No one loses but Red Wings

[Jacksoni 418]

15 hours ago, chaps80 said:

Well, the cap came into effect in 2005. Many predicted the Wings to be in the bottom of the league within a few years. It took 12, with two finals appearances and one Cup along the way. Not bad.

Agreed, not bad at all, rather the contrary. We have had our time in the sun. Given the rules, night is approaching for some time.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Players are worse under Blashill than Babcock, almost every one of them. If that doesn't tell you something about Blashill, I don't know what to tell you.

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[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Players are worse under Blashill than Babcock, almost every one of them. If that doesn't tell you something about Blashill, I don't know what to tell you.

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Yes, but does that mean Babcock was an amazing coach who was getting a lot out of average players and now average players are average under an average coach? Or is the roster ok and Blash just sucks?

[The Secret 304]

15 hours ago, frankgrimes said:

Well firing Blashill is like changing the tires of your car, it will improve the grip but unless the engine is changed the performance boost will be negligible.

So yeah first Holland and then if the new GM wants his own guy fire Blashill.

I'd go it the other way... give Blashill his walking papers today, hire a real coach, then promote Holland to something out of the GM's chair and get this team moving in the right direction FAST! There is waaaay more talent on this team then what is being shown on the ice... Not saying we are cup contenders but playing a much more competitive brand of hockey is not out of the question with what we have right now. Blashill is not ready and in turn this team is not ready.

4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Yes, but does that mean Babcock was an amazing coach who was getting a lot out of average players and now average players are average under an average coach? Or is the roster ok and Blash just sucks?

Blashill sucks AND Babcock was able to squeeze more out of almost every player on the team

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

57 minutes ago, The Secret said:

I'd go it the other way... give Blashill his walking papers today, hire a real coach, then promote Holland to something out of the GM's chair and get this team moving in the right direction FAST! There is waaaay more talent on this team then what is being shown on the ice... Not saying we are cup contenders but playing a much more competitive brand of hockey is not out of the question with what we have right now. Blashill is not ready and in turn this team is not ready.

Blashill sucks AND Babcock was able to squeeze more out of almost every player on the team

Well even if we replace blash its unlikely we will get a babs caliber coach. my point being blash may be pretty standard and the roster needs changing

[greenrebellion 415]

5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Well even if we replace blash its unlikely we will get a babs caliber coach. my point being blash may be pretty standard and the roster needs changing

I agree with this and I have stated something similar before.  I believe that any coach we transitioned to after Babcock was going to be a big let down.  Tough to follow up Babcock, who I believe is one of the greatest coaches of all time.  Blashill could merely be an average coach or a good coach, but it would still be a big dropoff from one of the best of all time.

[Jacksoni 418]

We have been blessed with proven, elite coaches 'lately' in Bowman and to some extent Babcock. Too big shoes to fill for any coach let alone a newcomer at the NHL level. It just is not possible.

I am still not sure if he is good or bad. Tricky thing and statistics can be made to point the wrong way, coming from someone with 1.5 semesters of the subject at college. Need more data.

Point is that we were expected to drop sharply because of an emptying roster and lesser quality coaching. Which one that bears the biggest blame I can't say, but I can say that the trend is real and will be ongoing unless something drastic happens, like drafting a Lidström carbon copy in the 3rd round and a Datsyuk in the 7th.

So in my opinion we need good drafting, lucky drafting, early drafting and most likely a coaching change once that bears fruit. We do have good scouts and with a little bit of luck we won't be on the downside for too long.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Yes, but does that mean Babcock was an amazing coach who was getting a lot out of average players and now average players are average under an average coach? Or is the roster ok and Blash just sucks?

A little of both

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[wingfan1991 221]

Once again tonight Buff vs isles and both get points! Caps vs Carolina and guess what yup... both get points! Nothing Wings can do this year.

[krsmith17 7,191]

12 hours ago, F.Michael said:

In response to the bold - I must agree.

Tatar/Nyquist/Sheahan/Abdelkader/Mantha/Glendening/DeKeyser/etc - pretty much a significant portion of this team are really nothing more than 3rd line forwards, or bottom pairing Dmen - especially when you compare what other teams have in their line up.

Sure - maybe Blashill isn't getting the most outta them, but then that's up to Holland to decide whether to make a coaching move, but as most of us know - that likely won't happen.

Why would you have Mantha in that group?...

[chaps80 1,591]

On 16/12/2016 at 9:19 AM, GMRwings1983 said:

 

That may be OK for most of the posters on this forum, but for the out of town fans (like myself), that drives us insane.  I could care less about the Tigers.  

I happen to be a Tigers fan myself, so i'd be happy with a WS for sure. Rather see the Wings win Cups though, but that's what happens when the team owner also owns a baseball team. He needs to decide where to pool the most resources depending which franchise is in the better position to win. Even then, right now he's at the cap with the Wings, so not much more he can do there. He's given Holland plenty to work with. Holland just screwed it up.

