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Richdg

The MANtha watch.....

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6 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Finally get along? You're a new user, it's not like we've ever debated before. Hmmm....

I'll give Franzen his couple of seasons and it would be nice to have Mantha score 30+ goals a few times too.

30+ goals by Franzen only happened once. 

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If Franzen never once suffered a concussion, I think its fair to say his production would have been extremely high over a long period of time. If Mantha gets to Franzen level production but can stay healthy I would be ecstatic, that is not a knock on Mantha, its praise for Franzen.

I know people get down on Franzen because he would disappear at times, IMO that is what a brain injury will do to you. It scares you, and rightfully so as that s*** is scary.

Edited by kliq

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1 hour ago, Richdg said:

Since Z and Tatar have been here for a while, would it be fair to say that MANtha is the main reason for the production? So glad we wasted a month of the season before we brought him up.

I think the main reason for the production is the chemistry between Zetterberg and Mantha. Its not Mantha doing it alone.

He has really impressed me though.

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Yeah, the chemistry is very visible, great to watch.  Glad Z is clicking with someone. Hopefully the regularity of that line ends up uncorking Tatar at some point as well.  

I think that Vanek/Larkin/Nyquist has the potential to really start clicking as well - there are some great moments there.  Fingers crossed, I guess.

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On 12/5/2016 at 0:01 AM, kliq said:

I think the main reason for the production is the chemistry between Zetterberg and Mantha. Its not Mantha doing it alone.

He has really impressed me though.

No he isn't doing it alone. But he is the element that has been added. Z and tatar have played with each other for a couple of years now off and on. There has never much going on there. Now we add MANtha and the line looks 100% better.

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3 hours ago, Richdg said:

No he isn't doing it alone. But he is the element that has been added. Z and tatar have played with each other for a couple of years now off and on. There has never much going on there. Now we add MANtha and the line looks 100% better.

You make it sound like Zetterberg has never had chemistry with anyone before. This isnt worth debating.

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41 minutes ago, kliq said:

You make it sound like Zetterberg has never had chemistry with anyone before. This isnt worth debating.

Over the past 2-3 years there hasn't been much other than when he played with Dat. That is not to say I blame Z for it. yes he has slowed down a ton with age/injury. But the never ending shuffling of lines is much more to blame. But the point I was making-maybe poorly, is that when Z and tatar have been paired up before they haven't been very effective. Now those 2 with Mantha is very effective. With Z slowing down and Tatar regressing (I would say returning to form), why is that line effective? The new element in the mix is Mantha. 

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The Mantha- Zetterberg - Tatar line is better than that Abdelkader - Zetterberg - Larkin line was in terms of corsi stats. But that makes sense though because all three players are extremely high volume shooters. 

Can you imagine how good they would be if Tatar didn't actually suck this year? 

Also want to point out that Mantha's wrist shot is crazy accurate. 

Edited by kickazz

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On 12/1/2016 at 7:45 PM, kliq said:

If Franzen never once suffered a concussion, I think its fair to say his production would have been extremely high over a long period of time. If Mantha gets to Franzen level production but can stay healthy I would be ecstatic, that is not a knock on Mantha, its praise for Franzen.

I know people get down on Franzen because he would disappear at times, IMO that is what a brain injury will do to you. It scares you, and rightfully so as that s*** is scary.

I dont think thats very accurate to say his production would be very high for a long time. Concussions may have ended his career but his laziness started well before that. It had more to do with Long Term Contract Syndrome than it did Post Concussion Syndrome. Franzen wouldn't just disappear at times. That happens to every player. The problem was when he was invisible he really never played like he was trying to play himself out of that rut. He would just loaf around. He said on more than one occasion he found it hard to motivate himself to play during the regular season and that was on a good team. As this roster decayed how do you think that motivation would have been on a bad team? When criticized about his lack of scoring he would just say that he wasnt paid to be a scorer when in fact that was exactly what he was being paid for. I feel its safe to say that if Franzen was still playing today he would be viewed as another under-performing old player blocking a younger guy from getting a shot.

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The whole "Franzen is a goal scorer" crap was unfortunately started by Mickey Redmond and fans. Franzen was never a 50 goal scorer, or a 40 goal scorer. Really only broke 30 goals like once. So it's pretty unfair to label him as one and then keep pressuring him to score that way. That's probably the reason why whenever the press asked him abut his scoring he would come out and say "I'm not really a goal scorer" or whatever his comments were. 

Honestly Franzen wasn't even projected to be a top 6 player but he still became one and produced like one. Especially in the playoffs. So at the end of the day, he exceeded expectations. But I don't think he would have ever been a high point producer like Dats or Z were, probably a notch below them. Somewhere above average in terms of overall point scoring and definitely above average in goal scoring. He had a wicked wrist shot. 

Edited by kickazz

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3 hours ago, kickazz said:

The Mantha- Zetterberg - Tatar line is better than that Abdelkader - Zetterberg - Larkin line was in terms of corsi stats. But that makes sense though because all three players are extremely high volume shooters. 

Can you imagine how good they would be if Tatar didn't actually suck this year? 

Also want to point out that Mantha's wrist shot is crazy accurate. 

As awesome as that line has been, I wouldn't mind seeing what it would look like with Nyquist in place of Tatar. Put Tatar on a line with Vanek or Jurco centered by Larkin or Nielsen.

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1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I think the point everyone needs to realize is that Mantha is a legit, top 6 NHLer.  Not a prospect.  Not a project.  He's legit right now.

