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AtlantaHotWings

Fans rank front offices....Wings 21st

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http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2016/07/survey_ranks_red_wings_21st_am.html#incart_river_index

Okay how many times did folks from here vote against Kenny..

Interesting quote from article

"The Red Wings were once the best front office in the NHL running the best team in the NHL," Luszczyszyn wrote. "It's hard not to see that's all in the past though. People still have faith in their ability to find hidden gems at the draft, but not much else.

"The team has done a lot of work to try and keep their playoff streak alive, but it's likely hurting the team long term as they seem content with one round of playoff hockey per year."...and LGW collectively says no s...

Edited by AtlantaHotWings

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Not surprised at all.

If you asked me last year, I would have disagreed with this. But after 3 years of being KO'd from 1st round and this year was the most embarassing of all when we BACKED INTO the playoffs. Yet if there's still no change in the management philosophy then for sure this is concerning. I think rank #21 is a fair assessment. Some of the contracts given this summer have been awful. (I know some of you guys like those said contract players, but leaving emotions out of this I'm looking at it purely through $$ and success expectancy).

Still like the management overall for draft reasons and the hockey culture, but don't count me out from giving criticism when it's deserved. I certainly hope there's a trade to make up for some of these questionable contract extensions that have been given out.

And no I'm not blaming Holland or anything, he's only a part of the equation. It's an entire team of decision makers including Blashill.

Edited by kickazz

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Ive never been able to understand this whole "content to make the playoffs and fold" argument. I don't think anyone is content just making the playoffs. The players have all been vocal about it, it diminishes Holland's reputation, and the Illitches get less income from postseason revenue. Everyone's best interest is going as deep in the playoffs as possible. Holland hasn't had the best success over the past decade at getting our team to take that next step, but treading water while we continue to look for the right fit is a hell of a lot better than drowning, which seems to be what at least a few folks would rather see. I don't know if there's this mindset that missing the playoffs would someone free the shackles from management's arms and allow them to improve the team, like its somehow not possible to improve while still making the playoffs, but trying to make logic of it makes my brain sad.

In any event, I'm surprised the rating is that low. To say that there are only nine teams managed worse than the Wings seems like our fan base is made up of a bunch of prima donnas. Actually on second thought maybe that rating is right where I should expect it.

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Ive never been able to understand this whole "content to make the playoffs and fold" argument. I don't think anyone is content just making the playoffs. The players have all been vocal about it, it diminishes Holland's reputation, and the Illitches get less income from postseason revenue. Everyone's best interest is going as deep in the playoffs as possible. Holland hasn't had the best success over the past decade at getting our team to take that next step, but treading water while we continue to look for the right fit is a hell of a lot better than drowning, which seems to be what at least a few folks would rather see. I don't know if there's this mindset that missing the playoffs would someone free the shackles from management's arms and allow them to improve the team, like its somehow not possible to improve while still making the playoffs, but trying to make logic of it makes my brain sad.

In any event, I'm surprised the rating is that low. To say that there are only nine teams managed worse than the Wings seems like our fan base is made up of a bunch of prima donnas. Actually on second thought maybe that rating is right where I should expect it.

Agreed with the bold but we've been progressively getting worse and locking much of the same roster. Which is why I'm not surprised at the rating. Even the most level headed fans are wondering why certain things are going on. You know it's true too.

I think the team on paper is better next year compared to last but these new and old contracts are starting to become worrisome. The sum of the parts are adding up little by little.

Number 1 in terms of quotes with excuses, however.

We like our team.

Edited by kickazz

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Agreed with the bold but we've been progressively getting worse and locking much of the same roster. Which is why I'm not surprised at the rating. Even the most level headed fans are wondering why certain things are going on. You know it's true too.

We like our team.

I mean I agree. I'm not happy with where they're at and thing more needs to be done to bring in players we lack. But I feel like naming more than nine teams in worse shape than us isn't remotely far fetched. And I also hate the "we're happy to make the first round and call it a year" argument. Especially if it's followed by some form of "Wings just need to miss the playoffs that will fix everything", (which admittedly didn't happen in this thread, but has def been occurring more frequently than it should and I'm generally in a bad mood right now anyway so I'm going to ***** about whatever I want).

