Who's to blame?

[kliq 3,755]

3 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Motivating words. But aren't you one of the "pro-tank it" people?

He is the person saying that he's wanted a tank job for 5 to 6 years, but he is also the person who wanted to give Luke Schenn 4 million per year in the off season.

[kickazz 5,459]

Well if that's true Rich, I don't get it. You're talking about how we're the best american franchise, how we should not compare ourselves to the rest because we're better than them. But you want us to sink to the level of crap and tankit??? What "best franchise" would sink to that level of defeat lol. If the franchise is as prideful as you want it to be then it makes more sense for it to go down fighting in a natural manner (like it basically has been). 

Edited December 18, 2016 by kickazz

[frankgrimes 1,836]

58 minutes ago, kickazz said:

No panic in Holland-ville

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2016/12/18/detroit-red-wings-ken-holland/95583534/

“First off, what is panic going to do?” Holland said. “Certainly we use the words ‘sense of urgency.’

Asked how much is on Wings coach Jeff Blashill to get the team going, Holland said: “I think it’s on everybody.

“It’s a hard league during the season, before the trade deadline, to make any moves. Not much going on.”

“Certainly most of our top issues have been offense. Power play is part of that.”

“We’re not the only team in this position in the league,” Holland said. “There are no quick fixes. ‘Let’s make a trade and that’s going to cure whatever ails you.’ That’s not the league we’re in. We’re not the only team in the boat that we’re talking about.”

It's a hard league Holland really? Everyone knows that you are paid the big bucks to work some magic that other (so called "lesser") GMs aren't able to pull of.

The Wings aren't the only team in this position? Right but the Wings are an Original 6 franchise used to be the class of this damn league.

To me these quotes show exactly why Holland isn't the right guy for a rebuild, he has no experience is in over his head and other this his usual kicking the tires, talking about the salary cap and other teams he is out of ideas. The sad thing he has handcuffed the new GM with lots of bad veteran contracts which won't make the rebuilding job any easier.

Hopefully he is saying the same things to Chris or Mike and they finally decide to promote or fire this guy till he sets the rebuild back even further. If Chris and/or Mike decide to keep him as GM they are also to blame for the state this team is in.

Edited December 18, 2016 by frankgrimes

[kliq 3,755]

20 minutes ago, frankgrimes said:

It's a hard league Holland really? Everyone knows that you are paid the big bucks to work some magic that other (so called "lesser") GMs aren't able to pull of.

The Wings aren't the only team in this position? Right but the Wings are an Original 6 franchise used to be the class of this damn league.

To me these quotes show exactly why Holland isn't the right guy for a rebuild, he has no experience is in over his head and other this his usual kicking the tires, talking about the salary cap and other teams he is out of ideas. The sad thing he has handcuffed the new GM with lots of bad veteran contracts which won't make the rebuilding job any easier.

Hopefully he is saying the same things to Chris or Mike and they finally decide to promote or fire this guy till he sets the rebuild back even further. If Chris and/or Mike decide to keep him as GM they are also to blame for the state this team is in.

Unfortunately for us Frank, the league has changed the CBA to a point where this doesn't mean s*** anymore. The league is designed for parity, big names rarely move, elite players will make the most money by staying with their existing team (ie. not hitting UFA), being an original 6 team means nothing, UFA is filled with average players who always end up getting overpaid, trades don't happen outside of minor moves at the deadline, the list goes on and on. This is the NHL in 2016 as you cant just spend money to get ahead. The difference in payroll from 1st to 22nd in the NHL is 10 million. To give you a comparable, in MLB the difference between 1st and 22nd is 133 million. 

I dont think you have to worry about the new GM having an issues, Holland isnt going anywhere.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

50 minutes ago, frankgrimes said:

It's a hard league Holland really? Everyone knows that you are paid the big bucks to work some magic that other (so called "lesser") GMs aren't able to pull of.

Honest question: do we know how much he makes and how much other GMs make? I couldn't find that info.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

52 minutes ago, kliq said:

Unfortunately for us Frank, the league has changed the CBA to a point where this doesn't mean s*** anymore. The league is designed for parity, big names rarely move, elite players will make the most money by staying with their existing team (ie. not hitting UFA), being an original 6 team means nothing, UFA is filled with average players who always end up getting overpaid, trades don't happen outside of minor moves at the deadline, the list goes on and on. This is the NHL in 2016 as you cant just spend money to get ahead. The difference in payroll from 1st to 22nd in the NHL is 10 million. To give you a comparable, in MLB the difference between 1st and 22nd is 133 million. 

