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Blashill tinkering with lines after Tampa loss

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Just now, DickieDunn said:

So Lapointe had a better track record for scoring 40+ points than Abdelkader, and that means Abdelkader has a better chance of maintaining that pace than Lapointe did?

I was counting his 27 goal season and the following year for his 2 year totals, since the Abdelkader argument was a two year period.  

I was just fact checking. Lapointe had more 40+ seasons (3) than Abby currently does. Abby has more seasons (2) around 20 goals or more 3 seasons if you count the lockout shortened season.  

I doesn't make sense, to me, to say had those 2 seasons and then "never came close to 20 goals or 40 points again." when in fact his outlier seasons were 3 in row rather just the 2. That's just cherry-picking the end of the run to make it seem like more of an aberration. For what it's worth, Lapointe only played 59 games in the season after these 3, so I'm sure there's an injury in there that explains some of the drop off.

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Obviously you can't please everyone, but I have no idea what kind of team fans want to see the Wings ice. It feels as if, regardless of what's thrown out there, we'll find something to complain about. I'm genuinely curious what people are looking for (within reason) using the current group of forwards in the Wings' system. Something along the lines of...?

Tatar-Nielsen-Nyquist
Zetterberg-Larkin-Abdelkader
Mantha-Athanasiou-Vanek
Sheahan-Helm-Glendening
Jurco, Miller

Waived: Ott

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Pretty much the lines Khaaaaaan tweeted but switch Abby and Sheahan. Give that a try....

 

I don't think Abby is the best top 6 winger in the league by any means but I'm confused why blash thinks Sheahan belongs up there? Maybe he's seeing something in practice I'm not seeing in the games. 

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7 hours ago, Wheelchairsuperhero said:

Why is Abdelkader on the fourth? I think he's shown to be a capable top sixer.  I would put Sheahan on the fourth, I don't think he belongs in the top six yet and he would make the fourth line much better. Also at this point I'd keep Ott in over Miller. Miller to me looked the most out of place on the ice.

Ericsson doesn't look like an NHL defenseman to me right now. His slow skating really showed last game with how often he was beat on the outside. 

Errorsson never looks like an NHL defenseman. Lazy and he sucks. At least if he played like a 6'4 225lb'er and threw his weight around, blocked shots, leveled some guys, and fought now and then, then it wouldn't be so bad. He plays like he's Nyquist size. Why he hasn't been banished to the AHL then finally bought out like Wade Redden was by NYR year ago is baffling. I know the D is at it's worst point in decades, and pickings are slim, but theres better guys on the bench and in GR that could replace that pylon.

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Ott will not be waived. We're trying to make this team a destination that UFA'S consider one they'd like to play with. How would it look to other, larger impact UFA'S if they sign here, suffer one loss, then get waived?

Sure, decisions will have to be made when Jurco is activated, but I'm hoping by then we have shed ourselves of a couple of players for that D upgrade we are in need of. But, with AA having to not pass thru waivers, when Jurco comes back, AA will return to GR. 

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Guys like Abdelkader, McCarty, and Lapointe are/were grinders that can compliment two skilled players, doing the dirty work so the skill guys can do their thing.  That doesn't make them top 6 players, any more than Ian White was a top pair defenseman the year he played with Lidstrom, or Fedorov a second line center and Kronwall "just" a second pair D in his prime years behind Yzerman and Lidstrom, respectively.  

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1 hour ago, Jesusberg said:

Obviously you can't please everyone, but I have no idea what kind of team fans want to see the Wings ice. It feels as if, regardless of what's thrown out there, we'll find something to complain about. I'm genuinely curious what people are looking for (within reason) using the current group of forwards in the Wings' system. Something along the lines of...?

Tatar-Nielsen-Nyquist
Zetterberg-Larkin-Abdelkader
Mantha-Athanasiou-Vanek
Sheahan-Helm-Glendening
Jurco, Miller

Waived: Ott

Rather see Miller waived than Ott. Almost time to move Jurco on out as well. Waive one of them and bring up Mantha. The guy needs to play in the NHL. Funny how he was the prospect the Wings were highest on until Larkin, but he's never up with the big club for long. Always goes back to GR. It's ridiculous.

