Dan Cleary Gets Training Camp Tryout

[DickieDunn 2,571]

The only way Vanek gets traded is if he asks for one or the Wings are so far out not even the biggest homer out there thinks they have a shot at the playoffs. If they're within shouting distance they'll be buyers not sellers. Of course with that defense they might be that far out. With Kronwall still having knee issues, they have 3 2nd pair guys and a bunch of third pairing ones and no cap room to make a deal.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

The only way Vanek gets traded is if he asks for one or the Wings are so far out not even the biggest homer out there thinks they have a shot at the playoffs. If they're within shouting distance they'll be buyers not sellers. Of course with that defense they might be that far out. With Kronwall still having knee issues, they have 3 2nd pair guys and a bunch of third pairing ones and no cap room to make a deal.

Which will hopefully unleash the wrath of Mr. I at the end of the season

[chaps80 1,591]

I have no idea why a PTO would make a person so mad. As many posters wrote above, it allows him to be part of the early training camp process which hurts absolutely nobody.

Because just when you think we've seen the last of Cleary in a player role of ANY kind, this pops up. Guy won't go away, and Holland is enabling him, and it makes me think there's a small chance he might get the great idea to sign him to contract again. Other GMs would have cut ties years ago.How many other teams keep old vets who can't play in the NHL anymore around this long in a player role? Give him something to do off the ice if you want him around so badly. Apparently the league has softened the minimum veteran player requirement due to the amount of players playing in the World Cup anyways, so him being around for preseason games isn't needed.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Which will hopefully unleash the wrath of Mr. I at the end of the season

I'm curious what you think the "wrath of Mr. I at the end of the season" includes...

[kliq 3,755]

I'm curious what you think the "wrath of Mr. I at the end of the season" includes...

This is a false narrative that has been created which depicts Holland as the antagonist who is single handedly ruining this team with all his horrible players and the "Swedish Mafia". Also in this false narrative, "Mr.I" who is the protagonist is sitting back just waiting to make his move and save the day because he is the best owner in sports and has nothing to do with anything Red Wing related during this treacherous time.

The reality, Ken Holland/Wings Management AND the Illitch family have plan in place to do a re-build on the fly while still staying competitive/keeping the streak alive.

I know some like to say that this not a re-build, but they are wrong. I fully admit, it is not a tank job where any player over the age of 25 is being moved in order to land a top 5 pick multiple years in a row while praying that they turn into elite cornerstone players, but it is still a re-build. Anyone who looks at this logically and keeps emotion out of it can see that. The amount of turnover we have had over the last 5 years is more then I can remember in my entire lifetime in that short of a period.

The Wings are in an odd position, we are in a time of parity where teams can go from non playoff teams to contenders, or Stanley Cup champs to non playoff teams in one season, they have a team that is good but not great, they have the streak, they are not contenders, they have really good young kids, but they also have declining vets. They cant use the words "re-build" in the media as that implies giving up, but they also cant say they are going for it, as that just makes them look dumb. Again, a very odd situation. Luckily we have some building blocks in place (Larkin, Mrazek, DD, AA, Mantha etc.) that will either pay off within the next couple years, or prove to be a failure. We are definitely missing that 1A d-man, but if we can land that, I dont think we are too far off with Larkin/Nielsen/Helm/Glendening down the middle, and all that talent on the Wing.

Also, anything that thinks the Ilitch family doesn't care about the streak and that it's all Ken Holland, please try to consider using logic.

Edited September 20, 2016 by kliq

[frankgrimes 1,836]

I'm curious what you think the "wrath of Mr. I at the end of the season" includes...

Simple put cleaning house.

Since this is the Dan Cleary PTO thread I'm not going to reply to that god damn rebuild discussion I will only say this to this f****** discussion:

straight out of the mouth from Ken Holland at 13:30

"...we're NOT reloading and we're NOT rebuilding..."

Back to the topic Dan Cleary completing a successful tryout or not doesn't change a f****** damn thing at best it adds some much needed veteran presence to the junior Wings in GR.

Edited September 20, 2016 by frankgrimes

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Either Holland is on board with the culture of mediocrity or he's allowing ownership to interfere. If it's the first he should be fired, if it's the second he should have the balls to tell them let me do my job or fire me. Then he has his choice of jobs on teams that want to win.

[Buppy 1,720]

Either Holland is on board with the culture of mediocrity or he's allowing ownership to interfere. If it's the first he should be fired, if it's the second he should have the balls to tell them let me do my job or fire me. Then he has his choice of jobs on teams that want to win.

