Fundamental shift in the way the game is played?

[grimace1970 81]

Something's been bothering me about the way this team has played in the last 3-5 years, and I'm wondering if it reflects a fundamental difference in the way players are being taught to play the game, a difference in how teams have to play now to be effective, if it's a comparative lack of skill on these Wings teams, or what exactly.  Two things: 1) we don't see the crisp, accurate passes in the O-zone (or anywhere really) that used to mess with other teams so completely, and related, 2) we're not seeing the puck possession that was such a hallmark of the team since the success of the 90s/early 00s.  With 82 Wings games to watch every season, I really haven't watched a significant number of non-Wings games to determine whether it is just this team or if the whole league works this way now.  I find myself every game yelling, "Pass it TO [insert name here], not TOWARD them!"   So not only is every shift is dump and chase, now it's pass and chase all the time. We gain possession in the zone, and almost immediately give it away. Why would anybody be surprised if this system produced fewer shots on goal (and therefore goals)? And I just can't imagine the coaches watching this game after game and not thinking, "Next practice, we're doing passing drills until these bone-heads can pass tape to tape.  And then we're going to do it some more."  I know the game is faster than it was in the 90s - we have kids like Larkin and AA flying across the ice.  But to work, this speed has to be combined with teamwork, as there are nearly always at least two opposition players back - relying on one-man breakaways almost completely for your goal scoring is crazy.  You need to be able to make those accurate passes to the second/third man in to discombobulate the opponent's coverage in the zone.  The only way to do that in my mind is to keep the puck moving - obviously in our possession. Keep the opposition so off-balance that they can't keep up.   And we just can't do that.  When we do get the puck back in the zone from a dump-in, we lose it to sloppy passing 1/2 the time (being generous here).  Do accurate passes just not work with speed anymore?  Were our 90s/00s teams just that much better than everybody else, and I shouldn't expect several players on a line with both speed and accurate passing?  I don't think it's speed on the other side that's completely disrupting this, because I've seen plenty of occasions every game where we pass toward an open guy and lose possession, because the pass was in his skates, or way off the mark.   And even if the speed of the opposition is a problem, why would coaches abandon passing accuracy as their primary skill to counter that in favor of scrums?  Constantly chasing puck possession in the zone and digging it out of scrums clearly isn't working for us.

OK, now I'm starting to rant, so let me stop.  Can someone enlighten me about why passing is such a problem now?  Is the game strategy just so different now that this isn't a seen as a major solution?  Are the coaches encouraging this constant dump/pass and chase approach to O-zone time - encouraging a constant "get the puck back" approach over a "keep possession of the puck" approach?  Help me understand this.  Maybe these games won't be as frustrating if I get it.

[kliq 3,755]

I'm sure some will post because of a lack of talent, but I dont buy that. While we may not have any elite players anymore, we still have a ton of secondary talent on this team. Its not like non elite players are not capable of having chemistry. Plenty of 2nd and 3rd lines in the NHL are capable of having a good passing game.

The first thing that strikes me is that we seem to change up the lines every game, or every other game. Look at the chemistry Z and Mantha have formed, it wasn't like that game 1. You need to let these guys play together and practice together for more then 1 or 2 games.

The only other thing I can think of is coaching. If players are being coached incorrectly and given poor direction, this is what happens. 

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Our defense is AHL level, talent wise.  Tape to tape passes and puck possession both start from the back end.  If your defense sucks, you can't do either of those things.  It's not a fundamental change in philosophy. We just don't have Lidstrom, Rafalski, Chelios, etc. anymore.  Kronwall is too old.  

Edited December 4, 2016 by GMRwings1983

[kliq 3,755]

32 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Our defense is AHL level, talent wise.  Tape to tape passes and puck possession both start from the back end.  If your defense sucks, you can't do either of those things.  It's not a fundamental change in philosophy. We just don't have Lidstrom, Rafalski, Chelios, etc. anymore.  Kronwall is too old.  

I dont even think this is true, we are just missing a top pairing. Throw say Keith/Seabrook on this team, then our second pairing is DD/Green, third pairing Sproul/Smith and I think we have a damn good d. Everyone is playing a pairing higher then they should.

[GoalieManPat 1,007]

1 hour ago, kliq said:

I'm sure some will post because of a lack of talent, but I dont buy that. While we may not have any elite players anymore, we still have a ton of secondary talent on this team. Its not like non elite players are not capable of having chemistry. Plenty of 2nd and 3rd lines in the NHL are capable of having a good passing game.

