Hall of Fame Worthy

[kickazz 5,459]

I've been through this before on the forum. If they only allow 1,000 point players in, there will be almost no players entering the HOF in 10 or 20 years. There are few players that entered the league in 2002 and beyond that will hit 1,000 points. You can't only let Ovechkin and Crosby in the HOF. The standards will change because there is no choice.

There's about 5 players that are active with more than a 1000 points and another 5 that are close to a 1000. If they change the goalie pad sizes, the scoring could increase overall.

[kickazz 5,459]

It will be interesting to see how the next decade of HOF plays out. The classes are getting weaker imo.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

There's about 5 players that are active with more than a 1000 points and another 5 that are close to a 1000. If they change the goalie pad sizes, the scoring could increase overall.

And most (if not all) of those players came into the league before Datsyuk.

[kickazz 5,459]

And most (if not all) of those players came into the league before Datsyuk.

Splitting hairs. Datsyuk basically would have hit 1000 points if he didn't leave NHL early. You may have misinterpreted my post. I was saying that Dats will likely be an exception to 1000 point consensus.

But I can't say the same for other players. As it stands Vincent Lecavelier has 949 points and scored over a 100 points, over 50 goals in a season, won the Rocket Richard trophy and a Stanley cup. But would you accept him into the HoF? I wouldn't. A good way to weed him out would be the 1000 point mark

Edited July 24, 2016 by kickazz

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Splitting hairs. Datsyuk basically would have hit 1000 points if he didn't leave NHL early. You may have misinterpreted my post. I was saying that Dats will likely be an exception to 1000 point consensus.

But I can't say the same for other players. As it stands Vincent Lecavelier has 949 points and scored over a 100 points, over 50 goals in a season, won the Rocket Richard trophy and a Stanley cup. But would you accept him into the HoF? I wouldn't. A good way to weed him out would be the 1000 point mark

My point was that this is the dead puck era, and I can only see Crosby and Ovechkin hitting 1,000 points (among players who entered the league post 2002).

The HOF can't just let in two or three players from this entire era.

[kickazz 5,459]

My point was that this is the dead puck era, and I can only see Crosby and Ovechkin hitting 1,000 points (among players who entered the league post 2002).

The HOF can't just let in two or three players from this entire era.

Well, you may be right, we'll have to see how Zetteberg, Sedin twins, Getzlaf, Kane, Stamkos and Backstom's contracts play out. As it stands these guys are the closes to PPG in the league. (Obviously not considering Ovie, Malkin and Crosby in the equation).

IMO there's got to be some sort of point cut off for forwards. They can't let in every tom dick and harry with 700 points. Lecavlier would be a prime example. He had a good run from 2004-2007 but fell of significantly. Whereas you have the Sedin twins , Datsyuk and Zetterberg who were consistently top 10 scorers in the league for more almost a decade. I admit Sedin's lack of Stanley cup will probably hinder their chance but I'm just using their consistency and production as an example.

Edited July 24, 2016 by kickazz

[TheXym 2,606]

Don't forget time lost due to lockouts. That would have added to point totals as well.

[kliq 3,755]

Well, you may be right, we'll have to see how Zetteberg, Sedin twins, Getzlaf, Kane, Stamkos and Backstom's contracts play out. As it stands these guys are the closes to PPG in the league. (Obviously not considering Ovie, Malkin and Crosby in the equation).

IMO there's could to be some sort of point cut off for forwards. They can't let in every tom dick and harry with 700 points. Lecavlier would be a prime example. He had a good run from 2004-2007 but fell of significantly. Whereas you have the Sedin twins , Datsyuk and Zetterberg who were consistently top 10 scorers in the league for more almost a decade. I admit Sedin's lack of Stanley cup will probably hinder their chance but I'm just using their consistency and production as an example.

Here is a "point leader" list of active players.

http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-active-players-all-time-points-leaders.html

Edited July 24, 2016 by kliq

[kickazz 5,459]

Don't forget time lost due to lockouts. That would have added to point totals as well.

Agreed, another good reason why Datsyuk will likely get in. He lost a year of his early prime.

Edited July 24, 2016 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

Lol. The selection committee of the Hall of Fame has Scotty Bowman, Luc Robataille and Igor Larionov on it. Datsyuk is for sure getting in guys.

