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kliq

Our Young Players

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6 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Agreed.

D-Boss would most likely be a 2nd line center on a dozen teams in the league - maybe more.

That doesn't make him a 2C though. That actually means he IS a 1C, just not an elite one. He may never be an elite NHL center, but he is and will be a quality 1C that plays a solid two-way game. We do need to add at least one more high, high-end center in the next couple years. Hopefully one or both of Veleno / Rasmussen can fill that 2C hole, and not be too much of a drop off from Larkin...

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10 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Agreed.

D-Boss would most likely be a 2nd line center on a dozen teams in the league - maybe more.

Theres 32 teams ... if larkin isnt a #1c on 16 teams but hes a #1c on 16 other teams hes guess what .. a #1c 

everyones acting stupid this year cause our team is absolute trash and players #’s will obviously be lower than normal ... if larkin ever becomes our #2c we’d be in a great situation at C as a whole 

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1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

That doesn't make him a 2C though. That actually means he IS a 1C, just not an elite one. He may never be an elite NHL center, but he is and will be a quality 1C that plays a solid two-way game. We do need to add at least one more high, high-end center in the next couple years. Hopefully one or both of Veleno / Rasmussen can fill that 2C hole, and not be too much of a drop off from Larkin...

He's a 1C on this team, and will likely be so since we're so devoid of talent.

I had high hopes for him this season - he's been disappointing.

4 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Theres 32 teams ... if larkin isnt a #1c on 16 teams but hes a #1c on 16 other teams hes guess what .. a #1c 

everyones acting stupid this year cause our team is absolute trash and players #’s will obviously be lower than normal ... if larkin ever becomes our #2c we’d be in a great situation at C as a whole 

How's that twitter account of yours - lol...

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9 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

He's a 1C on this team, and will likely be so since we're so devoid of talent.

I had high hopes for him this season - he's been disappointing.

How's that twitter account of yours - lol...

Maybe hes been dissapointing cause this team as a whole is devoid of talent? Everyone stays healthy next year he can bounce back and hit 80+ (he was almost at a pt per last yr) 

Theres 4/5 guys on this team worth keeping and everyone else can go + a ton of games missed for mantha/AA and him having rotating linemates ...when were this bad itll surely affect anyones stats

Wtf do you care about my twitter 

Edited by nyqvististhefuture

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3 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

He's a 1C on this team, and will likely be so since we're so devoid of talent.

I had high hopes for him this season - he's been disappointing.

He's a 1C on this team, and like you alluded to, would also be a 1C on nearly 20 other teams in the league. That makes him a 1C. Like I said, just not an elite one. Give him some elite wingers and he will thrive.

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2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

That doesn't make him a 2C though. That actually means he IS a 1C, just not an elite one. He may never be an elite NHL center, but he is and will be a quality 1C that plays a solid two-way game. We do need to add at least one more high, high-end center in the next couple years. Hopefully one or both of Veleno / Rasmussen can fill that 2C hole, and not be too much of a drop off from Larkin...

You're splitting hairs...  he's the best we have so we deploy him as a 1C.  That's about the size of it... on a hand full of teams he'd be the 3rd line center.  He's a 2C plain and simple.

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9 minutes ago, mackel said:

You're splitting hairs...  he's the best we have so we deploy him as a 1C.  That's about the size of it... on a hand full of teams he'd be the 3rd line center.  He's a 2C plain and simple.

Never mind Larkin. Forget what he did last year. Forget what he's done this year. Would you consider a 70-80 point, two-way center a number one center?

Hint: there's only about 20-25 centers in the league that put up that sort of production. Even less if you consider defensive acumen.

Larkin is having a down season, because the team as a whole is s***, ravaged with injuries.

Larkin will be fine. This team will be fine with Larkin as the number one center, as long as we can surround him with elite wingers (Lafreniere? Mantha), and added depth down the middle (Byfield? Veleno / Rasmussen).

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I think the jury is still out on Larkin being a 1C. I don't think we know what player Dylan Larkin is.  Is he the guy who scored 73 points last year against top competition and was a stud 200 ft. player?  Or is he all that but likely to score around 60 pts.? 

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Larkin is on pace for 21 goals and 57 pts.

For a 23 year old player who last season was on pace for 35 goals and 79 pts, that is pretty abysmal, and disappointing to say the least. Instead of building on last years success he's done the opposite. It's not like this is a sophomore slump or teams just starting to figure him out. This is player with close to 400 games played already.

