How can so many things be bad?

[Joe S 11]

I do not claim to be a hockey expert, so I would invite those that know more about it than me to correct me if I am wrong. Here are my impressions of the Red Wings:

1) It should come as no surprise that the Wings can't score. When they get the puck, if they manage to clear the D zone, they do NOT drive to the net or take a shot, they dump the puck to the corner and surrender possession about 75% of the time. They went from the best puck possession team to the worst puck possession team. I have to believe they are coached to do so, because that is what they consistently do.

2) They have NO passing game whatsoever. Cannot make two clean passes in a row, most possessions are short lived and end up with a botched pass and possession to the opponent. A lot of blind passes to no one in particular which end up on the opponent's stick, often in front of our goalie.

3)  No speed or quickness. A few years ago the team did not have speed. Now they have some players with real speed but they don't play with speed. When we get the puck we are immediately pressured by the opponent with no room to maneuver. When the opponent gets the puck they sail into our end unimpeded.

4) Cannot win puck battles on the boards.

5) The Wings give the opponents more space than any other team, letting them maneuver or pass at will.

6) Consistently melt down late in the game. This is a carryover from the last few years under Babcock. Cannot put an opponent away in a close game.

7) We probably have the two best goalies in the game, who are getting  no support whatsoever from the defense or offense.

8) The power play is inept, to the point the wings should decline any penalty if that were possible and forget the power play. It only results in embarrassing short-handed chances for the other team.

I can accept the fact that due to making the playoffs for 25 years in a row we are not getting the upper level draft picks, but I no not think the player talent is as bad as their performance indicates. (However, I do believe you are only as good as you play) Either the team is grossly underperforming or they have the most mediocre talent or lack of talent in the league.  I believe the team is grossly underperforming and the blame has to fall on the coaching staff.

It is possible that they will gradually get their act together and have a strong finish.(Pittsburg started out pretty bad last year if I remember right), but now I am starting to think that is just wishful thinking.

Let me know what you think.

Joe S

 

 

[kliq 3,755]

When I first read this thread title, my initial thoughts were "here we go again, another poster about to go on a rant spouting out hyperbole" but after reading what you wrote, I think you made a lot of good points.

Here are my thoughts:

1) I agree with this. For whatever reason they cannot clear the puck out of the zone, and when they are able to rush into the opposing zone, they do continue to dump and chase quite often which just results in giving the puck up. I do not get why they continue to do this, I cant see this being anything but a coaching issue.

2) I agree with this as well, chemistry is definitely a problem.

3)  This I disagree with. When everyone is healthy I think this is one of out strong suits, but with AA and Helm both out I admit we look like a much slower team

4) I dont think we are great here, but I dont think we are awful. It would be interesting to see the stats.

5) I agree with this as well, especially on the PK. So often I am thinking to myself 5 on 5 "are we on the PK? Where is the pressure?"

6) This is probably our worst trait, I think we may lead the league in 3rd period, final 2min breakdowns.

7) Agreed

8) This I disagree with. Our PP ranks 17th in the league at 15.9%, that's not inept, its average.

I also completely agree with your last thought. We don't have elite talent, but we are not as bad as we are playing as we do have a very deep team. I think our issue is either coaching, or team chemistry which can be argued is a result of bad coaching.

[Wingnut1989 165]

I just see a lack of effort and players just throwing the puck away and no one there to win a battle for it.

 

If our speed game isnt working/skating their is no game for us.

 

But i put most the blame on Holland on the players he drafted and the team hes built. Year after year our needs are never met. its gotten stale and old here in Detroit. It eventually adds up and here we are digging a hole.

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

Coaching. Also, honestly that passing point you made I think is a big one. I watch a lot of NHL games and it always looks to me like the Wings are one of the worst passing teams in the league. I don't know if I'm just being hyper critical of "my" team, but that's how it always seems.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

They Continue to dump and chase because, hey, it works in practice against our own D, so it's got to work for real, yes? NO! Our D is inept and my gramma can dump the puck in against them and recover it in the corner! And she's deceased!

It's all about pretty much everything you said, but blame has to go on Holland as much if not more as it does on coaching. 

[lwing 68]

How can so many things be bad? A great question, but the answer is ultimately simple. Years and years of a failed (or non existent) strategy by management. No vision, no willingness to take risks, no ability to make deals, no accountability, no plan for young player development... coupled with endless excuses on why nothing else can be done and to expect mediocrity. You reap what you sow and in this case we have sown nothing. The buck stops nowhere. The playoff streak will end this year and with that little bandaid ripped off, perhaps ownership will finally have the smarts to dump Blashill and Holland and then pick up the mess they have left us.  