There is no "culture of mediocrity". Teams have down times. Deal with it.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Dano would probably struggle to keep up with the pace in the St. John's senior league back home, but god bless him for wanting to continue his career. I don't want him to take up a spot in the AHL, but since Jeff Hoggan has moved on it wouldn't be the WORST thing ever.

[kliq 3,755]

Simple put cleaning house.

Since this is the Dan Cleary PTO thread I'm not going to reply to that god damn rebuild discussion I will only say this to this f****** discussion:

straight out of the mouth from Ken Holland at 13:30

Once again Frank, you say you are not going to comment on something, only to comment on it immediately.

I addressed Holland's comments in my post, I don't feel like going in circles with you for the one hundredth time. You have made it pretty clear that you want the Wings to tank because in your opinion that is the only way to build a franchise.

Newsflash though, "Mr.I" and family are the one's with the ultimate say, you can vilify Holland all you want.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

There is no "culture of mediocrity". Teams have down times. Deal with it.

When just making the playoffs is the #1 goal and middle of the road vets get 4+ year deals while talented prospects get stuck in roles that don't suit theirskills or in the minors, that's a culture of mediocrity. Edited September 20, 2016 by DickieDunn

[kliq 3,755]

When just making the playoffs is the #1 goal and middle of the road vets get 4+ year deals while talented prospects get stuck in roles that don't suit theirskills or in the minors, that's a culture of mediocrity.

There is no way the Wings brass and ownership don't care about winning a cup. Everyone here and in management/ownership want the same thing.

Every team in the history of sports has a decline at some point, clearly Wings fans are having a very hard time with this emotionally and cannot not take this team not being contenders. We were legit contenders for about 20 years, and have been mediocre for about 4-5 years. If things turn around and we become contenders again soon with this group of young players using the "overripe philosophy", this will be looked at as typical bump in the road that every team has to deal with. If the Wings are floating around the 8th seed for the next 5-6 years (like the Leafs 2006-2015), then yes its a problem. Despite what all the arm chair GM's think right now, only time will tell if Hollands rebuild on the fly plan will work.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Simple put cleaning house.

Since this is the Dan Cleary PTO thread I'm not going to reply to that god damn rebuild discussion I will only say this to this f****** discussion:

straight out of the mouth from Ken Holland at 13:30

Back to the topic Dan Cleary completing a successful tryout or not doesn't change a f****** damn thing at best it adds some much needed veteran presence to the junior Wings in GR.

Yet you did respond to that god damn rebuild discussion.

In this clip, Holland bumbles over his words so I can see why you heard that, but just before the part you quoted he says "I got conservative at the deadline, I'm trying to compete and we're trying to - is the word rebuild - I don't want to use the word reload because we're sitting here and you guys don't think we're very good..."

I would say, yes, Mr. Holland, that is the word, but it's easy to see why he's reticent to use the word. The jumble of terminology is the same problem we keep talking about here - as soon as you say rebuild, people think tank. But he is talking about keeping picks,, giving young players like Mantha and Nosek a shot, transitioning to young players and hoping some young players and picks turn us into the team that does more than just make the playoff and competes for a cup - that is the rebuild on the fly idea.

[joesuffP 1,746]

Clearly signs a deal with the Griffins!

[krsmith17 7,191]

For those that like to s*** on Cleary and / or Holland for keeping him around for so long, maybe you should read / listen to some of the interviews by Holland, Martin, or Cleary himself over the past week or so. It's very clear that he's doing a great job with the kids in Grand Rapids, in particular, Bertuzzi. I think Cleary may be a big factor in Bert's success thus far. Like him or not, Cleary is a stand up guy, with an unbelievable work ethic, and if that rubs off on any of the prospects, even a little bit, he's well worth yet another contract. The kids love and respect the guy, and rightfully so. Keep up the good work in GR Cleary, even if most of what you do down there is off the ice...

[Jacksoni 418]

I think he should be on the staff instead of on the squad. The time is right, he can still play decently but the decline rate will be steepening now. Just about the right time to go in as a "player <some made up> operations manager".

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Yet you did respond to that god damn rebuild discussion.

In this clip, Holland bumbles over his words so I can see why you heard that, but just before the part you quoted he says "I got conservative at the deadline, I'm trying to compete and we're trying to - is the word rebuild - I don't want to use the word reload because we're sitting here and you guys don't think we're very good..."

I would say, yes, Mr. Holland, that is the word, but it's easy to see why he's reticent to use the word. The jumble of terminology is the same problem we keep talking about here - as soon as you say rebuild, people think tank. But he is talking about keeping picks,, giving young players like Mantha and Nosek a shot, transitioning to young players and hoping some young players and picks turn us into the team that does more than just make the playoff and competes for a cup - that is the rebuild on the fly idea.