I dont think you have to worry about the new GM having an issues, Holland isnt going anywhere.

Which is also a huge reason why I've lost interest in this league. I miss fights, linebrawls, bonecrushing hits and yes, even so called superteams and dynasties. Back in the 80s and early 90s everyone wanted to beat the Oilers, Rangers, Habs and then the Wings took over rivalries and leagues are thriving by trying to beat the best of the best. It's not just because the Wings are a shadow of their former self but they aren't allowed to use the endless pockets of Mr. I. I mean, if a team would be crazy enough to offer #97 a blankcheck of 200 million for 10 years why not? If an owner is willing to spend that so be it. It's a shame that being an Original 6 team means nothing because the teams that keep this league alive are the O 6 teams plus teams like Philly, Vancouver and of course Pittsburgh as long as they have Sid the Kid.

BUT every GM knows the current rules if you can't get the elite players because they are staying with their teams you have to get them via trade or draft no other way to do this. Hoping that some secondary players turn into stars or elite guys because it worked before isn't the way to go forward and I'm kinda sick of Holland's rethoric. He is quick to put to blame on everything and everyone but not himself but he is the guy calling the shots and so far he hasn't been able to fix the defense, looks like his coaching choice could be the wrong one and he is out of answers, so if this guy is allowed to stay as GM then the owners are to blame for the sorry state of this team too, no other way around it.

The sad reality is: the Wings are getting punished for being TOO succesful for TOO long I mean wtf? Usually success gets rewarded and Wings fans should say "hell yeah we accept this sorry state and continue to support this crappy league by watching and going to games paying a premium?" - Personally I don't think so, I would love if Chris or Mr. I himself would speak up against the current setup of this league.

 

25 minutes ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

Honest question: do we know how much he makes and how much other GMs make? I couldn't find that info.

TSN had an insider session last year were they've mentioned Bowman, Lombardi and Holland as the currently highest paid GMs sadly no numbers were given out but I guess it's accurate. Given that coaches make around 3 million I guess Holland makes at least the same if not more. And for that kind of money his results have been underwhelming at best 1 good signing in Dekeyser, not 1 in words not one trade to help this team longterm and then of course his July 1 blunder: stating the Wings won't trade young talent to get rid of Pashas contract...and then he trades Chychrun and signs a veteran to a ridiculous 6 year deal.

Edited December 18, 2016 by frankgrimes

[kliq 3,755]

1 hour ago, frankgrimes said:

 

 

Which is also a huge reason why I've lost interest in this league. I miss fights, linebrawls, bonecrushing hits and yes, even so called superteams and dynasties. Back in the 80s and early 90s everyone wanted to beat the Oilers, Rangers, Habs and then the Wings took over rivalries and leagues are thriving by trying to beat the best of the best. It's not just because the Wings are a shadow of their former self but they aren't allowed to use the endless pockets of Mr. I. I mean, if a team would be crazy enough to offer #97 a blankcheck of 200 million for 10 years why not? If an owner is willing to spend that so be it. It's a shame that being an Original 6 team means nothing because the teams that keep this league alive are the O 6 teams plus teams like Philly, Vancouver and of course Pittsburgh as long as they have Sid the Kid.

 

BUT every GM knows the current rules if you can't get the elite players because they are staying with their teams you have to get them via trade or draft no other way to do this. Hoping that some secondary players turn into stars or elite guys because it worked before isn't the way to go forward and I'm kinda sick of Holland's rethoric. He is quick to put to blame on everything and everyone but not himself but he is the guy calling the shots and so far he hasn't been able to fix the defense, looks like his coaching choice could be the wrong one and he is out of answers, so if this guy is allowed to stay as GM then the owners are to blame for the sorry state of this team too, no other way around it.

 

The sad reality is: the Wings are getting punished for being TOO succesful for TOO long I mean wtf? Usually success gets rewarded and Wings fans should say "hell yeah we accept this sorry state and continue to support this crappy league by watching and going to games paying a premium?" - Personally I don't think so, I would love if Chris or Mr. I himself would speak up against the current setup of this league.