Ill disagree with the Wings having a ton secondary talent. Two years ago you could qualify Tatar and Nyquist as secondary talent guys. Now that neither can replicate those numbers so they are not secondary guys. Forgetting about the defense for a bit since we all know how badly they rate. The Wings have no forward in the top 50 NHL scorers and are in the bottom 3rd in team scoring. For me you have your "elite" players which is usually the top 20 and after that you have your true secondary talent. The team is full of 3rd and 4th line guys with a couple fringe/decent 2nd line players and then youth. Youth with potential no doubt but not anywhere near proven secondary talent. Sure Larkin looked like he could be a true top line player but that was mostly first half of last year Larkin. He hit the rookie wall and hasnt been able to get a resurgence in his play since. Nielsen has been playing better recently and is probably the closest thing the Wings have to a true secondary player. Vanek has been good but how much of that is contract year boost? To put it simply this team has no true top line NHL players and very little NHL secondary talent. The only position the WIngs have above average NHL talent is in goal.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Combination of poor coaching and lack of talent. No top end talent means secondary players playing roles they can't handle, third liners playing second line roles that they can't handle, etc. Blashill isn't an NHL coach, either. The team had absolutely no chemistry or coherent system.

[kliq 3,755]

19 minutes ago, GoalieManPat said:

Ill disagree with the Wings having a ton secondary talent. Two years ago you could qualify Tatar and Nyquist as secondary talent guys. Now that neither can replicate those numbers so they are not secondary guys. Forgetting about the defense for a bit since we all know how badly they rate. The Wings have no forward in the top 50 NHL scorers and are in the bottom 3rd in team scoring. For me you have your "elite" players which is usually the top 20 and after that you have your true secondary talent. The team is full of 3rd and 4th line guys with a couple fringe/decent 2nd line players and then youth. Youth with potential no doubt but not anywhere near proven secondary talent. Sure Larkin looked like he could be a true top line player but that was mostly first half of last year Larkin. He hit the rookie wall and hasnt been able to get a resurgence in his play since. Nielsen has been playing better recently and is probably the closest thing the Wings have to a true secondary player. Vanek has been good but how much of that is contract year boost? To put it simply this team has no true top line NHL players and very little NHL secondary talent. The only position the WIngs have above average NHL talent is in goal.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider acceptable numbers from secondary scorers? Nyquist has 14 points in 25 games this year, which puts him on pace to score 46 points this year. Obviously not elite, but I consider just shy of 50 points acceptable for a secondary scorer. Are you expecting 60 or 70 points out of secondary guys?

Tatar is hurt, he has nobody to blame but himself for not healing in the summer, but you cant use his production this year as a measure of his skill.

If we are a team filled with 3rd/4th liners, have the worst coach in the league (you didnt say this, but others have), have an awful GM, and have AA, Abby, Helm, Howard, Marchenko, Smith and Betuzzi hurt, I have a hard time understanding how we are only 4 points out of a playoff spot with TB having a game on hand. The answer, people exaggerate how bad we are. If all these things were true, we would be dead last in the standings.

I know we are not that good, I am not pretending we are something we are not, I am just sick of the hyperbole.

Our issues are simple, our top/elite guys all regressed simultaneously before our young guys were able to replace them. Put a prime/healthy Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, and Franzen on this team and we are contenders.

Edited December 4, 2016 by kliq

[GoalieManPat 1,007]

20 minutes ago, kliq said:

If we are a team filled with 3rd/4th liners, have the worst coach in the league (you didnt say this, but others have), have an awful GM, and have AA, Abby, Helm, Howard, Marchenko, Smith and Betuzzi hurt, I have a hard time understanding how we are only 4 points out of a playoff spot with TB having a game on hand. The answer, people exaggerate how bad we are. If all these things were true, we would be dead last in the standings.

Sure they are only 4 pts from a playoff. They are also only 3 pts (and barring the result of tonights game possibly less) ahead of the Islanders for last place in the conference. They are closer to being the worst team in the conference than a playoff team. A in prime Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kronwall, and Franzen would surely improve this team but those primes were 4-5 years ago so the point is moot. Besides they had those players with a better supporting cast and still weren't true contenders. The biggest reason this team is even sniffing near a playoff spot is because of goaltending. Mrazek was ok early and then Howard was amazing when he faltered a bit. Other than that the Wings are outshot, out possessioned, and generally out played in over 75% of the games this season.  Add in the parity in the league and the fact over half of the league makes the playoffs is their only hope. If both goaltenders games slip at the same time the Wings are a lottery team. They are right where a team full of 3rd and 4th liners and a bad coach are expected to be.