 

Mantha, Larkin, Athanasiou, Bertuzzi, Svechnikov, Nosek.

 

I'm pretty happy with that as a core for the youth movement, honestly.

I get the excitement for Mantha, Larkin, and Athanasiou, but wouldn't you agree its a bit premature to label the other three as future core players when none of them are even established NHLers?  It wasn't too long ago many people were saying Nyquist Tatar Jurco Sheehan will be a solid core for the Wings.

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1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I think the point everyone needs to realize is that Mantha is a legit, top 6 NHLer.  Not a prospect.  Not a project.  He's legit right now.

Mantha, Larkin, Athanasiou, Bertuzzi, Svechnikov, Nosek.

I'm pretty happy with that as a core for the youth movement, honestly.

And yet you spent yesterday pushing a completely different viewpoint in multiple responses to me in the defense thread:

17 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Exactly.  Holland is in charge of making sure this team has assets.  The well is dry right now.  Our finest forward prospects are looking like career 2nd or 3rd liners, and we can't get a defenseman prospect to look better than a career #4.  Something needs to change.

Anyway, I'm in line with your optimism in this thread. Hope Mantha keeps it going and is not only kept in the NHL for the rest of the year, but kept on scoring lines.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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15 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I still stand by both.  Mantha-Larkin-Jurco get crushed by a good top line (Penguins, Blackhawks, Kings, etc.).  But they look good from 2nd line on down.

But you said that "Our finest forward prospects are looking like CAREER 2nd or 3rd liners," Now you say that you're happy with Mantha, Larkin etc. as "a core for the youth movement, honestly." That is a contradiction unless you're happy with a future team core that you think won't be anything more than 2nd and 3rd liners.

And you said the "the well is dry" and now you say you're about our young forward group that you're "happy with that as a core for the youth movement, honestly." That is a contradiction.

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2 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I see your point.  I just feel that Bertuzzi and Nosek are going to be sold 4th liners for us.  And i forgot Jurco.  How would you fill us out?

 

Mantha-Larkin-_________

Jurco-Athanasiou-_________

________-Svechnikov-_________

Bertuzzi-Nosek-Callahan

 

I'd like to see Helm, Zetterberg, Vanek, Nielsen, and Abdelkader in some capacity.  

I'm personally not a fan of assembling lines (not that I have anything against those who do).  Its pretty rare that a line built on paper works out how we expect it would in real life, and I've seen plenty of lines kick ass when I would have never guessed they had any chance at production.  I'm done trying to figure it out lol.  Also Blueadams has already analyzed every possible combination of red wing lines for the next 15 years.

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32 minutes ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

But you said that "Our finest forward prospects are looking like CAREER 2nd or 3rd liners," Now you say that you're happy with Mantha, Larkin etc. as "a core for the youth movement, honestly." That is a contradiction unless you're happy with a future team core that you think won't be anything more than 2nd and 3rd liners.

And you said the "the well is dry" and now you say you're about our young forward group that you're "happy with that as a core for the youth movement, honestly." That is a contradiction.

I think a lot of people put down our players when the context is "Has Holland done a good job of acquiring young talent". But when the context is purely about the skill our our players and has nothing to do with Holland, the narrative changes and becomes much more positive.

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5 hours ago, GoalieManPat said:

I dont think thats very accurate to say his production would be very high for a long time. Concussions may have ended his career but his laziness started well before that. It had more to do with Long Term Contract Syndrome than it did Post Concussion Syndrome. Franzen wouldn't just disappear at times. That happens to every player. The problem was when he was invisible he really never played like he was trying to play himself out of that rut. He would just loaf around. He said on more than one occasion he found it hard to motivate himself to play during the regular season and that was on a good team. As this roster decayed how do you think that motivation would have been on a bad team? When criticized about his lack of scoring he would just say that he wasnt paid to be a scorer when in fact that was exactly what he was being paid for. I feel its safe to say that if Franzen was still playing today he would be viewed as another under-performing old player blocking a younger guy from getting a shot.

All I can say is this, Franzen suffered his first diagnosed concussion at the NHL level (who knows how many prior) on December 14th 2006. The NHL was different with its treatment of concussions back then, guys returned to early, and often missed zero time unless it was a major concussion. (anyone remember when Havlat returned for the Hawks against us in the playoffs a game after Kronwall rocked him and he couldn't walk)

Given how bad Franzen is now, I think its safe to say he suffered a lot of concussions in the span of 2006-2015, and likely a lot of undiagnosed concussions. To say that his spells of completely disappearing were simply "Long Term Contract Syndrome" is 100% speculation on your part and IMO very dismissive of the seriousness of concussions. With that being said, I cant prove you wrong, the only person who could is Franzen himself, but even then you could just not believe him. So long story short, there is now way to prove this one way or another.

I am basing my opinion on probability. Given how many concussion Franzen has had, and given the symptoms of Post Concussion Syndrome, I don't believe it is far fetched to come to my conclusion that his change in play was a result of repetitive brain injury. You bring up lack of motivation, you know that is symptom right? This stuff really messes with your head. Lack of motivation, depression, lethargy etc. are all things that result from concussions. I will stick to my guns when I say that if Franzen never suffered a concussion in the NHL, he would have likely produced at a high level for a long time. For the record though, when I say high level, I don't mean the level of a Crosby, Kane, Ovie etc. I mean at a high level for an excellent top 6 forward.

 

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