[Echolalia 2,961]

I would like to add that our players have adapted a very aggressive swarm, almost to the point of peewee nonpositional hockey, easily countered with one pass.

Thats either players not trusting one another or poor coaching.

[Dabura 12,207]

we get da puck
and then we dump da puck
and then we chase da puck
and then we don't get da puck
and then we get da puck
and then we dump da puck
and then we chase da puck
and then we don't get da puck
and then we get da puck
and then we dump da puck
and then we chase da puck
and then we don't get da puck
and this goes on for a while and then we lose da game

Edited November 22, 2016 by Dabura

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

3 hours ago, F.Michael said:

For years all we've heard from Ken Holland & Co how 'great' our prospects are, and there's this image from around the league that Detroit doesn't need to 'blow it up', and start over, but instead we develop our own talent.

Now there's some truth to that - the Wings are capable of drafting players, and getting them to the NHL level, but they're painfully average NHL calibre players at best.

As I mentioned in another thread - it's been noted that teams that are not in the top 8 of their conference by the end of the Thanksgiving weekend usually don't make the playoffs the following spring...Unless some changes are made, and/or this team doesn't pick their game up - they aren't gonna be in the 2017 playoffs.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/2015/11/27/nhl-playoff-standings-thanksgiving/76460834/

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/out-of-the-playoffs-december-1-done-like-thanksgiving-dinner

 

I blame the people on this forum for constantly telling us for years how great our prospects are.  As I don't watch GR, I bought into it thinking that those posters must have some knowledge about players.  I also falsely assumed the people running this team must know what they're doing.  

Unfortunately, I can see now that most of these prospects are nothing more than lower line jobbers.  

Edited November 22, 2016 by GMRwings1983

[Jacksoni 418]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

we get da puck
and then we dump da puck
and then we chase da puck
and then we don't get da puck
and then we get da puck
and then we dump da puck
and then we chase da puck
and then we don't get da puck
and then we get da puck
and then we dump da puck
and then we chase da puck
and then we don't get da puck
and this goes on for a while and then we lose da game

I like your little tune there. You're right. The deal is, if you gonna squeeze the defense for the puck on the dump in, you need speed to reach the defense, then you need to ensure that pain will be delivered, or at the least the notion of pain.

Our quicksters are feathers waving with their little magic wands hoping to steal the puck gently. Does not work that way. As a defenseman I would be tempted hitting Tatar or Helm on the forecheck during the passing motion. Hit or not, I'm trying to make the same point your doodle does. It almost looks like the forecheck is for show.

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

2 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

I like your little tune there. You're right. The deal is, if you gonna squeeze the defense for the puck on the dump in, you need speed to reach the defense, then you need to ensure that pain will be delivered, or at the least the notion of pain.

Our quicksters are feathers waving with their little magic wands hoping to steal the puck gently. Does not work that way. As a defenseman I would be tempted hitting Tatar or Helm on the forecheck during the passing motion. Hit or not, I'm trying to make the same point your doodle does. It almost looks like the forecheck is for show.

This!!

 

[Wingnut1989 165]

2 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

I like your little tune there. You're right. The deal is, if you gonna squeeze the defense for the puck on the dump in, you need speed to reach the defense, then you need to ensure that pain will be delivered, or at the least the notion of pain.

Our quicksters are feathers waving with their little magic wands hoping to steal the puck gently. Does not work that way. As a defenseman I would be tempted hitting Tatar or Helm on the forecheck during the passing motion. Hit or not, I'm trying to make the same point your doodle does. It almost looks like the forecheck is for show.

I always see one of our speedsters fly in like their gonna forecheck but nope they dont even hit, they just turn around in a failed attempt.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

3 hours ago, Dabura said:

we get da puck
and then we dump da puck
and then we chase da puck
and then we don't get da puck
and then we get da puck
and then we dump da puck
and then we chase da puck
and then we don't get da puck
and then we get da puck
and then we dump da puck
and then we chase da puck
and then we don't get da puck
and this goes on for a while and then we lose da game

This fits if you sing it to that tubthumping song:

and then we dump da puck

and then we chase da puck

we sing the songs that remind me of the good times...

You all can judge whether the "I get knocked down, but I get up again" chorus is appropriate. I guess we'll see as season goes on.

[Z and D for the C 712]

7 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

We are missing all 3 first line players on a legitimate 1st line.  No Crosby/Kopitar, no Kessel/Carter, no Malkin/Gaborik.  And yes, we are missing a top defensive pairing.  No Doughty/Letang, no Martinez/Niskanen.  We need better players.  It's that simple.

