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LeftWinger

Jacob Trouba watch

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6 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Nielsen will be fine. There's no reason he cannot play out his contract and contribute every year. His health history is fantastic.

I think it's worth keeping in mind that he, having only played for the Islanders, really hasn't seen much playoff action at all. (A grand total of 24 postseason games.) So, in terms of wear and tear and mileage (not to mention the clean and efficient brand of hockey he plays), I'd say he's a "young 32."

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I know I'm definitely in the minority here, but if it came down to it and we had to give up one of Mantha or Athanasiou in a trade for a high end defenseman like Trouba, I'd trade Athanasiou. I know centers have more value than wingers, but I think Mantha has the higher ceiling. I see AA becoming a 2nd / 3rd line center (possibly even winger), and Mantha becoming a 1st / 2nd line winger. Of course, I'd much rather trade Nyquist or Tatar plus, but unfortunately that probably won't get it done...

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To be fair, he didn't say Nielsen wouldn't slow down, he said:
"Nielsen will be fine. There's no reason he cannot play out his contract and contribute every year. His health history is fantastic".
The implication here is that he will be a contributing member of this team until his contract is over. Not that he will stay at the exact level he is at today.
 

The problem is contribute doesn't mean come close to being worth that contract. When we're paying that much to a third line center for 30-35 points a year, that's going to be a problem.
I know I'm definitely in the minority here, but if it came down to it and we had to give up one of Mantha or Athanasiou in a trade for a high end defenseman like Trouba, I'd trade Athanasiou. I know centers have more value than wingers, but I think Mantha has the higher ceiling. I see AA becoming a 2nd / 3rd line center (possibly even winger), and Mantha becoming a 1st / 2nd line winger. Of course, I'd much rather trade Nyquist or Tatar plus, but unfortunately that probably won't get it done...


Nyquist or Dekeyser would have to go

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6 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:


The problem is contribute doesn't mean come close to being worth that contract. When we're paying that much to a third line center for 30-35 points a year, that's going to be a problem.

You may be right. His caphit is 5.25 million (we're not talking Toews money here), so it really comes down to what the market is in 3-5 years. Who knows what the cap will be at that point, who knows what the going rate is for a 3C will be at that point. If I had to guess I would probably agree, but to pretend like the worst case scenario is a given is just playing to an extreme.

Edited by kliq

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1 minute ago, Andy Pred 48 said:

I think the topic of the thread should be changed to the Cam Fowler watch.

Why? I think we have a better shot at getting Trouba then Fowler... Anaheim don't want any salary back in a trade, and we can't trade for a player unless equal salary is going the other way...

Sure, we could make two separate trades, but I still say the likelihood of trading for Trouba is much higher than Holland making TWO big trades...

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3 hours ago, Andy Pred 48 said:

I think the topic of the thread should be changed to the Cam Fowler watch.

Well until a trade is made or not, to us or someone else, we are ALL interested in watching what happens with Trouba.  If the MODS want to change the title to Trouba/Fowler watch, that'll be cool too! Since those seem to be the main two guys getting most the association with Detroit.

 

I'm still holding out for both, but I am not sure Holland has it in him to pull off TWO big deals like these! :lol:

I think as it gets closer to December 1, the price for BOTH guys will come down, because the Jets will want to move him and get something in return and the Ducks don't want to have Lindholm sit out the entire season.

Problem is, I think Holland will actually have to make THREE deals in order to acquire both.

1. Trade Jimmy for a pick to clear cap.(I've seen ARZ mentioned, do they need a goalie? What's up with Mike Smith?)

2. Trade 2017 3rd pick (form TOR) for Fowler

3. Trade XO, Smith, Nyquist(or Tatar) and a 2018 1st for Trouba. (No worries Smith fans, he is UFA in July and could be back! :thumbup: )

Its all so simple! :lol:

re-sign Trouba for 8 years $5.5M per.