Edited December 4, 2016 by GoalieManPat

[kliq 3,755]

10 minutes ago, GoalieManPat said:

Sure they are only 4 pts from a playoff. They are also only 3 pts (and barring the result of tonights game possibly less) ahead of the Islanders for last place in the conference. They are closer to being the worst team in the conference than a playoff team. A in prime Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kronwall, and Franzen would surely improve this team but those primes were 4-5 years ago so the point is moot. Besides they had those players with a better supporting cast and still weren't true contenders. The biggest reason this team is even sniffing near a playoff spot is because of goaltending. Mrazek was ok early and then Howard was amazing when he faltered a bit. Other than that the Wings are outshot, out possessioned, and generally out played in over 75% of the games this season.  Add in the parity in the league and the fact over half of the league makes the playoffs is their only hope. If both goaltenders games slip at the same time the Wings are a lottery team. They are right where a team full of 3rd and 4th liners and a bad coach are expected to be.

You never answered my question, so I will ask again........ what do you consider acceptable numbers from secondary scorers?

The bold tells me you are missing my point, so I will say it again....Our issues are simple, our top/elite guys all regressed simultaneously before our young guys were able to replace them.

I don't understand your comments about those guys never being true contenders, when as the core of this team they won a cup and almost won 2. The only thing I can assume you are insinuating is "post Lidstrom" which would be 2013 on, but I dont think any of them were in their prime 2013 on.

[GoalieManPat 1,007]

3 minutes ago, kliq said:

You never answered my question, so I will ask again........ what do you consider acceptable numbers from secondary scorers?

The bold tells me you are missing my point, so I will say it again....Our issues are simple, our top/elite guys all regressed simultaneously before our young guys were able to replace them.

Yes I do expect secondary scorers to be able to put up 50. I agree with you that our issue is the top elite guys regressed before young guys were able to replace them. Saying so just proves my point that this team is void of top/secondary talent and isnt very good.

[kliq 3,755]

40 minutes ago, GoalieManPat said:

Yes I do expect secondary scorers to be able to put up 50. I agree with you that our issue is the top elite guys regressed before young guys were able to replace them. Saying so just proves my point that this team is void of top/secondary talent and isnt very good.

Other then the "secondary" part, I agree with you. I think Larkin, Vanek, Nyquist, Tatar, Zetterberg are all capable of scoring 50 points. The problem is we have nobody that will get close to 80-100 points. Our team is average.

[grimace1970 81]

So I'm hearing there may or may not be a talent component to the problem.  We definitely don't have a younger Zetterberg, Dats, Shanny, Feds, Lids, Vladdy, Professor, Cheli (although I doubt now that Cheli was ever actually young), ad nauseum anymore - any pair of whom would put the team on their shoulders on a rough night and win the game. It seems though, at least against us, a lot of teams are playing a dump and chase game now rather than emphasizing passing expertise.  Is this the approach for the majority of teams now, in the same way the trap became the way to handle the neutral zone for awhile?  Is it just the kind of game our system makes our opponent play?  I've always wondered what the extreme emphasis on forwards always playing both sides of the ice have done to scoring as well, but that's probably another discussion.  The game just seems to look and feel different now, and passes seem to me to be a fundamental component of what's changed.  I see these guys dumping in every play, where before a dump in was a last ditch resort.  And Kenny & Mick have mentioned the need for our guys to dig in the corners a lot more over the years, so I feel as if there is some change to the approach I might have missed.  If I was a better student of the game, I'd probably have a better answer.

Maybe I'm holding onto this idea just because it would represent a "simple" thing that could improve things if it was changed.  Because getting some new top three forwards and another couple of Lids reincarnations don't seem like a viable approach...

[grimace1970 81]

1 hour ago, kliq said:

The bold tells me you are missing my point, so I will say it again....Our issues are simple, our top/elite guys all regressed simultaneously before our young guys were able to replace them.