I don't take "this roster sucks" as an excuse for his lack of production even a little. Of all the players on the team he's had the best line-mates of anyone. Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, and Zadina have all found tremendous success in their production, yet Larkin hasn't.

Is he a future 1C/2C is debatable. But it's only debatable because he's playing like a 2C this year. Going into the season I would have cited him as an obvious 1C.

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2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Larkin is on pace for 21 goals and 57 pts.

For a 23 year old player who last season was on pace for 35 goals and 79 pts, that is pretty abysmal, and disappointing to say the least. Instead of building on last years success he's done the opposite. It's not like this is a sophomore slump or teams just starting to figure him out. This is player with close to 400 games played already.

I don't take "this roster sucks" as an excuse for his lack of production even a little. Of all the players on the team he's had the best line-mates of anyone. Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, and Zadina have all found tremendous success in their production, yet Larkin hasn't.

Is he a future 1C/2C is debatable. But it's only debatable because he's playing like a 2C this year. Going into the season I would have cited him as an obvious 1C.

Larkin has been underwhelming, but last year I thought he overachieved.  That top line got hot late in the season didn't it?  It'd be curious to see how many points he scored over the last month of the regular season.

His teammates aren't that good even on the top line.  Mantha has been hurt a lot.  Hasn't Larkin played with Glendenning at times?  And let's not forget that Fabbri was a 4th line scrub for St. Louis.  He's playing better in Detroit because of more ice time and because our forwards are so bad that he can just step in and look dominant compared to his teammates.  Everyone likes Bertuzzi but he's not a top line forward on any other team in hockey.  Zadina is a rookie. 

I'd like more from Larkin but I'm also the guy that wants to only bang hot chicks.  Doesn't always work that way.  I can give Larkin a pass somewhat due to the lack of top end talent around him.  You cannot expect him to play like a 1C when you don't have a 1W on either wing.  

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Guys, keep this civil. I'm struggling to understand the backlash due to predictions made 4 years ago about the future of this team and development of players. No one is ever entirely accurate, but senselessly attacking each other over it is pretty dumb. I've made some really stupid predictions, but at the time they seemed more reasonable. Keep the discussion on the right path or i'll lock this one down.

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4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Larkin has been underwhelming, but last year I thought he overachieved.  That top line got hot late in the season didn't it?  It'd be curious to see how many points he scored over the last month of the regular season.

His teammates aren't that good even on the top line.  Mantha has been hurt a lot.  Hasn't Larkin played with Glendenning at times?  And let's not forget that Fabbri was a 4th line scrub for St. Louis.  He's playing better in Detroit because of more ice time and because our forwards are so bad that he can just step in and look dominant compared to his teammates.  Everyone likes Bertuzzi but he's not a top line forward on any other team in hockey.  Zadina is a rookie. 

I'd like more from Larkin but I'm also the guy that wants to only bang hot chicks.  Doesn't always work that way.  I can give Larkin a pass somewhat due to the lack of top end talent around him.  You cannot expect him to play like a 1C when you don't have a 1W on either wing.  

Larkin had the same lack of talent around him last year and he played well.  Actually I think you could argue there's more forward talent on the team this year than last.  Lack of top end talent around him may explain why his numbers aren't as good as other top centers on other teams, but it doesn't explain why his numbers have plummeted relative to his play last season. 

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3 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Larkin had the same lack of talent around him last year and he played well.  Actually I think you could argue there's more forward talent on the team this year than last.  Lack of top end talent around him may explain why his numbers aren't as good as other top centers on other teams, but it doesn't explain why his numbers have plummeted relative to his play last season. 

Mantha played a lot more games last season than he's on pace for this year.  Athanasiou has been hurt and has been poor even when healthy.  Nyquist isn't here anymore and he scored a lot last year.  I don't see this forward talent you're talking about this season.  You lose Nyquist, gain Fabrri, and have more injuries to Athanasiou and Mantha.  Who else is relevant here?  Filppula replacing Vanek?  That doesn't seem to be a net gain.   

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4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Larkin has been underwhelming, but last year I thought he overachieved.  That top line got hot late in the season didn't it?  It'd be curious to see how many points he scored over the last month of the regular season.

In the last 30 days of the 2018/19 season he scored 11 pts in 11 games if that's what you're looking for.

He did that with ding ding Bertuzzi and Mantha, his same primary linemates this year with Fabbri and Zadina subbing in for Mantha when injured.

