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Blashill tinkering with lines after Tampa loss

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Lapointe's deal was without a cap, that matters.  Holland still let him go.

Abdelkader has scored 20 goals one time.  That doesn't make him a 20 goal player.

You can't just not sign 3 players and trade for one who makes as much as the three of them and call it good.  You still need to pay two more players, and Miller and Ott make peanuts.  The recent anchor deals are Nielsen (too long), Abdelakder and Helm (too much and too long) and potentially Nyquist if he doesn't pull his head out of his arse and start playing big boy hockey.

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2 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Ducks have to move Fowler to sign Lindholm.  They want to move him west.  Mantha or AA plus a pick should do it, but because the Wings have no cap room thanks to Holland overpaying mediocre players, they can't do that.

 

I've never said don't pay anyone.  Not even close.  What I've said is that the Wings' management needs to acknowledge that this IS a rebuild and act accordingly, and that I think overpaying average players on 4+ year deals is beyond stupid.  It does nothing for the team.  The advantage of a long term deal is either to lock up a star player who you can build around or get a lesser player at a lower cap hit.  The deals for Abdelkader, Helm, Nielsen, and Glendening do neither.  

 

Where do you get the idea that I'd be complaining about Holland not spending money if he hadn't gotten players on good deals?  I've been very clear since last season ended that I'd rather see them leave cap space unused and go with more youth than sign average vets.

But you're wrong. We can do that, we'd just have to move some cap in a separate deal. Worst case would be trading someone like Smith or Tatar for well under their value, which ultimately would be no different than if we had let Abby walk.

Also, the Ducks have to clear some cap space. Moving Fowler would be one way of doing that, but not the only way. They do not have to trade him. Also, remember this summer when everyone was so certain that Nyquist+ was enough to get Fowler? You thinking "should do it" doesn't mean "would do it". You think Mantha and AA have such low potential that we'd be stupid not to trade one (plus a pick) for Fowler, what could possibly make you so sure the Ducks would be interested?

There is no right way to rebuild. Everything has been tried, and everything fails more often than not. The reality is that building a contender is, more than anything, about just getting lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time to get a superstar or two. Building the secondary cast is also vital, but it won't do anything without the stars. But if you don't want to pay "average" players or offer any term, you're not going to sign anyone. You're not going to build that secondary.

Ok, maybe you wouldn't be bitching if we had a worse-but-cheaper team. Kind of the nature of disgruntled-fandom to do so when things aren't going well, and there's no end to hypotheticals one could image that would conceivably be better, but whatever. You'd be happy as a clam no doubt.

We have some short-term cap issues, but it's not reasonable to think we're going to be real contenders over the next few years anyway, short of getting extremely lucky with some of our kids. Longer-term, we're fine, and having solid veteran leadership, even if they're over-payed role-players by then, will be a valuable asset to the young stars we'll hopefully have. And if we don't have the young stars, it won't matter.

 

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2 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Lapointe's deal was without a cap, that matters.  Holland still let him go.

Abdelkader has scored 20 goals one time.  That doesn't make him a 20 goal player.

You can't just not sign 3 players and trade for one who makes as much as the three of them and call it good.  You still need to pay two more players, and Miller and Ott make peanuts.  The recent anchor deals are Nielsen (too long), Abdelakder and Helm (too much and too long) and potentially Nyquist if he doesn't pull his head out of his arse and start playing big boy hockey.

Obviously I didn't mean just don't sign 3 players - These guys (minus Ott who I shouldn't have included) are higher cost UFA options for the spots they fill. Don't sign them and give the spots to prospects saves you cap space. I'll do the math:

Even if we just didn't sign Vanek: Vanek's 2.6+Smith's 2.75 = 5.35 (a.k.a. room for Fowler's 4 mill + 1.35 is more than enough for Pulkkinen or Mantha or whoever takes Vanek's spot)

I was off when I included the option of trading Marchenko, but that probably wouldn't be likely anyway.

The main guess is that Ducks wanted Nyquist anyway, so there's no need to worry about cap issues since Nyquist's cap hit is bigger. You would just have to make space on the D end.

The larger point is that it seems like a forced connection between Abdelkader's contract and making space for a trade.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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2 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

 potentially Nyquist if he doesn't pull his head out of his arse and start playing big boy hockey.

