ goals and almost 1,300pts.

Right now, Fedorov is really the only one that would seem to fit in the most. The downside of course is his departure, etc, otherwise, I think he'd be automatic. I can see the argument for Datsyuk, but it would certainly stick out as being different from the rest. He did play his whole career here, so that's a plus.

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Well, with Datsyuk, he'd first need to get into the HOF as that woudl be the minimum criteria if you look at all the others retired by this org. Also, if you look at the rest, they all have the following:

- Hart, Pearson, Art Ross for forwards

- Norris for defense

- Vezina for goalie

The only guy that doesn't fit that criteria is Alex D....but what he has going for him is 22 full years with the team and parts of 2 others, 450+ goals and almost 1,300pts.

Right now, Fedorov is really the only one that would seem to fit in the most. The downside of course is his departure, etc, otherwise, I think he'd be automatic. I can see the argument for Datsyuk, but it would certainly stick out as being different from the rest. He did play his whole career here, so that's a plus.

That may be true with the older guys, but Yzerman never won an Art Ross or a Hart.

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Yzerman won a Pearson, but he would have obviously been there regardless of that.....he's the Alex D example and then some

If your trying to tell me that Yzerman deserves to be up there, I agree 100% without even a hesitation. No dispute here.

My point is that you cant use trophies as a measuring stick for guys who are not up there, when those that are up there dont even necessarily meet the criteria. Put it this way, if Yzerman did not win the Pearson, would he not be up there? Of course he would, his jersey being retired goes beyond that trophy. The same goes for a guy like datsyuk, he may not have won those 3 trophies, but he won how many selke's and for a period was considered the best overall player in the game.

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As was Fedorov. Lest we mention again, a Hart AND Selke in the same year. Which, btw, was a year that featured all of Gretzky, Lemieux and Messier. If he played D for an entire year, no doubt in hell he'd win a Norris. The ONLY reason his number may not get retired is a personal vendetta.

BTW, Gretzky Lemieux and Messier were not ever considered a Hart AND Selke winner, let alone the same year they were winning Hart trophies.

Edited by LeftWinger

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As was Fedorov. Lest we mention again, a Hart AND Selke in the same year. Which, btw, was a year that featured all of Gretzky, Lemieux and Messier. If he played D for an entire year, no doubt in hell he'd win a Norris. The ONLY reason his number may not get retired is a personal vendetta.

BTW, Gretzky Lemieux and Messier were not ever considered a Hart AND Selke winner, let alone the same year they were winning Hart trophies.

Not sure what your point is. Bergeron is also better defensively than Gretzky or Lemieux. When you're scoring 200 points in a season, nobody cares about Selke awards. Not to mention, being a two-way center wasn't as important in the 80's.

What Fedorov did in 1994 was impressive and has only been approached by Datsyuk when he scored 95+ points in back to back seasons while winning the Selke. But that point alone doesn't mean Ilitch should drop what he's doing and put him in the rafters.

Like I and others mentioned, Fedorov leaving the way he did screwed him over. Nobody is arguing about his skills or awards.

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I'm not sure how legit this is but..

Just ask GM Ken Holland. Speaking with THN’s Ken Campbell on Thursday, Holland made it clear he has no desire to move Zetterberg and chances are he remains a Red Wing until he decides he’s done with the game. If that’s not enough, Holland said, “Zetterberg’s jersey is going in the rafters.” Enough said.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/active-nhlers-who-are-a-lock-for-jersey-retirement-as-devils-announce-honor-for-elias1

Edited by kickazz

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16 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Fedorov gets up there eventually.  He was a dominant force for a long period of Red Wings hockey.  The others I dunno 

I think you are right, but getting your jersey retired usually comes with a loyalty to the team. The best example I can think of is Ken Daneyko/NJD, definitely not at the level you would think for going up in the rafters, but he was loyal. Feds walked out in a very ugly fashion. 

I hope he goes up in the first game next year, but I understand the argument against him and lets not forget, we are talking the most loyal organization in sports.

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I think a bit like Legs 2 posts above. The only one possibly eligible is Henrik Zetterberg but that depends on how he ends his career. His book is not quite written yet.

He is clearly a star and has shown supreme will, both to combat a very serious back injury and to will himself to be the best player on the team despite losing his speed after that back incident at the age of 36. That's some good stuff.

It was clear that he could not drive this group to the playoffs but he still gave it his all. If he keeps this up for the duration of his contract and doesn't decline too much I think he has earned the right to hang next to the greatests. Barely.

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If 91 never gets put up there, it's a classic example of personal feelings over undeniable reasoning. There's a good argument that they don't win any of the first 3 Cups without Fedorov. If it never goes up, they may as well give out the #16 again, because that's how stupid it would be to not put 91 up there.

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