[kliq 3,755]

27 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

I happen to be a Tigers fan myself, so i'd be happy with a WS for sure. Rather see the Wings win Cups though, but that's what happens when the team owner also owns a baseball team. He needs to decide where to pool the most resources depending which franchise is in the better position to win. Even then, right now he's at the cap with the Wings, so not much more he can do there. He's given Holland plenty to work with. Holland just screwed it up.

I dont really get the argument that the Tigers are a reason for anything. Its not like he's spending less money on the Wings because he owns the Tigers. 

[chaps80 1,591]

1 hour ago, kliq said:

I dont really get the argument that the Tigers are a reason for anything. Its not like he's spending less money on the Wings because he owns the Tigers. 

No he's not spending less, but with the state of the franchise right now and being basement dwellers while at the cap, and how Illitch likes the The Streak and winning, you'd think he'd get fired up and tell Holland to start fixing s*** or his job is on the line. But all is quiet. So some think he's put the Wings on the backburner for the time being.

[kliq 3,755]

10 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

No he's not spending less, but with the state of the franchise right now and being basement dwellers while at the cap, and how Illitch likes the The Streak and winning, you'd think he'd get fired up and tell Holland to start fixing s*** or his job is on the line. But all is quiet. So some think he's put the Wings on the backburner for the time being.

Holland has 3 options. Wait for our kids to develop, keep making little moves to improve us a bit, tank/complete rebuild.

Which do you think the 87 year old Illitch would want?

[chaps80 1,591]

On December 16, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Jacksoni said:

Agreed, not bad at all, rather the contrary. We have had our time in the sun. Given the rules, night is approaching for some time.

Yep. It's pretty simple.

[Jacksoni 418]

5 hours ago, chaps80 said:

Yep. It's pretty simple.

At least the boys aren't going down without a fight. I like that. Zetterberg probably rounded up the team and amassed one last big push. Hopefully he was painfully candid, letting most players know that they likely won't see the NHL too much if they go down like this.

Let's see how long it holds, but last nights game against Anaheim was as hard as I have seen them play all season long.

[wingfan1991 221]

And Boston wins again ... never fails!

[chaps80 1,591]

9 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

At least the boys aren't going down without a fight. I like that. Zetterberg probably rounded up the team and amassed one last big push. Hopefully he was painfully candid, letting most players know that they likely won't see the NHL too much if they go down like this.

Let's see how long it holds, but last nights game against Anaheim was as hard as I have seen them play all season long.

I agree they played hard last night and got the win in a high scoring game, but we've seen these supposed "turning points" a few times already this season. Not long after they get back to the kinda play we saw against the Coyotes three games ago. They CAN get it done if they want and if Blashill isn't screwing s*** up, but they must play hard like that every night an have some luck as well. I dunno if they can do that, and they seem short on luck.

[kliq 3,755]

On 12/14/2016 at 10:14 PM, wingfan1991 said:

Crazy how every team wins or gets a point every night but the Wings... Ottawa and Boston both tied late in game and getting 1-2 its each tonight. Can never get a break!

 

1 hour ago, wingfan1991 said:

And Boston wins again ... never fails!

What are you talking about? You make it sound like the Wings get points in WAYYYY less games then everybody else, but when you compare them to the teams surrounding them in their own division, its pretty damn even.

*please note I am not saying the Wings are equal or not equal to any of the teams listed, my point is 100% in relation to the getting points in less games*

Detroit has played 32 games this year and gotten a point in 18 games

Boston has played 33 games this year and gotten a point in 20 games

Ottawa has played 31 games this year and gotten a point in 20 games

TB has played 32 games this year and gotten a point in 18 games

Florida has played 32 games this year and gotten a point in 19 games

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Need the Isles, Sabres, Canucks and Avs  to start winning because the top 5 picks will be between them and the Wings. But seems like the Avs will need a miracle to even move up 2 spots they are dead last in the entire league now,.

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, frankgrimes said:

Need the Isles, Sabres, Canucks and Avs  to start winning because the top 5 picks will be between them and the Wings. But seems like the Avs will need a miracle to even move up 2 spots they are dead last in the entire league now,.

Even if we got something outside of top 5, it would theoretically still be better than what we've gotten the last 10 years. 

Edited December 19, 2016 by kickazz

[kliq 3,755]

1 hour ago, frankgrimes said:

Need the Isles, Sabres, Canucks and Avs  to start winning because the top 5 picks will be between them and the Wings. But seems like the Avs will need a miracle to even move up 2 spots they are dead last in the entire league now,.

I have a very hard time cheering against my team. I get your logic, but I cant help but think that if we draft a player who ends up being a bust, how much of a waste an abysmal season is if that's the end result. Tanking scares me given how rarely it works.