LOL Best way i've heard it described. He plays like a *****, but is still good for 50 points. Imagine if he wasn't scared to get hit?

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2 hours ago, chaps80 said:

LOL Best way i've heard it described. He plays like a *****, but is still good for 50 points. Imagine if he wasn't scared to get hit?

careful, if you agree with that you might be asked if you're a real person

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He can tinker all he wants, no line combinations or defense pairings are going to hide the fact that the team has no top line caliber forwards or top pair caliber defensemen.  Dekeyser is their best defenseman, and he's a good second pair guy.  Everyone else is either mediocre second pair or third pair.  Up front they have a bunch of second and third pair guys bolstered by a bunch of guys who are fourth liners or reserve players on a good team.  That means every night you're going to have a bunch of players playing roles that they're not suited to play.  Add that to a coach who has no idea how to implement anything resembling a system and tends to resort to acting like the previous coach when he's stuck and you get a bad team.  

 

And before anyone says it, this isn't a reaction to losing the first two games in ugly fashion.  This is what I saw as soon as Holland filled out the roster with these guys.  It's why I said I'd rather have seen them chuck the vets and go with a full blown youth movement.  If you're not going to give yourself a good shot at the playoffs, you might as well get the kids experience and see what you ahve in them.

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1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

It's why I said I'd rather have seen them chuck the vets and go with a full blown youth movement.

 

I believe Ken is not watching this league. Team with such a core must proceed with immediate actions, see Flyers example with D. Not saying Sproul, Russo, Mantha, Svech, Callahan, Villi, Axel etc will make p-o, but their current energy, enthusiasm to play NHL level could fill up some holes which coach can´t.

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This thread needs some uplifting. We have a lot of home games coming up. Both Tampa and Florida trapped our defense good, especially Tampa. This shouldn't be as easy to do when we're home due to change advantage.

Should result in something better. Granted, doesn't solve the situation though.

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The worst part of the lineup is that it was supposedly built to make sure the streak was going to continue, that's why it was so important to bring back Helm, extend Glendening, lock Abdelkader up, and sign Nielsen, all for 4+ years and at more money than they're worth.  Now instead of being able to go with a youth movement, the roster is clogged with average to bad vets for the next few years.  These guys are not going to get better with age and they're going to drag down and sabotage anything the kids they have can potentially do.  

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Admittedly I missed yesterday's game.  But based on what I've seen so far I'd do something like

Nyquist-Neilsen-Vanek

Tatar-Larkin-Abby

Z-AA-Mantha

Glendening-Helm-Sheahan

 

Z looks sloooooooow.  Keep his minutes down until he's back in game shape.  Plus, how sweet is it that he started his career as the "kid", and now he'd be the "old goat"?

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25 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Admittedly I missed yesterday's game.  But based on what I've seen so far I'd do something like

Nyquist-Neilsen-Vanek

Tatar-Larkin-Abby

Z-AA-Mantha

Glendening-Helm-Sheahan

 

Z looks sloooooooow.  Keep his minutes down until he's back in game shape.  Plus, how sweet is it that he started his career as the "kid", and now he'd be the "old goat"?

Yeah it would be cool as hell but unfortunately the team isn't that good anymore so the fan base completely has turned against him. I remember when we were still a contender and Yzerman was extremely slow and could barely play but none of us raged at him because we were still a presidents trophy team. 

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On 10/15/2016 at 10:27 AM, DickieDunn said:


Most decent NHL players could score 40 points playing top line minutes, even with an aging Datsyuk and Zetterberg.  That's what the definition of decent is.  Good NHL wingers given that much time with good line mates produce more than that. 15-20 goals in the NHL is nothing special, please stop acting like Abdelkader is some kind of high end player because of it.  He's not.  He's an average player who uses his size to make up for what he lacks in skill.  This isn't hating on him, it's what he is.  I had no problem with him playing with Datsyuk as long as he did produce 20 goals.  My problem is Holland paying him like he's capable of doing that without riding shot gun for high end players.  Every team who has signed a guy like that to that kind of deal has regretted it, especially when the player is approaching 30 years old.