Well the presser was almost an hour long and sometimes a lecture in hockey-history while stumbling over his words so not that easy to follow. The problem is, whatever his definition of rebuild, retool or whatever he wants to do is simple: doing the same thing over and over again and hoping that some players may turn out way better than expected while others are getting more guaranteed top players, who - to quote Holland - are able to put a franchise on their backs is a gamble. All he has to do is look around the league and see the excitment Edmonton, Buffalo, Toronto and Florida and the Isles have with players like McJesus, Eichel, Matthews, Ekblad (whose a Michigan boy) and of course Tavares then you have Winnipeg with Scheifele and Laine. Hoping to find players of that caliber in the later rounds is like searching for a needle in a haycock.

Rebuild to me means handing over the keys to the young guns, let them learn from their mistakes and while doing so get better draft-picks in order to "speed up" the rebuild and get that player that can put a team on his back for many years to come. Of course it's unlikely to find another McJesus (that guy is flying over the ice and has magic hands) but according to Button there will be some very solid (potential) number 1 centers and defenders in the upcoming draft.

Anyhow if the GR players think Clearly can help them with his work ethic and experience it would be stupid not to sign him, if a GR player can't take his spot away the guy would never amount to anything in the AHL so there is no harm in having a veteran (stanley cup winner), showing young kids how it's done. I'm also sure Clearly will work in some function for the Wings when the time is right I could see him as a strength or conditioning coach.

[kliq 3,755]

Well the presser was almost an hour long and sometimes a lecture in hockey-history while stumbling over his words so not that easy to follow. The problem is, whatever his definition of rebuild, retool or whatever he wants to do is simple: doing the same thing over and over again and hoping that some players may turn out way better than expected while others are getting more guaranteed top players, who - to quote Holland - are able to put a franchise on their backs is a gamble. All he has to do is look around the league and see the excitment Edmonton, Buffalo, Toronto and Florida and the Isles have with players like McJesus, Eichel, Matthews, Ekblad (whose a Michigan boy) and of course Tavares then you have Winnipeg with Scheifele and Laine. Hoping to find players of that caliber in the later rounds is like searching for a needle in a haycock.

Rebuild to me means handing over the keys to the young guns, let them learn from their mistakes and while doing so get better draft-picks in order to "speed up" the rebuild and get that player that can put a team on his back for many years to come. Of course it's unlikely to find another McJesus (that guy is flying over the ice and has magic hands) but according to Button there will be some very solid (potential) number 1 centers and defenders in the upcoming draft.

So I guess we are debating the re-build lol.

Doing the same things over and over again when you have had great success, is hard to argue against. The last time Holland did a re-build on the fly was when he had to transition from Yzerman, Shanny, Hull, Luc, Hasek, Fedorov, Larionov and others, and Holland did it successfully and won a Stanley Cup, almost 2.

This time, he is doing the same thing, but in a completely different system (ie. cap) which means you cannot do it as fast and it must be more youth based due to the cap.

Here is our top 20 that played most nights (12 Forwards, 6 D, 2 Goalies) in 2012, I will bold anyone who is no longer in our projected top 18 for 2016/17:

Cleary, Datsyuk, Franzen, Filppula, Zetterberg, Hudler, Miller, Abby, Bertuzzi, Helm, Emmerton, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, White, Kronwall, Stuart, Quincey, E, Howard, Conklin

Assuming E and Miller get a starting spot (which is not a given), we have gotten rid of 13 guys. HUGE amount of turnover in just 4 years.

On our roster now we have Larkin, Mrazek, AA, Mantha?, Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, DD, Marchenko, with Jurco, Pulk, XO, and Sproul trying to break into the lineup and alot of top prospects in the minors led by Svechnikov and Mantha? in the waiting.

Without a question, Holland is re-building. Now, whether or not it is successful remains to be seen.

When the mandate from ownership is to keep your streak alive (dont kid yourself, Mr. I cares about this streak, it's his legacy), but you also have to re-build, that isn't the easiest task out there. I will say though, it can be a very efficient way of going about it as creating a culture of losing can be an awful thing (ask any Lions fan about this).