Abdelkaer - Zetterberg - Athanasiou

Mantha - Nielsen - Larkin

Nyquist - Helm - Vanek

Miller - Glendening - Sheahan

Ott

Jurco(injured)

 

Dekeyser - Trouba

Fowler - Green

Ericsson - Marchenko

Sproul

Kronwall (injured)

 

Mrazek

Pasquele

 

...of course then deal with the roster at a later date when Kronwall and Jurco come back.

Edited by LeftWinger

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I know in we aren't getting both, hell, we'll be lucky to get even one. But until all the tire kicking is done, and they are traded elsewhere (if at all) I can dream and hold out hope!

 

BTW, with the roster moves above and re-signing Trouba, we are under the cap by $1.1M WITH Kronwall and Jurco's salary.

Come expansion:

Protect:

Abdelkader, Nyquist, AA, Mantha, Nielsen (NMC,) Helm, Sheahan

DD, Trouba, Fowler

Mrazek

 

...if you are offering Vanek a contract, leave him unprotected and wait until after the expansion draft! Or if you extend him before, protect him in place of Sheahan maybe.

Edited by LeftWinger

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5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Why? I think we have a better shot at getting Trouba then Fowler... Anaheim don't want any salary back in a trade, and we can't trade for a player unless equal salary is going the other way...

Sure, we could make two separate trades, but I still say the likelihood of trading for Trouba is much higher than Holland making TWO big trades...

But unless we're trading Dekeyser (which would kind of defeat the purpose), we don't have what the Jets want in return. Plus we may still need to clear some extra cap.

We wouldn't need to clear that much to fit Fowler. Dump Smith for a pick. Not exactly a big trade. Another small trade to dump Ouellet or Marchenko, or just waive someone. And that's only one of a handful of options.

We're not a great trade fit in either case, but I'd say it's a bit more likely that we can free up a little cap space than we can convince the Jets to change what they're asking for.

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I just suggested the change tongue in cheek as I think we are after Fowler now and Trouba when he's a UFA , no other reason. People sure do take things seriously on here eh? Anyway Sproul is going to save Kennys face by being a stud when he gets in. 

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1 hour ago, Andy Pred 48 said:

I just suggested the change tongue in cheek as I think we are after Fowler now and Trouba when he's a UFA , no other reason. People sure do take things seriously on here eh? Anyway Sproul is going to save Kennys face by being a stud when he gets in. 

Nobody took offense, I certainly didn't. I too think Fowler would be the easier of the two to acquire, but like I said, I'm holding out for BOTH! :lol: 

 

1 hour ago, F.Michael said:

Let me start by saying that I don't follow GR at all.

 

Now that said - how exactly is a guy in GR gonna be a stud when there's already a few guys ahead of him Marchenko/Ouellet are already in Detroit?

 

If Sproul was a stud - wouldn't he be in Detroit too, or wouldn't he had taken the place of either of the 2 guys mentioned above?

Uh....Sproul never got sent down, he is playing tonight and XO is a healthy scratch. With Kronner being injured they kept 8 D-Men on the roster.  Even with Kronner on the mend, his cap is still there, so even when he comes back, they don't need to send either of XO or Sproul down.  My theory is they are rotating them here and there to basically audition for the job when it does come down to crunch time, or a trade.

 

Edited by LeftWinger

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16 hours ago, marcaractac said:

When you have to choose between a high-end dman and a high-end winger, you go with the dman. They are a hell of a lot more difficult to come by these days. Giving up Mantha would not be foolish. It would be a realistic asset to have to part ways with to acquire a potential #1 defenseman. 

You just said it ... Potential number 1 , If it was ekman Larsson  I'd reconsider , just think since we won't be cup contenders next few seasons we can wait for trouba to be a ufa in 4 years and come back home (I'm convinced he'd come to Detroit the second he gets the chance) and that way we keep both 

 

and it's not easy to add a high end winger these days either, mantha scored again tonight and I think given the right chance he'd really succeed ,wings should use him for his shot on the powerplay and not use his size to park him in front that's not his job, give those roles to abdelkader and sheahan, he was never used good

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With either one you're talking potential though.  It comes down to who you think is going to be more likely to hit their ceiling, and I think that's Trouba.  Mantha's biggest issue has been work ethic since before he was drafted, that's not easy to over come.  As long as they don't demand another top prospect or a first as well (unless it's lottery protected) and you can clear enough cap space to sign him, then you do the Mantha for Trouba deal without hesitation.  Of course, we all know Kenny won't.

