The MANtha watch.....

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

17 hours ago, kliq said:

All I can say is this, Franzen suffered his first diagnosed concussion at the NHL level (who knows how many prior) on December 14th 2006. The NHL was different with its treatment of concussions back then, guys returned to early, and often missed zero time unless it was a major concussion. (anyone remember when Havlat returned for the Hawks against us in the playoffs a game after Kronwall rocked him and he couldn't walk)

Given how bad Franzen is now, I think its safe to say he suffered a lot of concussions in the span of 2006-2015, and likely a lot of undiagnosed concussions. To say that his spells of completely disappearing were simply "Long Term Contract Syndrome" is 100% speculation on your part and IMO very dismissive of the seriousness of concussions. With that being said, I cant prove you wrong, the only person who could is Franzen himself, but even then you could just not believe him. So long story short, there is now way to prove this one way or another.

I am basing my opinion on probability. Given how many concussion Franzen has had, and given the symptoms of Post Concussion Syndrome, I don't believe it is far fetched to come to my conclusion that his change in play was a result of repetitive brain injury. You bring up lack of motivation, you know that is symptom right? This stuff really messes with your head. Lack of motivation, depression, lethargy etc. are all things that result from concussions. I will stick to my guns when I say that if Franzen never suffered a concussion in the NHL, he would have likely produced at a high level for a long time. For the record though, when I say high level, I don't mean the level of a Crosby, Kane, Ovie etc. I mean at a high level for an excellent top 6 forward.

 

Probably would have got 40 goals

[kliq 3,755]

5 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Probably would have got 40 goals

I tend to agree, but statistically I cant back that.

[Buppy 1,720]

On 12/6/2016 at 9:09 PM, kliq said:

All I can say is this, Franzen suffered his first diagnosed concussion at the NHL level (who knows how many prior) on December 14th 2006. The NHL was different with its treatment of concussions back then, guys returned to early, and often missed zero time unless it was a major concussion. (anyone remember when Havlat returned for the Hawks against us in the playoffs a game after Kronwall rocked him and he couldn't walk)

Given how bad Franzen is now, I think its safe to say he suffered a lot of concussions in the span of 2006-2015, and likely a lot of undiagnosed concussions. To say that his spells of completely disappearing were simply "Long Term Contract Syndrome" is 100% speculation on your part and IMO very dismissive of the seriousness of concussions. With that being said, I cant prove you wrong, the only person who could is Franzen himself, but even then you could just not believe him. So long story short, there is now way to prove this one way or another.

I am basing my opinion on probability. Given how many concussion Franzen has had, and given the symptoms of Post Concussion Syndrome, I don't believe it is far fetched to come to my conclusion that his change in play was a result of repetitive brain injury. You bring up lack of motivation, you know that is symptom right? This stuff really messes with your head. Lack of motivation, depression, lethargy etc. are all things that result from concussions. I will stick to my guns when I say that if Franzen never suffered a concussion in the NHL, he would have likely produced at a high level for a long time. For the record though, when I say high level, I don't mean the level of a Crosby, Kane, Ovie etc. I mean at a high level for an excellent top 6 forward.

Beyond all that, his "spells of completely disappearing" are very much overblown. From his breakout year in 07-08 through the 12-13 season he was actually very consistent (for a hockey player at least). Really only had one big goal slump, and no major point slumps. Even smaller "droughts" like 6-ish games were pretty rare, maybe a couple a year, which is normal for all but the very best scorers (and not that rare even for them). In 13-14 he had a slow start, but was fine after that until the concussion. After that concussion he wasn't the same. 6 goals in his first 5 games back, but then only 8 in the 58 games he played afterward.

I don't think he'd have been a 40g player, since he was aging anyway, but probably would have stayed around 30-ish for a couple years and still 20-ish today.

[chaps80 1,591]

No one has hit 40 goals in a season in Detroit since Hossa in 2008-'09. That was 7, going on 8 years ago now. Long time. Most since was 29 by Franzen in  '2011-'12 and Tatar in 2014-'15. That's pretty damn bad.

[kliq 3,755]

13 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

No one has hit 40 goals in a season in Detroit since Hossa in 2008-'09. That was 7, going on 8 years ago now. Long time. Most since was 29 by Franzen in  '2011-'12 and Tatar in 2014-'15. That's pretty damn bad.

That really means nothing. Its more important to have a team of guys that can score then having one 40 goal scorer. Look at our Hall of Fame Team in 2002, nobody hit 40 goals, but I dont think we had any issues scoring as we ranked 2nd in goals per game.

I realize goal scoring is an issue right now, but even when you have elite guys, they dont necessarily hit 40 goals. In the entire NHL last year, only 4 guys hit 40, and only 24 others got 30.

[chaps80 1,591]

12 minutes ago, kliq said:

That really means nothing. Its more important to have a team of guys that can score then having one 40 goal scorer. Look at our Hall of Fame Team in 2002, nobody hit 40 goals, but I dont think we had any issues scoring as we ranked 2nd in goals per game.