And if this is true, I'd think the coach would be emphasizing the crap out of passing in practice, to encourage the kids' skills to evolve.  Good passing is like the most fundamental part of the game (next to skating I guess).  I'd think I'd be seeing a better and better passing game over the last several years, and I haven't.  This is what makes me think the system might be a problem.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

So I'm hearing there may or may not be a talent component to the problem.  We definitely don't have a younger Zetterberg, Dats, Shanny, Feds, Lids, Vladdy, Professor, Cheli (although I doubt now that Cheli was ever actually young), ad nauseum anymore - any pair of whom would put the team on their shoulders on a rough night and win the game. It seems though, at least against us, a lot of teams are playing a dump and chase game now rather than emphasizing passing expertise.  Is this the approach for the majority of teams now, in the same way the trap became the way to handle the neutral zone for awhile?  Is it just the kind of game our system makes our opponent play?  I've always wondered what the extreme emphasis on forwards always playing both sides of the ice have done to scoring as well, but that's probably another discussion.  The game just seems to look and feel different now, and passes seem to me to be a fundamental component of what's changed.  I see these guys dumping in every play, where before a dump in was a last ditch resort.  And Kenny & Mick have mentioned the need for our guys to dig in the corners a lot more over the years, so I feel as if there is some change to the approach I might have missed.  If I was a better student of the game, I'd probably have a better answer.

Maybe I'm holding onto this idea just because it would represent a "simple" thing that could improve things if it was changed.  Because getting some new top three forwards and another couple of Lids reincarnations don't seem like a viable approach...

You need higher end skill to play possession hockey. They were able to do it because most of the players were good passers, including the D. Now they have a lot of guys who just can't play that style.

[grimace1970 81]

2 hours ago, GoalieManPat said:

Sure Larkin looked like he could be a true top line player but that was mostly first half of last year Larkin. He hit the rookie wall and hasnt been able to get a resurgence in his play since...

And I thought Gus was the second coming of Shanny there for awhile.  And that Pulki was the second coming of Hull.  And...and...and.  I guess none of the guys that have been these dream future players have necessarily gone on to become superstars, but I have to wonder about the role the system plays.  Are they being used in a way that lets them be a Shanny, or a Hull, and so on?

[Dabura 12,207]

This team does lack top-end talent -- but I don't think that fully accounts for this season's struggles. I think the Wings are compounding the talent problem by playing a stupid brand of hockey that 1) is inherently self-defeating and 2) doesn't suit the given personnel (making it that much more self-defeating, in this case).

We have very skilled players in Zetterberg, Nyquist, Tatar, Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou, Nielsen, Vanek, Jurco, Green...but Blashill clearly believes dump-and-chase is the way to go. We have a very suspect D group that has mobility issues and is prone to mental lapses in the d-zone...but Blashill clearly believes the most passive collapse defense ever employed by an NHL team is the way to go. We're dangerous on the rush, but the players are being conditioned to "just gain the red line with possession so you can dump the puck in, because we want to get to our skating game and be hard and fast on the forecheck."

I'm not saying the players themselves don't have to be better. I'm not saying our passing game has gone to hell because of the coaching staff and the coaching staff alone. (No team struggles with routine passes like this Wings team does.) But I feel like when you de-emphasize a team's fundamental strengths and coach the team to play like a team of scrubs, it shouldn't be a surprise when the team performs like a team of scrubs.

The Pens absolutely throttled the Wings last night. While, yes, there's a talent gap, there's also a systems/philosophy gap. When Mike Sullivan took over for Mike Johnston last season, he inherited a team that had been, essentially, neutered. Johnston was all about defending, winning games 2-1, playing "safe" and "responsible" hockey. Crosby wasn't scoring. No one was scoring. Sullivan said f*** that and flipped the script. He got the team to play a brand of hockey that puts the power in the players' hands, gives them greater control of their own fate.

The Penguins under Sullivan play an aggressive, possession-centric game that's designed to overpower the other team. They own the puck. It's incredibly difficult to put and keep them on the defensive for more than a moment or two at a time. They believe the best defense is a good offense. The more you have the puck, the more the other team has to defend. The more the other team has to defend, the less you have to defend. The less you have to defend, the better.