[toby91_ca 620]

Kickazz...Datsyuk and Zetterberg were not top 10 scorers for a decade. Each of them finished top 10 only 2 times in their careers. Datsyuk finishing 4th twice and Z finishing 9th and 8th. That said, I do think Datsyuk has a good chance at the HOF due to Selke's....point totals are low though. Guy Carbaneau (sp?) has the Selke's and decent point totals, but not enough and he hasn't gotten in so far.

[kickazz 5,459]

When I said top scorers, I meant points across the board. Any of the Goals, Assists or Point total categories over the course of a decade.They each finished top 10 in one of those categories quite a few times in their career. Couple times finished top 5. If I'm not mistaken, just last year (2015 season) Zetterberg finished top 10 in assists in the league.

Edited July 25, 2016 by kickazz

[kipwinger 8,522]

D

Kickazz...Datsyuk and Zetterberg were not top 10 scorers for a decade. Each of them finished top 10 only 2 times in their careers. Datsyuk finishing 4th twice and Z finishing 9th and 8th. That said, I do think Datsyuk has a good chance at the HOF due to Selke's....point totals are low though. Guy Carbaneau (sp?) has the Selke's and decent point totals, but not enough and he hasn't gotten in so far.

Datsyuk will get in because he's flashy. And people go ga ga for flashy players.

[kickazz 5,459]

That's an excellent point. I often feel fans overrate Datsyuk because of his flashyness. Datsyuk, while being the most talented player of this generation was certainly not the number one player in the league. I think it was Mickey Redmond who sort of eluded to that point once. He stated that although Red Wings fans may not like to hear it, there's no denying that Sidney Crosby is better, however, Datsyuk just makes you fall off your seat.

But anyways, ignoring that point, Datsyuk's accomplishments are pretty good for modern day era.

Edited July 25, 2016 by kickazz

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Kickazz...Datsyuk and Zetterberg were not top 10 scorers for a decade. Each of them finished top 10 only 2 times in their careers. Datsyuk finishing 4th twice and Z finishing 9th and 8th. That said, I do think Datsyuk has a good chance at the HOF due to Selke's....point totals are low though. Guy Carbaneau (sp?) has the Selke's and decent point totals, but not enough and he hasn't gotten in so far.

Carbonneau played in a higher scoring era and never scored 60 points in his career. He scored around .50 PPG for his career. He was great defensively, but he's not comparable to Datsyuk.

Edited July 25, 2016 by GMRwings1983

[toby91_ca 620]

I used Carbonneau as an example of a guy that had the Selke's but didn't score enough, I suggested Datsyuk likely did score enough...while his scoring is low on its own, combined with Selke's will likely be enough.

I don't get the suggestions that he wasn't as good as Crosby that I've seen a lot of here. I don't disagree, but why does that matter? Do you need to be better than Crosby to get into the HOF? Crosby will likely be seen as the best player to have started his career within the last 20 years....so he'll be in his first year of eligibility....so will a few others that weren't considered as good as him and there will be more that still get in as well, but take more time.

[kickazz 5,459]

You've got to go back and read the thread from page one then. No one said he shouldn't get in because Crosby is better. Someone claimed that Datsyuk was the best, and that's why he should get into HoF. Datsyuk wasn't #1 but will still get into HoF and so will a lot of people not named Crosby.

Edited July 25, 2016 by kickazz

[toby91_ca 620]

No, I understand that...I guess I was just wondering why we're even discussing the fact that Crosby is better, doesn't have any bearing on whether Datsyuk is worthy for the HOF or not.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I used Carbonneau as an example of a guy that had the Selke's but didn't score enough, I suggested Datsyuk likely did score enough...while his scoring is low on its own, combined with Selke's will likely be enough.

I don't get the suggestions that he wasn't as good as Crosby that I've seen a lot of here. I don't disagree, but why does that matter? Do you need to be better than Crosby to get into the HOF? Crosby will likely be seen as the best player to have started his career within the last 20 years....so he'll be in his first year of eligibility....so will a few others that weren't considered as good as him and there will be more that still get in as well, but take more time.