I realize goal scoring is an issue right now, but even when you have elite guys, they dont necessarily hit 40 goals. In the entire NHL last year, only 4 guys hit 40, and only 24 others got 30.

I wasn't only talking about Hossa, I should have expanded on that. Other guys on the team were scoring alot more goals the season when Hossa hit that mark too. Dats, Z, and Mule all had over 30. Hudler had 23, Samuelsson 19, and 5 others had 10 or over. Z had 43 the year before. And yes, the 2002 team leader was Shanny with 37. Fedorov had 31, and Hull and Robitaille had 30 each. Then a few in the mid-low teens and a bunch with 9, 8, 5, etc. Everyone was chipping in.

Last season Larkin lead with 23. Only one other player hit over 20, which was Tatar with 21. Then Abby with 19 and 6 others with 10 or more. Goal scoring is a huge issue right now. We are missing those 4 top guys. Our scoring leaders only hit secondary marks.

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 hour ago, chaps80 said:

No one has hit 40 goals in a season in Detroit since Hossa in 2008-'09. That was 7, going on 8 years ago now. Long time. Most since was 29 by Franzen in  '2011-'12 and Tatar in 2014-'15. That's pretty damn bad.

 

How many players in the league even hit at least 40 in a season anymore? I feel like it's a number you can count on one hand. 

31 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

I wasn't only talking about Hossa, I should have expanded on that. Other guys on the team were scoring alot more goals the season when Hossa hit that mark too. Dats, Z, and Mule all had over 30. Hudler had 23, Samuelsson 19, and 5 others had 10 or over. Z had 43 the year before. And yes, the 2002 team leader was Shanny with 37. Fedorov had 31, and Hull and Robitaille had 30 each. Then a few in the mid-low teens and a bunch with 9, 8, 5, etc. Everyone was chipping in.

Last season Larkin lead with 23. Only one other player hit over 20, which was Tatar with 21. Then Abby with 19 and 6 others with 10 or more. Goal scoring is a huge issue right now. We are missing those 4 top guys. Our scoring leaders only hit secondary marks.

 

Our forwards would score more if the team had a competent defense to get the puck up the ice. 

[kliq 3,755]

1 minute ago, marcaractac said:

How many players in the league even hit at least 40 in a season anymore? I feel like it's a number you can count on one hand. 

You're right.....last season it was 4.

[chaps80 1,591]

32 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

How many players in the league even hit at least 40 in a season anymore? I feel like it's a number you can count on one hand. 

Our forwards would score more if the team had a competent defense to get the puck up the ice. 

Haha yes, they probably would. It's bad when Z leads the team at age 36 and half of his former self.

[marcaractac 3,963]

9 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

Haha yes, they probably would. It's bad when Z leads the team at age 36 and half of his former self.

 

 

Hank can still do what he does because he is such a smart player. Younger guys just have learning to do. This is why I dislike seeing Larkin playing wing. The kid really needs to learn center at this level because Hank won't be able to do what he is doing much longer. 

Edited December 10, 2016 by marcaractac

[kickazz 5,459]

To be honest, aside from taking faceoffs, the Winger/Center position has become one and the same that last 8 years or so. 

Edited December 10, 2016 by kickazz

[Echolalia 2,961]

24 minutes ago, kickazz said:

To be honest, aside from taking faceoffs, the Winger/Center position has become one and the same that last 8 years or so. 

This.  Forwards cycle in the offensive zone, and the "center" on defense is most often the first guy back, who's typically the highest guy in the o-zone whenever the puck is turned over.   That and Blashill has the team playing such a tight collapse in our end that all five players are essentially crease clearers at this point.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

On Wednesday, December 07, 2016 at 2:40 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Probably would have got 40 goals

I feel it never would've happened.

Edited December 10, 2016 by LeftWinger

[kliq 3,755]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

I feel it never would've happened.

If he had never suffered a single concussion, do you think he could have done it once?

[LeftWinger 4,953]

I guess we'll never know. I'll swallow some of my dispise for him and say, he may have. Only because all we have is speculation. Would've been nice for him to do so after we couldn't keep an actual 40 goals scorer in Hossa.

Edited December 11, 2016 by LeftWinger

[kickazz 5,459]

7 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

I guess we'll never know. I'll swallow some of my dispise for him and say, he may have. Only because all we have is speculation. Would've been nice for him to do so after we couldn't keep an actual 40 goals scorer in Hossa.

Would've been nice for Hossa HIMSELF to do so after we couldn't keep him 

[The Datsyukian Deke 127]

I think we're not going to find progress until we find a coach who actually plays the available players to their strength in the roles they fill into. I'm about to throw up everytime I see Glenny play 2nd line winger. That's just ridiculous, as it was all those years with Babs using Helm there (or even on the top line..). All those wasted years of Dats having such tremendous scoring talent next to him..

Mantha is great right now, because he is used the right way...next to a set-up guy like Zetterberg.

[chaps80 1,591]

6 hours ago, kliq said:

If he had never suffered a single concussion, do you think he could have done it once?