None of which is true of this Wings team (or, more accurately, the Wings' coaching staff. Or just Jeff Blashill.) The Wings are content to let the other team -- any and every team -- dictate the terms of the game. The Wings are content to withstand, endure, play without the puck and hope for the best. The Wings willingly give the opposition all kinds of time and space in the Wings' zone. The Wings are all-too-happy to dump (or pass-tip) the puck into the o-zone and get the opposition's breakout started for them. The Wings play self-defeating hockey. And it's killing them.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Dabura

[grimace1970 81]

59 minutes ago, Dabura said:

This team does lack top-end talent -- but I don't think that fully accounts for this season's struggles. I think the Wings are compounding the talent problem by playing a stupid brand of hockey that 1) is inherently self-defeating and 2) doesn't suit the given personnel (making it that much more self-defeating, in this case).<snip>

This seems to match what I think I've observed the past few years with this team.  I feel like part of it is Blash is continuing with Babs' game, and therefore several guys who play really good offensive hockey are squeezed - round-peg-square-hole - into a defense first, dump-and-chase type of game.  Maybe this is why so many guys have seemed like they were going to be huge, and fizzled.  But maybe everybody plays this way now, and if you can't learn to, you're going to have problems. It worked in the past, but now that everybody's doing it, we can't stand out.  I dunno. Probably not a clean answer to this question.  And I thought you guys were cool... 

[kliq 3,755]

Not to mention, when Blashill took over the entire roster went through a regression. I believe it was about 15%.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

This defense corps cannot play a puck possession game. But I agree that Bans and now Trashill like dumb simple hockey

[grimace1970 81]

"According to Corsica, the Red Wings are last in the league in five-on-five Corsi for per 60 minutes at 47.91 through their first 24 games, last in the NHL in Fenwick for per 60 (36.90) and 27th in shots for per 60 (27.74). Instead of shooting the puck and looking for second-chance opportunities, they generally opt to make a pass that either gets intercepted or leads to a turnover and loss of possession".

Wow.  Pretty good timing with this story, http://thehockeywriters.com/note-to-red-wings-shoot-more/.

[Richdg 267]

Top end talent or lack there of is a major issue. We have 0 players that other teams fear. be it because of the size or speed or skill. There is no one that the other team has to focus on and game plan for. You don't take top talent away and not develop issues. We would be a lot better if we had Stamkos, Crosby, Seabrooke, and Doughty on the team. So would ever team in the NHL. But that is the quality we have lost and not replaced. We haven't draft well over the last 10-12 years and it has caught up to us. The last 3-4 years that is starting to change but those guys are not yet ready for prime time.

 

[frankgrimes 1,836]

no number 1 defenseman , no number 1 center and nothing in the pipelines name me a coach that can develop a system under those circumstances which makes this team a contender? Babs did a fantastic job getting them into the playoffs but he still had Pasha which obviously helped.

Larkin, Mantha and AA are good talents Larkin has a lot of potential but I highly doubt he'll reach elite levels which would just be an unfair expectation.

What this team needs is elite talent and a ton of picks so they can increase the chance of finding a raw diamond. I agree other than Larkin drafting has been very bad the last few years, especially the Chychrun screwup. I just hope they are bad enough to get a really good pick something along the lines of Nolan to Foote would just be superb

[kliq 3,755]

8 hours ago, frankgrimes said:

no number 1 defenseman , no number 1 center and nothing in the pipelines name me a coach that can develop a system under those circumstances which makes this team a contender? Babs did a fantastic job getting them into the playoffs but he still had Pasha which obviously helped.

Larkin, Mantha and AA are good talents Larkin has a lot of potential but I highly doubt he'll reach elite levels which would just be an unfair expectation.

What this team needs is elite talent and a ton of picks so they can increase the chance of finding a raw diamond. I agree other than Larkin drafting has been very bad the last few years, especially the Chychrun screwup. I just hope they are bad enough to get a really good pick something along the lines of Nolan to Foote would just be superb

Nobody has said that another coach will make this team a contender. The criticism most have about Blashill is the way he is coaching, his win/loss record is actually not that bad sitting 2 points out of the playoffs. Are you even watching the games this year?

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Ya well then name me a better and available coach?

Options are Gallant, Hartley, Roy and oh yeah the former Edmonton coach.

Just for the record I would like Gallant as an assistant and advisor and if things go south with Blashill have him as a replacement because he really got wronged in Florida and the guy is not a bad coach.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

2 hours ago, frankgrimes said:

Ya well then name me a better and available coach?

Options are Gallant, Hartley, Roy and oh yeah the former Edmonton coach.

Just for the record I would like Gallant as an assistant and advisor and if things go south with Blashill have him as a replacement because he really got wronged in Florida and the guy is not a bad coach.

That's why teams name interim coaches.