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Hahahah. That's true, the "we need to miss the playoffs for some changes" argument is definitely dumb. Failing isn't going to turn into success that easily.

There's no way in hell do I as a fan want to see The Streak broken. I'd much rather keep making the playoffs and get better than not make the playoffs and think magically the 14th pick will be good enough to bring us a Stanley cup lol. And us missing the playoffs isn't going to change free agency. Nor is it going to convince another GM to take on Howards contract. Or Ericssons.

Playoff success is completely irrelevant to contract dumps and pickups or winning the cup. Unless we tanked and got first round pick. But that's the most extreme and stupid way going about things with mostly uncertainty along the way.

Edited by kickazz

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The biggest issue I think is our lack of franchise players. Datsyuk is done. Kronwall and Zetterberg are shells of their former selves and should probably be solid complimentary pieces at his stage in their careers instead of heavy lifters. We have potentially Larkin and potentially Mrazek coming in to fill big roles, but even with their early promise they're both still big "IFs" and it still puts us down one franchise defensman and one franchise forward. Those types don't make it to free agency. They're very rarely traded. And unless you have a top 3 overall pick they're tough to pluck out of the sea of mediocrity that is the draft. Statistically our best bet is unfortunately probably to hope for finding a star in the draft. Who was the last franchise guy to make it to free agency? Praise and Suter? And even when that rare moment happened you're still competing with a handful of other teams for these type of players. Trading a franchise guy has become less common since parity redistributed the odds of success in the league. Why should a bottom-feeder drop their 1st line center for prospects and picks if they're only 4 points out of a playoffs spot in February? How often does that happen these days? Subban was traded. But he was traded for Weber.

I mean if I was GM I'm not sure my main strategy would be much different from Holland's. I wouldn't necessarily be locking up all this bottom-six talent, but I think my main focus for landing a franchise player would continue to be in the draft, and just keep vigilant on those rare moments if and when a big fish becomes available in the league.

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Kind of interesting that both of Hollands 'disciples' - Yzerman and Nill are ranked (well) ahead of him - #1 and #6 respectively.

In fact of the top 10 'ranked' GMs, Only 2 (Nashville and SJ) have been with their team for longer than 6 years.

You often hear about Coaches having a 10 year limit on being effective, as their message can often get stale over time and players tend to tune them out. I think that is also possible with GM's (to a lesser degree), their philosophy can become stale, and often times they rely on 'whats worked before' and don't change with the times.

Its very easy to get tunnel vision as a GM, and this seems to have been the case with Holland...he was a master at finding the right fit of superstars who could actually play together as a team (its not as easy as it looks - see the Yankees), and he had a knack for surrounding himself with a staff full of people extremely good at their jobs (scouting in particular), additionally, he was/is extremely good at retaining his players. Very rarely do you see a player leave the Red Wings (that the wings actually wanted to keep) - he is loyal . This used to be a positive attribute as it showed other players that once you're a Red Wing, they will take care of you, and there was no salary cap so who cares if its a slight over payment - hes 'our guy' now, and the Wings treat their guys better than any other organization.

The salary cap has honestly messed up Holland something fierce. yes he won the cup in 08 but that team was almost completely built prior to the salary cap era. He has tried to adjust - but seems to have overcompensated in some aspects. He used to deal young players and draft picks without a second thought, he now hoards them like they are all the holy grail, and is petrified of trading away a potential 'stud' for an established vet.

One area he hasn't changed at all in is loyalty to his players. He still signs guys to very generous contracts (this off season being a prime example), and makes sure they get playing time/a roster spot, even thought there are more talented/cheaper players in the AHL chomping at the bit to player at this level. This is awesome when you have a team full of studs, as you will most likely keep them around, but when your team is full of average NHLers, you need to be cut throat and fearless when it comes to choosing who to keep and who to let walk away.

I am not saying that Holland cant be successful again, but history is def. against him suddenly changing his ways and making the necessary roster moves that this team needs. I think a change of scenery would be better for everyone involved...

Edited by ToastyWing

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To be honest I think bad press like this is necessary sometimes. At the very least it makes ownership and management aware of what people think.