9 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

His teammates aren't that good even on the top line.  Mantha has been hurt a lot.  Hasn't Larkin played with Glendenning at times?  And let's not forget that Fabbri was a 4th line scrub for St. Louis.  He's playing better in Detroit because of more ice time and because our forwards are so bad that he can just step in and look dominant compared to his teammates.  Everyone likes Bertuzzi but he's not a top line forward on any other team in hockey.  Zadina is a rookie.

Glendening has been up n down the roster but Larkin has played overwhelmingly more with Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, and Zadina.

I mean you can attempt to build up Larkin but disparaging Fabbri, Zadina, and Bertuzzi all you want, but then why has the same lack of talent surrounding Mantha not affected him at all? And if Larkin needs Mantha on his wing in order to produce then we have a serious problem on our hands and Larkin is much more of a flawed player then I would even care to contend.

 

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6 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Mantha played a lot more games last season than he's on pace for this year.  Athanasiou has been hurt and has been poor even when healthy.  Nyquist isn't here anymore and he scored a lot last year.  I don't see this forward talent you're talking about this season.  You lose Nyquist, gain Fabrri, and have more injuries to Athanasiou and Mantha.  Who else is relevant here?  Filppula replacing Vanek?  That doesn't seem to be a net gain.   

AA, Vanek, Filppula don't matter because none of them played with Larkin anway. Matter of fact, Nyquist doesn't really either because while he DID play with Larkin, Dylan produced more after Nyquist was traded.  Your point about Mantha is valid, but misleading since he'll end up with about the same amount of games if he doesn't miss anymore for the remainder of the season.  I'd also argue that Bertuzzi is better than he was a year ago too. 

But my overall point is that Larkin is not playing with worse players this year compared to last, so his production dive can't be explained by his linemates.

Edited by kipwinger

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1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Mantha played a lot more games last season than he's on pace for this year.  Athanasiou has been hurt and has been poor even when healthy.  Nyquist isn't here anymore and he scored a lot last year.  I don't see this forward talent you're talking about this season.  You lose Nyquist, gain Fabrri, and have more injuries to Athanasiou and Mantha.  Who else is relevant here?  Filppula replacing Vanek?  That doesn't seem to be a net gain.   

Bertuzzi is better than he was last year. Mantha is better than he was last year. Larkin should be benefiting from that. You can claim Mantha being injured was the problem, but Mantha has been on Larkin's wing for more than half the season. When he wasn't Fabbri was mostly there and he's only on pace for 10 less points than Nyquist was last year. Not really that radical.

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1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

AA, Vanek, Filppula don't matter because none of them played with Larkin anway. Matter of fact, Nyquist doesn't really either because while he DID play with Larkin, Dylan score MORE after Nyquist was traded.  Your point about Mantha is valid, but misleading since he'll end up with about the same amount of games if he doesn't miss anymore for the remainder of the season.  I'd also argue that Bertuzzi is better than he was a year ago too. 

But my overall point is that Larkin is not playing with worse players this year compared to last, so his production dive can't be explained by his linemates.

This isn't the 1980's.  Linemates rarely stay together during the season.  Also, having injuries throughout the lineup affects how the other team matches up and how much pressure the top line has.  So you can't say the other players don't matter just because they don't play with Larkin.  Last year, AA provided good secondary scoring.  This year, that hasn't happened.  Nielsen scored 35 points last year.  He's on pace to put up enforcer type numbers this year.  Hence, more pressure on the top line.    

Also, the powerplay will often have different units.  Not just the same lineup throughout the year.  Not having AA and Vanek may affect what Larkin can do on the powerplay.  Last season, this team was 19th on the powerplay.  This year, they're next to last.  Mike Green has played the same amount of games this season as he did all last year.  However, last year he had 26 points and this year he has 9.  Kronwall is also not around.  They did gain Hronek, but overall the powerplay had a substantial decline.  How much of that are you willing to pin just on Larkin?  

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15 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Bertuzzi is better than he was last year. Mantha is better than he was last year. Larkin should be benefiting from that. You can claim Mantha being injured was the problem, but Mantha has been on Larkin's wing for more than half the season. When he wasn't Fabbri was mostly there and he's only on pace for 10 less points than Nyquist was last year. Not really that radical.

So if Larkin was scoring more but was a -21 like Bertuzzi, you'd be happier with him?  Mantha and Bertuzzi can pad their stats but the team isn't going to improve until they get some forward depth, especially at center, and can keep the puck out of its end.  This defense is a joke.  How much better would this team be if Larkin was scoring at last year's pace?  Probably still dead last in the league.     