Jurco could be decent like Abdelkader is decent.  When was he ever really given a chance to play on an offensive line though, other than some games with Datsyuk his first half season in Detroit where he had 15 points in 36 games, not bad for a rookie playing 13:27 a night.  The next year he played less, more often on the 4th line in a role he's not suited for.  Last year he played even less almost exclusively with Glendening.  He has decent speed when his back isn't screwed up, has shown a good scoring tough in juniors and his second year in GR. He's not a grinder though, which is how he's been used exclusively when he's played.  Hell, even when he's had a decent game and Blashcock complimented him, he was a scratch the very next game.  How is he supposed to have any kind of success that way?  That's like hiring doctor to be an electrician and wondering why your lights don't work.

First of all, your issue stems from Abdelkader scoring around 20 goals and 40 points and being offered 4 million + for long term. Last year you predicted that he wouldn't hit that mark. He did. Now you're predicting he won't hit it this year, so we'll see. 

Next Abdelkader can not only score 20 goals and 40 points but he lead the team in hits, he kills penalties (best penalty killer last year on team as far as goals against per penalty killing minutes I believe), he can play net front during PP, he can fight (if you're into that), he can play a shutdown role on any line whether its top line or 4th line (he did last year against Tyler Johnson for game 3 in the playoffs). Bottom line, he's versatile.

Compare that to Nyquist who scores about the same rate of points as Abby, earns around the same salary, CAN'T kill penalties, CAN'T play on a shutdown role, CAN'T throw hits, CAN'T fight. 

Jurco also can't do any of the things I just listed about Abby except maybe has the skill to put up points.

Who the hell would want a guy who can only "Decently" put up like 40 points over a guy who can put up 40 points AND do everything I just listed?

And no it's not like asking a doctor to be an electrician, it's more like asking a Resident doctor in training having to administer emergency medications on a patient in the ER without the help of Attending Doctors. Jurco has to create his own resume, no one is going to walk him through it. That's the card that's been dealt to him. If Jurco had those versatile skills like Abby did, he probably would have gotten a top 6 spot because we need big bodies players who can play that type of role since we lack in that department. 

You're acting like Abby was handed the top 6 position out of nowhere. He was put on that top line just to be a piano mover. NOBODY expected him to score much or contribute anything else besides contributing in puck battles. He ended up being able to do that and everything else, including score points. He exceeded the expectations of coaches and management. 

Edited by kickazz

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On 10/15/2016 at 4:26 PM, DickieDunn said:

Lapointe's deal was without a cap, that matters.  Holland still let him go.

Abdelkader has scored 20 goals one time.  That doesn't make him a 20 goal player.

You can't just not sign 3 players and trade for one who makes as much as the three of them and call it good.  You still need to pay two more players, and Miller and Ott make peanuts.  The recent anchor deals are Nielsen (too long), Abdelakder and Helm (too much and too long) and potentially Nyquist if he doesn't pull his head out of his arse and start playing big boy hockey.

Again, it does matter but not for the reason you think it does. Back then unrestricted free agency was essentially a slew of stars, and a team like Detroit could pretty much sign anyone they wanted to replace a departed player because there was no cap and they could pretty much outbid anyone. Best example of this is when LaPointe left, Holland signed Hull and Robitaille. A player like Abby leaves and you have 30 teams with almost equal chances (due to the cap) all trying to sign a very small group of above average players (ie. Nielson, Okposo, Backes etc.) Much much much higher probability of replacing LaPointe in 2002 then replacing Abby in 2016.

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Cmon dude the hate is real. You're nitpicking arguments to favor yourself. 19 goals vs 20 goals? Really? 

He was top 3 in goals on the team last year. More goals than Nyquist, Zetterberg who both make similar or higher salaries.

He was 5th in points, and the people who scored more than him scored only 1-2 points more. Only Zetterberg was far ahead on the point list, everyone was around the 42-45 point range. 

So he was our 3rd best goal scorer and one of our top 5 point scorers.

In 2002, our 3rd best goal scorer on the team was Brett Hull. In 2015 our 3rd best goal scorer was Abdelkader. 

When I put it that way, it makes him look really good doesn't it? 

 

Edited by kickazz

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On 10/16/2016 at 10:49 PM, DickieDunn said:

Abdelkader hit 40 points, barley, but didn't hit 20 gals, and 4 of the 19 he did score came in the first 2 games.  15 goals 37 points in his last 80 games, 16 and 38 in 85 counting playoffs.  That's not good production.  

The Wings offense as a whole last year was awful yet your going to cherry pick Abby's stats?

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