 

 

 

 

TSN had an insider session last year were they've mentioned Bowman, Lombardi and Holland as the currently highest paid GMs sadly no numbers were given out but I guess it's accurate. Given that coaches make around 3 million I guess Holland makes at least the same if not more. And for that kind of money his results have been underwhelming at best 1 good signing in Dekeyser, not 1 in words not one trade to help this team longterm and then of course his July 1 blunder: stating the Wings won't trade young talent to get rid of Pashas contract...and then he trades Chychrun and signs a veteran to a ridiculous 6 year deal.

I 100% agree with the first part in bold. I would put money on it that Chicago will suffer the exact same fate in about 6 years and come that time fans will turn on Bowman just like the fans here with Holland.

As far as the second bolded part, I guess it all depends on the Wings opinion of Chychrun. If they had no intention of drafting him, you cannot argue the trade as it was a steal for the Wings. If the Wings did want him, but gave him up to rid of Datsyuk's contract, then you are right and it was a bad move. I agree about the Nielsen deal, I didnt like it either. Hopefully Cholowski exceeds expectations and makes this a moot point, I think we can agree to hope for that.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

26 minutes ago, kliq said:

I 100% agree with the first part in bold. I would put money on it that Chicago will suffer the exact same fate in about 6 years and come that time fans will turn on Bowman just like the fans here with Holland.

As far as the second bolded part, I guess it all depends on the Wings opinion of Chychrun. If they had no intention of drafting him, you cannot argue the trade as it was a steal for the Wings. If the Wings did want him, but gave him up to rid of Datsyuk's contract, then you are right and it was a bad move. I agree about the Nielsen deal, I didnt like it either. Hopefully Cholowski exceeds expectations and makes this a moot point, I think we can agree to hope for that.

Bowman has shown the willingness to get ahead of problems. He knew he couldn't resign Saad, Shaw and boom they got traded giving the Hawks assets to work with while their core is still in their prime. Holland has not shown the same willingness, he rather lets players walk for nothing or is willing to trade young players for 2 months of veteran service. Of course Bowman has a huge advantage because the best GM ever is giving him advise in Scotty Bowman.

Second part you are right if the Wings didn't want Chychrun then the point is moot, otherwise of course a very bad trade. Holly cow Nielsen has a NMC for the first 2 years also. If I were Holland (I know armchair GM), I would let it be known that I'm open to listening to offers and would try to get in touch with whoever the Vegas GM is telling him the Wings would expose Green if they are willing to offer a nice pick. That way Vegas gets a veteran defenders and the Wings a second rounder.

Last part yes we can for sure agree on that because this defense needs all the help they can get.

[kliq 3,755]

3 minutes ago, frankgrimes said:

Bowman has shown the willingness to get ahead of problems. He knew he couldn't resign Saad, Shaw and boom they got traded giving the Hawks assets to work with while their core is still in their prime. Holland has not shown the same willingness, he rather lets players walk for nothing or is willing to trade young players for 2 months of veteran service. Of course Bowman has a huge advantage because the best GM ever is giving him advise in Scotty Bowman.

You're right with the Saad move, as long as the Hawks have a prime Kane, Keith, Seabrook and Toews and surround them with good goaltending and solid depth, they will be fine. With that core he can pretty much get away with trading anyone else. I would love to see what our roster would look like with Keith and Seabrook as our 1D & 2D.

 

[Richdg 267]

On 12/18/2016 at 4:55 PM, kliq said:

I think his point of referencing other teams is that everybody is looking for a quick fix since so many teams are in the same position. When you have that many teams in the same position (ie. playoff bubble teams), you dont have many teams looking to give up major assets. I dont think his comments are meant to read "I want to be just like every other team!!!".

Of course you do. Holland can do no wrong.....

As for Schenn ya, why would we want a big physical Dmen that plays 20 mins per night, is only 27 and is break even in +/- on a bad team like the Yotes..... Instead we can play guys like Lashoff and Jensen, and bad knees Kornwall and bad hip/back Ericsson...... Heck we could have signed him for less than I thought it would take! Terrible idea......