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22 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Ott will not be waived. We're trying to make this team a destination that UFA'S consider one they'd like to play with. How would it look to other, larger impact UFA'S if they sign here, suffer one loss, then get waived?

Sure, decisions will have to be made when Jurco is activated, but I'm hoping by then we have shed ourselves of a couple of players for that D upgrade we are in need of. But, with AA having to not pass thru waivers, when Jurco comes back, AA will return to GR. 

I agree Ott shouldn't be waived. Not only would it look bad on the Wings part, but i'm sure they want to see what he can do here, and i'm sure some fans do as well. Way too soon.

Jurco on the other hand needs to be let go soon. He's been a fringe player for awhile. He's got skill, but maybe Detroit isn't where he can use it. AA should not be sent down for him or sent down at all.

Edited by chaps80
forgot something

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Sheahan is a capable player, but don't tell Holland that or he'll end up with a 7 year $45 million deal.

Jurco could be decent if he could stay healthy (bad backs are bad news) and was allowed to play a scoring role, but Square Peg Round Hole Trashill thinks he should be a checker. 

Ott, Miller, and Glendening are pluggers.  Fine in the right role, but Trashill insists on overusing them and acts like they're the new Grind Line or Crash Line or something and puts them in a shut down role where they fail miserably.  Given their role, none of them should be playing because none of them can handle it.

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2 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Guys like Abdelkader, McCarty, and Lapointe are/were grinders that can compliment two skilled players, doing the dirty work so the skill guys can do their thing.  That doesn't make them top 6 players, any more than Ian White was a top pair defenseman the year he played with Lidstrom, or Fedorov a second line center and Kronwall "just" a second pair D in his prime years behind Yzerman and Lidstrom, respectively.  

I think you're confusing "top-6" and "star". I suppose you could argue that anyone could produce like he has if given the same opportunity. Kind of hard to argue against a pure hypothetical. But does it really even matter? So what if he can only produce like that because of his linemates when playing him in the top 6 means he'll have those linemates. It's not like every team (or any really) is getting significantly better production from their 6th forward. 

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So let's get this straight Dickie, Abby only scores 40+ points because he gets to play top 6 but then when it comes to Jurco (who has been a bust so far in the NHL, realistically speaking) you're talking about how he would play "decent" if given a scoring role. Even though when Jurco was given scoring role at different times, he didn't do anything with it. 

So because you like Jurco, it's okay to give him more opportunity , but because you don't like Abby, let's use that fact against him? 

Edited by kickazz

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Jurčo should be waived/moved, it´s told that he has issues with preparing himself and training approach.

6 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Ott will not be waived. We're trying to make this team a destination that UFA'S consider one they'd like to play with

We should not take care about UFAs for which Ott is a match.

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4 hours ago, kickazz said:

So let's get this straight Dickie, Abby only scores 40+ points because he gets to play top 6 but then when it comes to Jurco (who has been a bust so far in the NHL, realistically speaking) you're talking about how he would play "decent" if given a scoring role. Even though when Jurco was given scoring role at different times, he didn't do anything with it. 

So because you like Jurco, it's okay to give him more opportunity , but because you don't like Abby, let's use that fact against him? 


Most decent NHL players could score 40 points playing top line minutes, even with an aging Datsyuk and Zetterberg.  That's what the definition of decent is.  Good NHL wingers given that much time with good line mates produce more than that. 15-20 goals in the NHL is nothing special, please stop acting like Abdelkader is some kind of high end player because of it.  He's not.  He's an average player who uses his size to make up for what he lacks in skill.  This isn't hating on him, it's what he is.  I had no problem with him playing with Datsyuk as long as he did produce 20 goals.  My problem is Holland paying him like he's capable of doing that without riding shot gun for high end players.  Every team who has signed a guy like that to that kind of deal has regretted it, especially when the player is approaching 30 years old.