Holland has 2 years left on his contract as a manager. I wonder what Mike and Chris Illitch will do if the next two years don't get any better and continue the downward trend.

Edited by kickazz

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21st....sounds about right. How the turn tables....turn.

Look, I don't like what Kenny's been doing lately. And there are plenty of people who (with good reason) think that Yzerman in one of if not the best GM in the game right now.

But I am kinda wary of saying things like "If only Steve could have taken over the Wings..."

The situations are quite different to be making a GM-to-GM comparison, as if all the great moves that he made in Tampa (and the moves Nill makes in Dallas for that matter) would have worked out in Detroit. It's a different organization, the teams have different players in different stages of their careers and contracts. They have different assets and different prospects, ect...

I know they are both under a lot of pressure, it comes with the job. But I think it was probably a good thing for Yzerman's GM career and development that he wasn't under the extreme pressure of being the GM of the team to which he was an icon for 2 decades. I don't know that he would have handled things here the same way he handled them in Tampa (just to be clear, he might have done things the same, he might not have. I just don't know, just wanted to say it again), But I'm guessing that being with a different organization would make it a lot easier to manage the team without having to worry about his legacy as a Red Wing.

That being said, I still wish he was working for the Wings. The guy is very intelligent, thorough, adaptable (even back to his playing days), negotiated his last few contracts by himself, doesn't let emotion get in the way of what's best for the team (Drouin, St. Lous), ect..

Is he the best GM in the league? I don't know.

Is he in the top 5 (maybe even top 3)? I'd say yes, absolutely.

And where is Holland? 21st. Right where he belongs.

Edited by roboturner

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I hate to say it, but I think that is a fair assessment, if not pretty generous. How we go from being one of the best to close to the bottom is incredible and sucks. But I love this team and I'm hopeful that both our team and management works their way back up to the top.

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Yeah, obviously you'd like more than a 200 sample size. And who knows how those 200 fans got picked. On top of that, I'm not really sure how many fans would have the workings and up-to-date info on all the departments of all 30 teams to be able to make an informed ranking in all those categories (Beyond the Wings, I don't know how many other teams I could actually comment on, let alone give a score of 1-10 in six different categories for each team).

That being said, I still think these came out being about rightshrug.gif

EDIT:

Just for anyone wondering, the categories (with the Wings' rank) were:

Roster Building..........21st

Cap Management......19th

Draft/Develop..............9th

Trading......................21st

Free Agency..............22nd

Vision.........................21st

(Any mods wanna copy these to the original post, then delete this question from my post??)

Edited by roboturner

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Wait it was wings fans who made the whole list? No wonder Nill and Yzerman are ranked so highly. Not that I think they're bad, but ranked 1st and 6th place overall and 0 cups between the two of them I think speaks volumes about the bias.

Edit: never mind I don't know why I thought that.

Edited by Echolalia

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actually now I'm not sure how they did it.

Here's the link to the original article titled: How much confidence does each NHL fan base have in their front office?

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/how-much-confidence-does-each-nhl-fan-base-have-in-their-front-office-a-ranking-of-all-30-teams/

So the title makes it sound like each team had a few people respond to the survey, and not that 200 people took the survey about every team. But it's usually an editor that makes the title of the article and not the writer.

But if it was only fans of the team that ranked that team, that would equal about a 6and 2/3rds sample size per team. Which is a ridiculously low sample size

From the article:

I created a survey asking people to rank each team’s front office in six different categories based on how confident they would be if that front office was running their team instead. The categories in question are roster building, cap management, drafting and development, trading, free agency, and vision.

The overall ranking was then weighted by how important respondents deemed each skill to be relative to the others. Those surveyed viewed drafting and development as most important, followed by roster building and vision, then cap management, then trading, with free agency seen as the least important.

They were also asked if they were more, less or similarly confident with this team based on their moves over the last year or so.

So it sounds like just 200 random hockey fans...

Edited by roboturner

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Yeah, 200 fans equates to 6-7 fans per team IF they spread out equally the responders over the fanbases. But it doesn't seem that they did that - they just took whoever responded. Could be all Tampa fans. Regardless of what fans they are, they ranked the entire league and I guarantee most fans know very little about how all teams draft, etc.

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