I remember I used to get excited every time the Lions got a top 5 pick, but then after constant busts (Harrington, Rogers etc), and successes that still couldn't rid of the losing culture (Calvin, Stafford) I realized how drafting high guarantees nothing. It doesn't even guarantee becoming good let alone becoming a contender.

Imagine if the Wings decided to tear things up shortly after 2002, one could have easily created the argument that from 03-06 we only got out of the first round once and major changes needed to be made. You could have argued to trade Lidstrom for a top pick as his value was super high. Had Holland listened, 2008 never would have happened. Don't forget, at one point D and Z were looked down on just like Tatar and Nyquist are now. Not that Nyquist and Tatar will ever get to that level, but again hindsight being 20/20. 

Now I'm not saying our roster post 2008 is the same as our roster post 2002, my point is that it is easier to point fingers after the fact. When you are in the moment and the person actually calling the shots, its a lot harder then it looks especially if you are given a direction by your owner which I strongly believe is the case with Holland. I truly don't believe Holland could tank if he wanted to. We saw this already transpire with DD/Illitch a few years ago.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Just now, kliq said:

I have a very hard time cheering against my team. I get your logic, but I cant help but think that if we draft a player who ends up being a bust, how much of a waste an abysmal season is if that's the end result. Tanking scares me given how rarely it works.

I remember I used to get excited every time the Lions got a top 5 pick, but then after constant busts (Harrington, Rogers etc), and successes that still couldn't rid of the losing culture (Calvin, Stafford) I realized how drafting high guarantees nothing. It doesn't even guarantee becoming good let alone becoming a contender.

Imagine if the Wings decided to tear things up shortly after 2002, one could have easily created the argument that from 03-06 we only got out of the first round once and major changes needed to be made. You could have argued to trade Lidstrom for a top pick as his value was super high. Had Holland listened, 2008 never would have happened. Don't forget, at one point D and Z were looked down on just like Tatar and Nyquist are now. Not that Nyquist and Tatar will ever get to that level, but again hindsight being 20/20. 

Now I'm not saying our roster post 2008 is the same as our roster post 2002, my point is that it is easier to point fingers after the fact. When you are in the moment and the person actually calling the shots, its a lot harder then it looks especially if you are given a direction by your owner which I strongly believe is the case with Holland. I truly don't believe Holland could tank if he wanted to. We saw this already transpire with DD/Illitch a few years ago.

See that's the differense between us. Not that you are wrong you just have a different view on how to fix that team than I and some others do, which is more than ok because boards need discussions.

You may think I'm cheering against this team but I view it as cheering for this teams longterm success. Of course there are no guarantees but I'd rather take my chance with a guy like Patrick (alotugh that injury history...), Liljegren, Foote aso. knowing that the scouting stuff led by Hakan Anderson can do tremendous things than hoping another mid first rounder or even second rounder might turn out better than expected because we all know most of them won't see the NHL for at least 2 years. And that is too long given that Z and Kronner are on their last legs.

I don't honestly know what Holland wants or can do but the results so far are speaking for themselves, he is saying something and then does the other thing and is quick to blame everything and everyone but not himself.

52 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Even if we got something outside of top 5, it would theoretically still be better than what we've gotten the last 10 years. 

True that and I would be very(!) happy with a top 10 pick but of course getting a top 5 pick would be even better.

[kliq 3,755]

15 minutes ago, frankgrimes said:

See that's the differense between us. Not that you are wrong you just have a different view on how to fix that team than I and some others do, which is more than ok because boards need discussions.

You may think I'm cheering against this team but I view it as cheering for this teams longterm success. Of course there are no guarantees but I'd rather take my chance with a guy like Patrick (alotugh that injury history...), Liljegren, Foote aso. knowing that the scouting stuff led by Hakan Anderson can do tremendous things than hoping another mid first rounder or even second rounder might turn out better than expected because we all know most of them won't see the NHL for at least 2 years. And that is too long given that Z and Kronner are on their last legs.

I don't honestly know what Holland wants or can do but the results so far are speaking for themselves, he is saying something and then does the other thing and is quick to blame everything and everyone but not himself.

True that and I would be very(!) happy with a top 10 pick but of course getting a top 5 pick would be even better.

No I get it, its the end justify the means kind of thinking. I cant even say you are wrong, sure I dont agree but its just a case of both of us wanting the same thing, just thinking different paths are better to get there. 

I almost look at tanking in a similar fashion to spending all your money to play the lottery. If you win (ie. Edm/McDavid), Chi, LA etc. you are thrilled and become a millionaire (ie. Cup winner).

Though like the lottery, most people lose and the risk just leads to going broke (ie. Edmonton pre McDavid, Columbus, Atlanta/Win, Carolina etc.)

Even with Edmonton/McDavid, while I think he will be a HUGE difference maker, he doesn't guarantee them a cup.

Edited December 19, 2016 by kliq

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Am i the only one who thinks we should add at the deadline?