Everything you say is 100% true, however that doesn't explain anything from OP's post. We can't pass, we can't win a puck battle, we can't skate the puck through the neutral zone. These are things our team should be able to do even though we don't have superstar level talent anymore.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Z and D for the C

[marcaractac 3,962]

15 hours ago, Z and D for the C said:

Everything you say is 100% true, however that doesn't explain anything from OP's post. We can't pass, we can't win a puck battle, we can't skate the puck through the neutral zone. These are things our team should be able to do even though we don't have superstar level talent anymore.

 

 

The wheels are falling off. Confidence is also a big thing in hockey, and this team currently has zero. It's a hard thing to get back too. Very similar to the Leafs in 2014-15. That roster was nowhere near as bad as they played, but things just went south quickly.

Considering how Holland has been running this team as of late, the wheels falling off is the best thing that could possibly happen. A blessing in disguise.  

Edited November 23, 2016 by marcaractac

[kliq 3,755]

I'm not going to sit here and say thing will turn around because I don't know if they will. But at the same time, less then 20 games into an 82 game season is way to early to be definitive about anything. At this time last year the Pens were not even in the playoffs. Now do we have elite talent and are we going to win the cup? Of course not, but my point is its early.

I wonder if Holland fires Blashill though? That streak is important to ownership, and if they feel the season is slipping away that is the one BIG move they have left outside of a huge trade. I think a coaching change would make more immediate impact though then a trade. Who know's....we'll see.

[Buppy 1,720]

Reading this thread you'd think we were 0-19 and been shut out every game.

 

[marcaractac 3,962]

2 hours ago, kliq said:

I'm not going to sit here and say thing will turn around because I don't know if they will. But at the same time, less then 20 games into an 82 game season is way to early to be definitive about anything. At this time last year the Pens were not even in the playoffs. Now do we have elite talent and are we going to win the cup? Of course not, but my point is its early.

I wonder if Holland fires Blashill though? That streak is important to ownership, and if they feel the season is slipping away that is the one BIG move they have left outside of a huge trade. I think a coaching change would make more immediate impact though then a trade. Who know's....we'll see.

 

 

25% of the season is a pretty sizable chunk. We're far enough into the season now to get an idea of what all the teams are. But I mean, look at the Pens roster. Then look at our roster. They along with Anaheim had a slow start, but even then there was no doubt they'd both be in the playoffs when the time came. While it is early, a whole lot has to change if this Wings team is gonna do much of anything. The roster isn't good, and a quarter of the way through the season, they are playing even worse.

Defense and center are the most important positions of the game. This team has zero high-end players in either. That is why they can't win face-offs. That is why they are always chasing the puck. That is why they look absolutely overwhelmed for large portions of each game. 

We're stacked in secondary scoring. We just don't have any primary scoring. Tatar and Nyquist's production went down right along with Datsyuk and Zetterberg's decline. Larkin and AA may very well become legit top 6 centers in time. But until then, this is the new Red Wings hockey.  

[chaps80 1,591]

On 22/11/2016 at 8:42 AM, lwing said:

How can so many things be bad? A great question, but the answer is ultimately simple. Years and years of a failed (or non existent) strategy by management. No vision, no willingness to take risks, no ability to make deals, no accountability, no plan for young player development... coupled with endless excuses on why nothing else can be done and to expect mediocrity. You reap what you sow and in this case we have sown nothing. The buck stops nowhere. The playoff streak will end this year and with that little bandaid ripped off, perhaps ownership will finally have the smarts to dump Blashill and Holland and then pick up the mess they have left us.  

THIS.

The team is a huge mess in every area except for goaltending. And goaltending alone will not win you games. Well, not every night. Holland is a lazy f*** who rests on his laurels, and has assembled such a clusterf*** of a roster and seems determined to sticking with it, even though nothings working out. I hope they end up with a top 4 pick this year. Not only cause they desperately need it, but it will start the ice cracking under Holland and Blashill's feet. Holland won't be fired after this season if there's no playoffs, he'll get a couple seasons before that, but it's gonna be a move in that direction. Blashill is on much thinner ice though..he will get one more year maybe, but that should be it if there's no improvement.

4 hours ago, kliq said:

.

I wonder if Holland fires Blashill though? 

After Holland fires him, he should fire himself.

[Dabura 12,207]

On 11/22/2016 at 2:34 PM, Jacksoni said:

I like your little tune there. You're right. The deal is, if you gonna squeeze the defense for the puck on the dump in, you need speed to reach the defense, then you need to ensure that pain will be delivered, or at the least the notion of pain.

Our quicksters are feathers waving with their little magic wands hoping to steal the puck gently. Does not work that way. As a defenseman I would be tempted hitting Tatar or Helm on the forecheck during the passing motion. Hit or not, I'm trying to make the same point your doodle does. It almost looks like the forecheck is for show.