[kliq 3,755]

Just now, Richdg said:

Of course you do. Holland can do no wrong.....

As for Schenn ya, why would we want a big physical Dmen that plays 20 mins per night, is only 27 and is break even in +/- on a bad team like the Yotes..... Instead we can play guys like Lashoff and Jensen, and bad knees Kornwall and bad hip/back Ericsson...... Heck we could have signed him for less than I thought it would take! Terrible idea......

Holland does plenty wrong, I just don't throw blind hate at him because I am looking for a scapegoat. I use logic to dictate my feelings about this team, management, coaches, and players. Logic tells me that ownership gives a GM a direction, and the GM moves forward with said direction. If Holland's direction is to make the playoffs and to re-build at the same time, no I dont think he is the villain that you make him out to be. Does that make him perfect? Of course not.

Why can't you just admit you were wrong? You wanted to give a guy 4 years at 4mil per year, and when everybody told you that he was not even close to worth it, you fought with every poster and then he signs for 2 years at 1.25 per year proving that you were way off with your assessment of him and you still defend your point, even providing false +/- stats to make your self sound right as he is -3. Not that arguing +/- makes you sound right anyways,

My point is you rip into Holland for signing long term contracts and say that you have been warning everyone for 5-6 years, but then at the same time you advocate for one yourself that would have been atrocious and one of the worst on our team.

If you want us to go with just kids, why would Schenn at 4 years and 16mil be a contract you would want to hand out? 

[LeftWinger 4,961]

We should trade Holland for Bowman.

[Barrie 900]

I don't think anyone is to blame, it's just 25 years of making the playoffs, and low draft picks, is coming back to haunt us. Also, if it wasn't for Datsyuk and Zetterberg becoming great players despite being drafted so low, this rebuild would have probably happened in 2004.

Unless we found two more diamonds in the ruff, again, a rebuild was going to happen once Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg retired. We didn't get franchise players in the draft in the later rounds, so it's time to rebuild.

[ami 273]

the root cause is #3.
Disinterested ownership led to loosing key figures in team management. All the rest are derivatives.

Bad news ownership ain't easily fixable...

 

Edited December 22, 2016 by ami

[bringbackfontez 36]

I don't think anyone is to blame, it's just 25 years of making the playoffs, and low draft picks, is coming back to haunt us.

Fully agree. The Wings haven't had a 1st round pick higher than 15 since 1991. This isn't to say that you can't "succeed" in the draft through the later rounds, but you're likely going to be unable to take a freakish, elite player who can single-handedly carry a team. This team is simply in a situation that every team in every league must go through at some point. Look at the Hawks before and after they drafted Toews and Kane (3rd and 1st overall). Before 08-09, they hadn't finished better than 3rd in their division since 95-96. Look at the Penguins before and after they got Crosby and Malkin (1st and 2nd overall).
I also feel as though there should be no exclusive blame placed anywhere. It's fine beyond the ability to just reload. It looks like it's time to rebuild


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[kliq 3,755]

On 12/20/2016 at 8:06 AM, LeftWinger said:

We should trade Holland for Bowman.

Wouldn't your argument for why Scotty Bowman is the reason for 98 and 02 and not Holland hold true against Stan Bowman and how Dick Tallon is the reason for his 3 cups?

[kliq 3,755]

2 minutes ago, bringbackfontez said:

 

Fully agree. The Wings haven't had a 1st round pick higher than 15 since 1991. This isn't to say that you can't "succeed" in the draft through the later rounds, but you're likely going to be unable to take a freakish, elite player who can single-handedly carry a team. This team is simply in a situation that every team in every league must go through at some point. Look at the Hawks before and after they drafted Toews and Kane (3rd and 1st overall). Before 08-09, they hadn't finished better than 3rd in their division since 95-96. Look at the Penguins before and after they got Crosby and Malkin (1st and 2nd overall).
I also feel as though there should be no exclusive blame placed anywhere. It's fine beyond the ability to just reload. It looks like it's time to rebuild


Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
 

100% agree. The fact that this didnt happen earlier is actually quite shocking when you think about it.

2008 shouldn't have happened based on your typical cyclical nature of a team. The fact that the Wings were able to keep up a high level of play after they lost the core of the 1997 team was truly impressive.