Possibly. Since he came into his own during the Cup season of 2007-08, he hit 34, 29, 28, and 27 goals in the seasons where played in most of the games. Had he been completely healthy his whole career, it's not unreasonable to think he could have hit 40 at least once.

3 hours ago, kickazz said:

Would've been nice for Hossa HIMSELF to do so after we couldn't keep him 

He didn't need to once he signed in Chicago. With Toews and Kane there, the spotlight isn't on him, so he can slip under the radar and kind of chill and do what he wants. lol

Plus he's playing on a 10 year deal. He gets paid no matter what he does. In Detroit it was a one year deal, so he had to perform.

Edited December 11, 2016 by chaps80

[Richdg 267]

On 12/9/2016 at 10:59 PM, marcaractac said:

How many players in the league even hit at least 40 in a season anymore? I feel like it's a number you can count on one hand. 

Our forwards would score more if the team had a competent defense to get the puck up the ice. 

Its not the D's fault that our F's can't score. Yes the D can help create more shots, but the F's still need to bury the puck. Sheahan has a 0% shooting %. Glendening is 2.8%, Tatar is 6.5, Nyquist is 7.8%, all of which are way to low. A good scoring F is typically around 10-12%. Z for example has a career scoring % of 10%.

But then again we don't go to the dirty areas to score.

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

13 hours ago, The Datsyukian Deke said:

I think we're not going to find progress until we find a coach who actually plays the available players to their strength in the roles they fill into. I'm about to throw up everytime I see Glenny play 2nd line winger. That's just ridiculous, as it was all those years with Babs using Helm there (or even on the top line..). All those wasted years of Dats having such tremendous scoring talent next to him..

Mantha is great right now, because he is used the right way...next to a set-up guy like Zetterberg.

It's way more ridiculous than using Helm up there. At least Helm can score occasionally. Glendenning is literally an offensive anchor, and his defensive play isn't so amazing that it somehow makes up for it.

[Richdg 267]

43 minutes ago, Wheelchairsuperhero said:

It's way more ridiculous than using Helm up there. At least Helm can score occasionally. Glendenning is literally an offensive anchor, and his defensive play isn't so amazing that it somehow makes up for it.

They are both checkers and nothing more. Neither should ever be getting top 6 minutes and maybe not even top 9. Put the 2 of them on the 4th line with Ott/Lil bert and leave it alone. That is were they belong and are useful players.

[Buppy 1,720]

2 hours ago, Richdg said:

They are both checkers and nothing more. Neither should ever be getting top 6 minutes and maybe not even top 9. Put the 2 of them on the 4th line with Ott/Lil bert and leave it alone. That is were they belong and are useful players.

Helm's a solid 3rd-liner, and even Glendening wouldn't be awful. While Glendening should be on the 4th line when we're healthy, we haven't been healthy.

With Helm, Abby, and AA out, having Glen in a top 6/9 complimentary role is fine. Especially with how bad Sheahan has been. Now that AA is back, maybe he should be moved back. Looks like maybe we're trying to get all 4 lines to have some scoring threat. Worth a try (and something many have advocated), and it's not like anything else we've tried has been hugely successful. Jurco and Sheahan aren't exactly great scorers, or even much better than Glendening (and Jurco is arguably worse). 

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

22 hours ago, Richdg said:

They are both checkers and nothing more. Neither should ever be getting top 6 minutes and maybe not even top 9. Put the 2 of them on the 4th line with Ott/Lil bert and leave it alone. That is were they belong and are useful players.

I agree that ideally, neither should be in the top six. Helm is, however, more than a checker in my opinion, and is optimally used on the 3rd line. He looked great this year before going down.

[The Datsyukian Deke 127]

Because Nyquist - Helm - Vanek has been clicking and been or best line combination so far this season, I'd bring that back when Helm is healthy again. Give him 4-5 games on the 4th line to get his wheels back, and then try that line again. Unless we find a working combination on the first 3 lines in the meantime....haha..

Right now I would go with

Tatar - Zetterberg - Mantha

Nyquist - Nielsen - AA

Jurco - Larkin - Vanek

Ott - Glendening - Sheahan

because Sheahan in his current form is a waste of minutes...if everyone was healthy, I would bench him...ok, might still be more useful than Ott and Miller, but that's about it.

For the rest of the lines...AA is too talented too get wasted anywhere below 3rd line and I think that 2nd line could click, and with the slump Sheahan is in, having him center the 3rd hurts that line..put Larkin there. And for Jurco..play him 3rd or 2nd or don't play, but stop that nonsense of trying to make the guy a 4th line checker...that's just not him and will never be. I'd rather like to see the guy traded for a future draft pick than watching this crap anymore...

[The Datsyukian Deke 127]

I completely dislike Larkin on the PP so far. If we want the % to go up, I don't know if having him on first PP is a good idea...

Kid shines in 5 on 5 because of his speed, but the whole PP structure...not his thing so far, takes too much risk too often, losing possession too often...