But does Datsyuk have low scoring when you compare it to the era? If so, it certainly wouldn't be as low as Carbonneau's scoring was relative to his peers who were all putting up absurd numbers.

[toby91_ca 620]

Agree, Datsyuk's scoring is much greater than Guy's, but to answer your question as to whether Datsyuk's scoring is low relative to the era.....it depends on context. Overall, no, it's not low, he has scored a lot points considering the era in which he played....however, when thinking HOF type scoring level, he isn't in that category. We're getting into some of my personal preferences here I think, but if someone hasn't been consistently in the top 10 point scorers over their career, they are not worthy of HOF IMO (if you are looking at scoring alone). HOF should be for the elite, otherwise, it's not as prestigious.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Agree, Datsyuk's scoring is much greater than Guy's, but to answer your question as to whether Datsyuk's scoring is low relative to the era.....it depends on context. Overall, no, it's not low, he has scored a lot points considering the era in which he played....however, when thinking HOF type scoring level, he isn't in that category. We're getting into some of my personal preferences here I think, but if someone hasn't been consistently in the top 10 point scorers over their career, they are not worthy of HOF IMO (if you are looking at scoring alone). HOF should be for the elite, otherwise, it's not as prestigious.

So how many players post 2002 (Datsyuk's first season) would fit that category? I can only think of a handful. I agree HOF should be for the elite, but Datsyuk was an elite player for many years. The only centers in his era that I would rank above him for sure would be Crosby and Thornton. They're not as good defensively, but their point totals and offensive consistency is far better than Datsyuk's.

Edited July 25, 2016 by GMRwings1983

[kickazz 5,459]

So how many players post 2002 (Datsyuk's first season) would fit that category? I can only think of a handful. I agree HOF should be for the elite, but Datsyuk was an elite player for many years. The only centers in his era that I would rank above him for sure would be Crosby and Thornton. They're not as good defensively, but their point totals and offensive consistency is far better than Datsyuk's.

Jerome Iginla, Marcus Nasland, Kovulchuk, Alfredsson, Thornton to name a few. They were all top 10 point scorers year in and year out and played in the post 2002 era as well. HoF isn't exclusive to what type of forward position. Centers and Wingers are all treated equally.

This is only looking at top 10 point totals a season and not looking at assists or goals individually of course. But if that's the category then Datsyuk only finished top 10 in total points 2 times in his 14 seasons. Whereas Iginla, Kovulchuk, Alfredsson and Thornton finished top 10 more often.

Savard, Hossa, St. Louis too.

There's probably about 10 or so players who finished top 10 more often than Datsyuk did. Datsyuk finished top 10 two times in his career and defensive players comparable who also finish top 10 two times would be Hossa and Zetterberg. So IMO, if Datsyuk gets into HoF then so should Hossa and Zetterberg. At this point you would be expanding the pool obviosuly because that brings in other players like Daniel Sedin, Henrik Sedin, Brad Richards etc.

Edited July 25, 2016 by kickazz

[MrazekFanBoy 223]

Who was drafted after 2002 not who played after 2002..

Atleast that would make more sense if that's what he Meant

[kickazz 5,459]

Who was drafted after 2002 not who played after 2002..

Atleast that would make more sense if that's what he Meant

?? What does that mean? Why would draft year matter when looking at points scored per year. Datsyuk was drafted in 1998 and started playing in 2001 where scoring started decreasing.

Edited July 25, 2016 by kickazz

[toby91_ca 620]

Good question in terms of who would meet my criteria after having a quick look....not many. Maybe I've got too much bias with scoring from a slightly earlier era as it's really only Crosby, Ovechkin and maybe Malkin that stick out currently. Maybe Kane will get there if he keeps it up.

So, perhaps Datsyuk's offensive numbers are better than I originally thought....I think he's probably been more consistent than many perhaps, which is why he's accumulated better overall totals than some who have had better numbers for shorter periods of time.

So, I think there is a bit of an issue here because there are probably way too many that would fit in if I lowered my offsensive stat criteria too much, I think Datsyuk is probably within too large of a bucket there for everyone to get in.

I think I've convinced myself that Datsyuk should get in no problem once you consider Selkes, but let's see if the voters reach the same conclusions at some point in the next several years....he'll need to retire first.