Jurco could be decent like Abdelkader is decent.  When was he ever really given a chance to play on an offensive line though, other than some games with Datsyuk his first half season in Detroit where he had 15 points in 36 games, not bad for a rookie playing 13:27 a night.  The next year he played less, more often on the 4th line in a role he's not suited for.  Last year he played even less almost exclusively with Glendening.  He has decent speed when his back isn't screwed up, has shown a good scoring tough in juniors and his second year in GR. He's not a grinder though, which is how he's been used exclusively when he's played.  Hell, even when he's had a decent game and Blashcock complimented him, he was a scratch the very next game.  How is he supposed to have any kind of success that way?  That's like hiring doctor to be an electrician and wondering why your lights don't work.

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8 hours ago, Buppy said:

I think you're confusing "top-6" and "star". I suppose you could argue that anyone could produce like he has if given the same opportunity. Kind of hard to argue against a pure hypothetical. But does it really even matter? So what if he can only produce like that because of his linemates when playing him in the top 6 means he'll have those linemates. It's not like every team (or any really) is getting significantly better production from their 6th forward. 

His contract makes it matter.  When Lapointe, coming off his second 40 point season when he scored 27 goals, wanted to get paid and Boston offered him a big contract, Holland let him walk.  Abdelkader had one season where he produced and Holland handed him a big contract early on in the process.  There are cheaper ways to get that production, even if it means losing a couple goals.  Wouldn't it be nice to have a few million in cap space to be able to go get Fowler or Trouba?  But they can't, because Uncle Kenny felt he had to take care of his kids and overpay average players and now they don't ahve any cap room.  But hey, at least Kenny has a built in excuse for not making a trade now, it has to be dollars in and dollars out, and the Ducks and Jets don't want to add salary.

A smart GM would have had the team right at the cap before Franzen and Vitale went on LTIR, instead of at the cap after their money came off.  That would have left them with some decent coin to play with.  Now they have nothing.

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19 hours ago, Wheelchairsuperhero said:

Why is Abdelkader on the fourth? I think he's shown to be a capable top sixer.  I would put Sheahan on the fourth, I don't think he belongs in the top six yet and he would make the fourth line much better. Also at this point I'd keep Ott in over Miller. Miller to me looked the most out of place on the ice.

Ericsson doesn't look like an NHL defenseman to me right now. His slow skating really showed last game with how often he was beat on the outside. 

Agreed. I'd definitely throw Sproul in right now especially if Kronwall is coming back soon.

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2 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

His contract makes it matter.  When Lapointe, coming off his second 40 point season when he scored 27 goals, wanted to get paid and Boston offered him a big contract, Holland let him walk.  Abdelkader had one season where he produced and Holland handed him a big contract early on in the process.  There are cheaper ways to get that production, even if it means losing a couple goals.  Wouldn't it be nice to have a few million in cap space to be able to go get Fowler or Trouba?  But they can't, because Uncle Kenny felt he had to take care of his kids and overpay average players and now they don't ahve any cap room.  But hey, at least Kenny has a built in excuse for not making a trade now, it has to be dollars in and dollars out, and the Ducks and Jets don't want to add salary.

A smart GM would have had the team right at the cap before Franzen and Vitale went on LTIR, instead of at the cap after their money came off.  That would have left them with some decent coin to play with.  Now they have nothing.

Sure, there are "cheaper" ways to get everything, and I'm sure if Holland had gone that route you'd be bitching about him being cheap.

If we could acquire Fowler or Trouba for a price we thought was fair, I'm sure it would have happened already. It wouldn't be that hard to clear out some cap. 

Getting high-end players is a lot harder than figuring out how to pay for it. Following your 'don't ever pay anyone' philosophy would only leave us with a s***tier team and some unused cap space.

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Ducks have to move Fowler to sign Lindholm.  They want to move him west.  Mantha or AA plus a pick should do it, but because the Wings have no cap room thanks to Holland overpaying mediocre players, they can't do that.