The Wings, Spurs, Pats and Cardinals are all teams in their respective sports that have defied this cyclical nature for years. It will catch up with all of them eventually though, and unfortunately for us its now happening to the Wings.

[Dominator2005 558]

Problem is that KH seems like working just 2 days in a year, at draft and 1st day of free agency... his goal is to built playoff contender team and not Stanley Cup contenders... he's the architect/designer and this s*** doesn't work at all

[ami 273]

38 minutes ago, bringbackfontez said:

Look at the Hawks before and after they drafted Toews and Kane (3rd and 1st overall). Before 08-09, they hadn't finished better than 3rd in their division since 95-96. Look at the Penguins before and after they got Crosby and Malkin (1st and 2nd overall).
 

Yes, these two examples when considered alone may prove your point. However, there is Edmonton Oilers with handful of high draft picks and still is sucking badly. There is also Tampons. Their rise started with Vinik hiring Yzerman away from Wings, not from drafting Stampkos two years earlier.

Sure, good players drafted 1st, 2nd and 3rd mean a lot, but ownership and management can screw it all up as easily.

[bringbackfontez 36]

Yes, these two examples when considered alone may prove your point. However, there is Edmonton Oilers with handful of high draft picks and still is sucking badly. There is also Tampons. Their rise started with Vinik hiring Yzerman away from Wings, not from drafting Stampkos two years earlier.
Sure, good players drafted 1st, 2nd and 3rd mean a lot, but ownership and management can screw it all up as easily.

Edmonton currently tied for 1st in the Pacific and 3rd in the Western Conference with one of the top 3 players in the NHL. If McDavid stays in Edmonton, they could be dangerous for awhile. And do you honestly think Tampa would have the success they've had in recent years without SS? I'm not saying team success is strictly based on 1st round draft picks. Management is still required to build a solid machine around them. But the best teams in the league right now were all pretty bad not too long ago before they landed their cornerstones

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[ami 273]

26 minutes ago, bringbackfontez said:

Edmonton currently tied for 1st in the Pacific and 3rd in the Western Conference with one of the top 3 players in the NHL. If McDavid stays in Edmonton, they could be dangerous for awhile. And do you honestly think Tampa would have the success they've had in recent years without SS? I'm not saying team success is strictly based on 1st round draft picks. Management is still required to build a solid machine around them. But the best teams in the league right now were all pretty bad not too long ago before they landed their cornerstones

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
 

Yes, I'd tend to agree EDM may be out of the wood if they make it past first round this year. However, it took them 6 ******* years with high picks to start finding the way...

One more example just come to mind - LA Kings, two Cups and no draft picks since Doughty.

Why would anyone think that Wings are going to fly scoring high draft pick without any organizational change while playing in ******* Little Caesars Arena?

Edited December 23, 2016 by ami

[chaps80 1,591]

Found this:

There once was a team called the Wings
We played great and won lots of things
But now we’ve got grit
Our powerplay is s***
We look more like the old Dead Things

 

lol

[LeftWinger 4,961]

10 hours ago, kliq said:

Wouldn't your argument for why Scotty Bowman is the reason for 98 and 02 and not Holland hold true against Stan Bowman and how Dick Tallon is the reason for his 3 cups?

Dave Tallon....but yes it would, but the Cup just seems to follow people named Bowman around. That was my tongue in cheek statement. 

[Dabura 12,207]

12 hours ago, Barrie said:

I don't think anyone is to blame, it's just 25 years of making the playoffs, and low draft picks, is coming back to haunt us. Also, if it wasn't for Datsyuk and Zetterberg becoming great players despite being drafted so low, this rebuild would have probably happened in 2004.

Unless we found two more diamonds in the ruff, again, a rebuild was going to happen once Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg retired. We didn't get franchise players in the draft in the later rounds, so it's time to rebuild.

I like to piss and moan about the Wings, but if I remove my tongue from my cheek for a moment, then, yeah, I mostly agree with this. "The Lidstrom Era" was a perfect storm of awesomeness, the likes of which the hockey world will never see again. That the Wings would one day end up in the basement has long been an inevitability.

There's room for criticism, though.

[kylee 727]

any coach that has put Glendening in a top 6 role has lost his marbles.