I mean, I don't think the pain element is necessarily all that important. But you do have to get to the puck and somehow come away with possession, and we definitely haven't been good enough in that area. Often, our forecheck does indeed look like an exercise in futility.

What really bothers me is the fact that we're playing dump-and-chase hockey in the first place. The team is clearly being coached to lean heavily on a tactic that doesn't seem to suit the team as a whole, doesn't seem to play to the team's strengths. Blashill has apparently decided that controlled zone entries are overrated and/or something this team isn't capable of executing effectively on a consistent enough basis and that our game should therefore be built around throwing the puck away and then trying to retrieve it.

Like, I get it. I get that we have some very good skaters and that it's easier to skate without the puck than it is with the puck. I get that we have a few gritty forwards who like to dump and chase, crash and bang. I get that on most nights the other team is going to be the more talented team. I get that there's this desire to cultivate a blue-collar, Made in Detroit/Murica, junkyard wolfpack identity.

But it's not working. Thus far, it's been self-defeating. We have enough trouble shooting and scoring even without gambling on 50/50 puck retrievals.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Dabura

[puckbags 863]

In it's best times over the last 25 years or so this team has always been about the quality of our D and their ability to move the puck.    We lost Rafalski and Lidstrom and they were never replaced ( # 5 can never be replaced ). Need to make moves, suck it up and trade some prospects and young guys to get a d man or two.  Need to change the culture of our D and we need to do it quick.  Green and DK have been good, Sproul is a breath of fresh air back there but Machenko, Ericsson, Smith and Kronwall with his 22% knees are not very good and can move on. If Kronwall is ok with playing 12-13 mins a night that's fine but he can't be in the 20 minute range anymore, its not possible.  Ericsson and Smith are the same guy pretty much and Marchenko is just treading water.  

[kliq 3,755]

3 hours ago, marcaractac said:

25% of the season is a pretty sizable chunk. We're far enough into the season now to get an idea of what all the teams are. But I mean, look at the Pens roster. Then look at our roster. They along with Anaheim had a slow start, but even then there was no doubt they'd both be in the playoffs when the time came. While it is early, a whole lot has to change if this Wings team is gonna do much of anything. The roster isn't good, and a quarter of the way through the season, they are playing even worse.

Defense and center are the most important positions of the game. This team has zero high-end players in either. That is why they can't win face-offs. That is why they are always chasing the puck. That is why they look absolutely overwhelmed for large portions of each game. 

We're stacked in secondary scoring. We just don't have any primary scoring. Tatar and Nyquist's production went down right along with Datsyuk and Zetterberg's decline. Larkin and AA may very well become legit top 6 centers in time. But until then, this is the new Red Wings hockey.  

I think people will only accept a small sample like that if it fits the narrative they believe to be true anyways. If we were sitting in 2nd place right now and someone said "we are a top team, 20 games proves it", the same posters that accept that sample size now when it fits their narrative, would be saying that 25 games is not enough.

I will remain consistent with what I said when we won 6 in a row, its too early to be sure of anything.

IMO we are an average team, better then we are now, worse then we were after the first 8 games.

13 minutes ago, puckbags said:

Ericsson and Smith are the same guy pretty much

Please explain this? These two are nothing alike in their style. The only thing they do that is similar is they both sometimes make bonehead decisions.

[puckbags 863]

4 minutes ago, kliq said:

I think people will only accept a small sample like that if it fits the narrative they believe to be true anyways. If we were sitting in 2nd place right now and someone said "we are a top team, 20 games proves it", the same posters that accept that sample size now when it fits their narrative, would be saying that 25 games is not enough.

I will remain consistent with what I said when we won 6 in a row, its too early to be sure of anything.

IMO we are an average team, better then we are now, worse then we were after the first 8 games.

Please explain this? These two are nothing alike in their style. The only thing they do that is similar is they both sometimes make bonehead decisions.

You nailed it, neither of them are very good.  Do either of them have a style? E plays with one hand on his stick most of the game and Smith has tried to change his style about 5 times and none of them have worked.  On a good team ( Chicago, NYR, Montreal) neither of those 2 would even sniff the ice.  I've always been an optimist around here but it has to change. Ericsson is terrible and Smith is confused. 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Ownership philosophy changes from Cup or Bust to just make the playoffs. GM signed too many players to contracts that are too long and too much money and who can't /won't make a meaningful trade. Prospects not panning out. Players playing roles they can't handle. Coaches turning pkayers into something they're not-Helm into a scorer, Jurco into a grinder, Smith pk only with no pp time, Mantha net front presence a la Homer. Piss poor coaching.

[kickazz 5,459]

 Just wait till we draft Nick Lidstrom's son