 

I've never said don't pay anyone.  Not even close.  What I've said is that the Wings' management needs to acknowledge that this IS a rebuild and act accordingly, and that I think overpaying average players on 4+ year deals is beyond stupid.  It does nothing for the team.  The advantage of a long term deal is either to lock up a star player who you can build around or get a lesser player at a lower cap hit.  The deals for Abdelkader, Helm, Nielsen, and Glendening do neither.  

 

Where do you get the idea that I'd be complaining about Holland not spending money if he hadn't gotten players on good deals?  I've been very clear since last season ended that I'd rather see them leave cap space unused and go with more youth than sign average vets.

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5 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

His contract makes it matter.  When Lapointe, coming off his second 40 point season when he scored 27 goals, wanted to get paid and Boston offered him a big contract, Holland let him walk.  Abdelkader had one season where he produced and Holland handed him a big contract early on in the process.  There are cheaper ways to get that production, even if it means losing a couple goals.  Wouldn't it be nice to have a few million in cap space to be able to go get Fowler or Trouba?  But they can't, because Uncle Kenny felt he had to take care of his kids and overpay average players and now they don't ahve any cap room.  But hey, at least Kenny has a built in excuse for not making a trade now, it has to be dollars in and dollars out, and the Ducks and Jets don't want to add salary.

A smart GM would have had the team right at the cap before Franzen and Vitale went on LTIR, instead of at the cap after their money came off.  That would have left them with some decent coin to play with.  Now they have nothing.

I understand your point, but Lapointe isn't really a good example. You have even said it yourself, pre-cap and post-cap are two different worlds. In the pre-cap era good to elite players hit unrestricted free agency all time time, so losing someone was never really a big deal as it was easy to sign someone to replace them. Now a days its different. you lose Abby, you can just go out and sign a Hull and Robitaille to replace him. Availability wise, and cap wise you would run into issues in 2016.

I personally don't have an issue with the Abby contract, sure I wish it was 5 years and not 7 years, but I think he brings a lot to the table that other guys don't on this roster. A gritty leader who can score over 20 goals, and 40 points. Its the contracts surrounding him that are the problem.

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4 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

His contract makes it matter.  When Lapointe, coming off his second 40 point season when he scored 27 goals, wanted to get paid and Boston offered him a big contract, Holland let him walk.  Abdelkader had one season where he produced and Holland handed him a big contract early on in the process.  There are cheaper ways to get that production, even if it means losing a couple goals.  Wouldn't it be nice to have a few million in cap space to be able to go get Fowler or Trouba?  But they can't, because Uncle Kenny felt he had to take care of his kids and overpay average players and now they don't ahve any cap room.  But hey, at least Kenny has a built in excuse for not making a trade now, it has to be dollars in and dollars out, and the Ducks and Jets don't want to add salary.

A smart GM would have had the team right at the cap before Franzen and Vitale went on LTIR, instead of at the cap after their money came off.  That would have left them with some decent coin to play with.  Now they have nothing.

If you're going to keep using the Lapointe comparison I'll keep pointing the differences. A very key difference is that Boston gave Lapointe 16 million for 3 years. That was 2001-02, so with inflation, I think you should consider that as somewhere over 6 mill per for a caphit. If Abby was asking for that much I'm sure we would have let him go. A player making 4.25 is not the same situation.

You discount "intangebles" (a misnomer) but if you were to go with the cheaper option to get that production, they wouldn't have the toughness, ability to win board/netfront battles, PK ability, leadership, that Abby provides and I think the line and team would be lesser for it.

I don't see how you can claim overpaying Helm and Abby as a roadblock to making a trade. We had 3.425 to throw at Vanek, Miller and Ott. If we were planning to leave room for a traded salary, we could have just not signed those guys. Fowler makes 4 mill - with whatever player we would trade for him seems pretty sure to work in that case (eg. Smith or Marchenko+a prospect would fit the cap situation)

 

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