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10 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

With either one you're talking potential though.  It comes down to who you think is going to be more likely to hit their ceiling, and I think that's Trouba.  Mantha's biggest issue has been work ethic since before he was drafted, that's not easy to over come.  As long as they don't demand another top prospect or a first as well (unless it's lottery protected) and you can clear enough cap space to sign him, then you do the Mantha for Trouba deal without hesitation.  Of course, we all know Kenny won't.

I dont believe that for a second. All reports said that Holland was willing to trade anybody except Larkin, I would put money on it that if the Jets offered Trouba for Mantha 1 for 1, Holland would do it in a second.

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6 hours ago, kliq said:

I dont believe that for a second. All reports said that Holland was willing to trade anybody except Larkin, I would put money on it that if the Jets offered Trouba for Mantha 1 for 1, Holland would do it in a second.

read what I wrote.  I never suggested Mantha alone was enough

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3 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

read what I wrote.  I never suggested Mantha alone was enough

I'm not going through your posting history, I was commenting on your last post. I'm sure you were just being cynical for the sake of being cynical.

Edited by kliq

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There are 3 good Dmen that are rumored to be available: Trouba, Fowler, and Shattenkirk. Anyone of these 3 makes us a better team. getting 2 or 3 of these guys fixes our blueline for the next 6-8 years. Imagine if you will a top 4 of:

DD-Shattenkirk

Fowler-Trouba

Those 4 will eat up 50 mins of game time per night. You are also looking at a group that will put up 140+ points and 30+ goals. The question becomes how? What does each guy cost, what does the other team want, and do we have the cap space to do it?

So the rumors:

The Jets want a LHed Dman of the same age for Trouba + another player/pick.

The Ducks want 0 salary/cap coming back for Fowler.

The Blues are unclear.

On our side the 3 of them are going to cost around 15 million per year in salary/cap space. We don't have the room atm. We would have to move guys out.

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4 minutes ago, Richdg said:

The Blues are unclear.

 

On our side the 3 of them are going to cost around 15 million per year in salary/cap space. We don't have the room atm. We would have to move guys out.

Reports in the summer suggested that the Blues asked for Larkin.

http://nhl.nbcsports.com/2016/06/26/report-blues-asked-wings-for-larkin-in-trade-for-shattenkirk/comment-page-1/

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35 minutes ago, Richdg said:

There are 3 good Dmen that are rumored to be available: Trouba, Fowler, and Shattenkirk. Anyone of these 3 makes us a better team. getting 2 or 3 of these guys fixes our blueline for the next 6-8 years. Imagine if you will a top 4 of:

DD-Shattenkirk

Fowler-Trouba

Those 4 will eat up 50 mins of game time per night. You are also looking at a group that will put up 140+ points and 30+ goals. The question becomes how? What does each guy cost, what does the other team want, and do we have the cap space to do it?

Imagine if we had a top line of:

Kreider - Larkin - Tarasenko

......

I love the optimism of some hoping to land 2 or 3 of these top defensemen available... It's a long shot that we get even one, zero chance we get 2 or 3...

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Going to have to move amounts that most likely reflects the likes of Howard, Smith, Tatar/Nyquist, and I think XO would be the young D going back to WPG.

Trade Howard for a 3rd to clear cap, trade that 3rd to Anaheim for Fowler, trade XO, Smith, Nyq/Tat and a pick for Trouba.

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2 hours ago, Richdg said:

There are 3 good Dmen that are rumored to be available: Trouba, Fowler, and Shattenkirk. Anyone of these 3 makes us a better team. getting 2 or 3 of these guys fixes our blueline for the next 6-8 years. Imagine if you will a top 4 of:

DD-Shattenkirk

Fowler-Trouba

I think I've kind of accepted that we're pretty much stuck with what we have.