If Mantha can stay healthy and play with Larkin, I can see Larkin's numbers improving the rest of the season.  I guess that will make you guys happy.  If any other center could do anything besides make a fool of himself, that would help Larkin also.  

Edited by GMRwings1983

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4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

This isn't the 1980's.  Linemates rarely stay together during the season.  Also, having injuries throughout the lineup affects how the other team matches up and how much pressure the top line has.  So you can't say the other players don't matter just because they don't play with Larkin.  Last year, AA provided good secondary scoring.  This year, that hasn't happened.  Nielsen scored 35 points last year.  He's on pace to put up enforcer type numbers this year.  Hence, more pressure on the top line.    

Also, the powerplay will often have different units.  Not just the same lineup throughout the year.  Not having AA and Vanek may affect what Larkin can do on the powerplay.  Last season, this team was 19th on the powerplay.  This year, they're next to last.  Mike Green has played the same amount of games this season as he did all last year.  However, last year he had 26 points and this year he has 9.  Kronwall is also not around.  They did gain Hronek, but overall the powerplay had a substantial decline.  How much of that are you willing to pin just on Larkin?  

Understood, but if all of that is responsible for depressing production then it should be having the same effect on Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, etc. but those guys are producing better than a year ago so I'm not sure why "this team sucks" is driving down Larkin's numbers but other guys are performing better. 

And just to be clear, I've already stated that I'm not sure whether Larkin is the 60 point guy he looks like this year, or the 75 point guy he looked like a year ago.  So this isn't some attempt to bash Larkin.  I think his ceiling is still very much up for debate.

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3 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

So if Larkin was scoring more but was a -21 like Bertuzzi, you'd be happier with him? 

If Mantha can stay healthy and play with Larkin, I can see Larkin's numbers improving the rest of the season.  I guess that will make you guys happy.  If any other center could do anything besides make a fool of himself, that would help Larkin also.  

Larkin’s had to play with a ton of bad linemates this season , and our d cant push the play and produce  for s*** (only 2 dmen with 10+ pts ) Got no doubt if everyones healthy next year his numbers will go back up ... this team is historically bad as a whole this season its that simple

Edited by nyqvististhefuture

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6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Understood, but if all of that is responsible for depressing production then it should be having the same effect on Mantha, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, etc. but those guys are producing better than a year ago so I'm not sure why "this team sucks" is driving down Larkin's numbers but other guys are performing better. 

And just to be clear, I've already stated that I'm not sure whether Larkin is the 60 point guy he looks like this year, or the 75 point guy he looked like a year ago.  So this isn't some attempt to bash Larkin.  I think his ceiling is still very much up for debate.

Mantha is too streaky and hasn't played much this season.  I'm curious to see if he can keep the same production as before his injury.  He also doesn't do anything else.  Larkin has other responsibilities.  Those responsibilities are harder to meet when the defense is so poor at positioning and decision making.  Imagine having to play center for this team?  Mantha can just float around and worry about offense.  

As for Bertuzzi, I'm not sure why he's playing better.  Maybe he was underachieving last year?  I forgot where he started last season in the lineup.  I know he ended up on the top line to finish the season.  It could be he just needed more opportunities to show he can score.    

Edited by GMRwings1983

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6 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

So if Larkin was scoring more but was a -21 like Bertuzzi, you'd be happier with him?

What's your point? Larkin is -18 himself.

7 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Mantha and Bertuzzi can pad their stats but the team isn't going to improve until they get some forward depth, especially at center, and can keep the puck out of its end.  This defense is a joke.  How much better would this team be if Larkin was scoring at last year's pace?  Probably still dead last in the league.     

If Mantha can stay healthy and play with Larkin, I can see Larkin's numbers improving the rest of the season.  I guess that will make you guys happy.  If any other center could do anything besides make a fool of himself, that would help Larkin also.  

Again, them why do these same factors seem to have no effect on Bertuzzi and Mantha?

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Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

What's your point? Larkin is -18 himself.

Again, them why do these same factors seem to have no effect on Bertuzzi and Mantha?

Read my post directly above. 

Honestly, I'm surprised Larkin is only -18.  

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1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Read my post directly above. 

Honestly, I'm surprised Larkin is only -18.  

So the excuse we're going with is "Larkin plays defense"

He sure does, but I don't think that helps your point in the slightest. He also plays in the Ozone and his scoring when there has declined. While Mantha's and Bertuzzis has gone up.

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