You talk about Edmonton, Buffalo, Toronto, Winnipeg, Florida and the Isles, but how much success has actually been obtained by any of these teams with their tank jobs? Who cares about message board/media hype, what matters is results on the ice. Edmonton has been a joke of a franchise since 2006, how many #1 overall picks and top #5 picks have they had and they still have not gotten into the playoffs. McDavid does appear to be on a different level, but if anyone could screw him up, it would be them. Buffalo has done nothing and have not made the playoffs in years, I think you over-hype Eichel a bit and put wayyyy to much pressure on the kid. Florida got in last year at a high seed, but were bounced early and until they can show consistency, I have a hard time seeing their transition as a success. Toronto and Winnipeg have done nothing, and while the Isles have been consistent in the regular season that past few years, have won 1 playoff series since 1993! I cant see how the Isles can be looked at in a higher light then Wings right now. The only thing the Isles have done that the Wings have not, is they got a #1 pick who they may lose in a year or two.

Now dont misinterpret me, I am not saying all of these teams are failing or are going to fail, what I am saying is that the teams you listed have not accomplished anymore then the Wings with their re-build. I know you only think a player can be great if he was taken top 5, but there is no reason not to think that Larkin will not be our #1 centre as like I have showed before, statistically speaking he is at the same level as Eichel.

Either way, we are going in circles. You want the Wings to get a top 5 pick and to bottom out, I do not. The only way to see if this re-build is working is to give it time. I hope you can see this.

On a side note, Cleary was mentioned in my post

Edited September 24, 2016 by kliq

[joesuffP 1,746]

Fans can't see the direction the team is heading. Their frustration doesn't allow them to perceive things objectively. The rebuild is happening right in front of us. As of now I think we have two great pieces in Larkin and Mrazek- potential core players of the future.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

There is no way the Wings brass and ownership don't care about winning a cup. Everyone here and in management/ownership want the same thing.

Every team in the history of sports has a decline at some point, clearly Wings fans are having a very hard time with this emotionally and cannot not take this team not being contenders. We were legit contenders for about 20 years, and have been mediocre for about 4-5 years. If things turn around and we become contenders again soon with this group of young players using the "overripe philosophy", this will be looked at as typical bump in the road that every team has to deal with. If the Wings are floating around the 8th seed for the next 5-6 years (like the Leafs 2006-2015), then yes its a problem. Despite what all the arm chair GM's think right now, only time will tell if Hollands rebuild on the fly plan will work.

The long term deals he's given to Helm, Abdelkader, Glendening and Nielsen, along with blocking the spots that should be open for Mantha and AA, pretty much guarantees that the best the Wings will do for the next 3 or 4 years is hover around the 7-8 seed.

Fans can't see the direction the team is heading. Their frustration doesn't allow them to perceive things objectively. The rebuild is happening right in front of us. As of now I think we have two great pieces in Larkin and Mrazek- potential core players of the future.

Rebuilding teams don't usually sign middling vets to 4+ year contracts that pay too much money.

[LeftWinger 4,959]

jobs

anyone else get a link when they the word jobs appears?

Thats weird.

Edited September 24, 2016 by LeftWinger

[Jacksoni 418]

Fans can't see the direction the team is heading. Their frustration doesn't allow them to perceive things objectively. The rebuild is happening right in front of us. As of now I think we have two great pieces in Larkin and Mrazek- potential core players of the future.

And AA. He is for real. You will see, in time if he stays here. I am guessing he alone could garner us something like Fowler.

[kliq 3,755]

The long term deals he's given to Helm, Abdelkader, Glendening and Nielsen, along with blocking the spots that should be open for Mantha and AA, pretty much guarantees that the best the Wings will do for the next 3 or 4 years is hover around the 7-8 seed.

Rebuilding teams don't usually sign middling vets to 4+ year contracts that pay too much money.

They actually do, most teams have about 2 to 4 guys that have contracts like that.

We signed Helm, Abby, Glendenning and Nielson.

Edmonton has signed Lucic, Sekera, and Pouliot. (i know some will say Lucic is not a middling vet, wait a year or so).

Buffalo has signed Okposo and Moulson. (I know some will say Okposo scored 22, not far off from Abby's 19)

Winnipeg signed Perreault and traded for Myers.

I think I made my point. I have said this before, I will say it again. We have 2 bad contracts right now which are E and Howard. Take them away, and we are doing just fine.

[kickazz 5,459]

They actually do, most teams have about 2 to 4 guys that have contracts like that.

We signed Helm, Abby, Glendenning and Nielson.

Edmonton has signed Lucic, Sekera, and Pouliot. (i know some will say Lucic is not a middling vet, wait a year or so).

Buffalo has signed Okposo and Moulson. (I know some will say Okposo scored 22, not far off from Abby's 19)

Winnipeg signed Perreault and traded for Myers.

I think I made my point. I have said this before, I will say it again. We have 2 bad contracts right now which are E and Howard. Take them away, and we are doing just fine.

Only in hindsight really.

[kliq 3,755]

Only in hindsight really.

You're not wrong.