Bottom line is we're up against the cap and we don't have many ultra-sexy assets that we can offer up in a trade proposal. And that's saying nothing of the specific circumstances of each of the three aforementioned trade targets and of their respective clubs.

Consider Shattenkirk:

  • He's on the last year of his contract
  • He won't necessarily be traded. (You'd probably have to blow Doug Armstrong out of the water with your offer)
  • What if we acquire him -- and give up a significant asset (or two, or three) to do so -- and he signs elsewhere in the summer? Are we close enough to winning a Cup that it'd be worth the risk? Personally, no, I don't think we are
  • Say we don't acquire him but do plan to target him if he hits the open market in the summer. Even if he 1) hits the open market and 2) doesn't have his heart set on a certain team (though, word on the street is he wants to be a Ranger), you're looking at a bidding war and, ultimately, a massive payday for him. Personally, I don't see us winning that bidding war

Consider Fowler:

  • Great skater, but not necessarily a great defenseman who's going to fill a critical hole on our blue line. IMHO, if we're moving Nyquist or Tatar for him, we're probably not improving the team by all that much, if at all. Might even be taking a bit of a step back

We've all talked about Trouba to death, so I won't even touch on him.

So, unfortunately, our D group seems to be more-or-less set, at least for the time being. ("The time being" probably = the rest of this season, maybe longer.)

Edited by Dabura

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4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Imagine if we had a top line of:

Kreider - Larkin - Tarasenko

......

I love the optimism of some hoping to land 2 or 3 of these top defensemen available... It's a long shot that we get even one, zero chance we get 2 or 3...

Yes it is a dream. But it also possible if Holland would act. No you can't do it all in one day. But let's pretend for a few minutes.

1. You send Tatar, Nyquist, and Smith to the Jets. That opens up 3 spots on the roster for Trouba, MANtha, and Jurco when he returns. That also opens up about 10 million in cap space. Resign trouba-that should cost 4.5-5 million for the next 7-8 years.

2. Now you have cap space to make a move for another player. Ok our 2017 1st round pick to the Ducks for Fowler. The Ducks get what they want and we get what we need. Fowler has a 4 million cap hit and 1 more year to go.

Both of those deals can be done any time. Going after Shattenkirk will take more time. We don't know how stuck on becoming a UFA he is. Maybe that is his ultimate goal. If so then getting him isn't worth it. Maybe getting a fair deal is all he is interested in. The Blues are cap tight and can't do much in terms of resigning him. We can if we try to. We have enough young and cheap pieces not named Larkin and MANtha to get the job done. If Shattenkirk is willing to resign that is.

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1 hour ago, Richdg said:

Yes it is a dream. But it also possible if Holland would act. No you can't do it all in one day. But let's pretend for a few minutes.

1. You send Tatar, Nyquist, and Smith to the Jets. That opens up 3 spots on the roster for Trouba, MANtha, and Jurco when he returns. That also opens up about 10 million in cap space. Resign trouba-that should cost 4.5-5 million for the next 7-8 years.

2. Now you have cap space to make a move for another player. Ok our 2017 1st round pick to the Ducks for Fowler. The Ducks get what they want and we get what we need. Fowler has a 4 million cap hit and 1 more year to go.

Both of those deals can be done any time. Going after Shattenkirk will take more time. We don't know how stuck on becoming a UFA he is. Maybe that is his ultimate goal. If so then getting him isn't worth it. Maybe getting a fair deal is all he is interested in. The Blues are cap tight and can't do much in terms of resigning him. We can if we try to. We have enough young and cheap pieces not named Larkin and MANtha to get the job done. If Shattenkirk is willing to resign that is.

The one problem with your plan is that we can only protect 3 D, so if you have DD, Fowler, Shattenkirk, and Trouba I can pretty much guarantee that the one you dont protect will be in Vegas next year.

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