Our Young Players

[kipwinger 8,524]

4 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

 

Mantha is too streaky and hasn't played much this season.  I'm curious to see if he can keep the same production as before his injury.  He also doesn't do anything else.  Larkin has other responsibilities.  Those responsibilities are harder to meet when the defense is so poor at positioning and decision making.  Imagine having to play center for this team?  Mantha can just float around and worry about offense.  

As for Bertuzzi, I'm not sure why he's playing better.  Maybe he was underachieving last year?  I forgot where he started last season in the lineup.  I know he ended up on the top line to finish the season.  It could be he just needed more opportunities to show he can score.    

I dunno man, I just think the team was equally as bad (or close to it) as it was a year ago with largely the same personnel.  Lose a Nyquist, Vanek or De La Rose, add a Fabbri, Zadina, Filppula, and Perlini. Lose a Jensen, add a Nemeth. These are all basically marginal changes.  Maybe that's the reason why Larkin's production is way down but that doesn't seem obvious to me because these aren't huge differences.  That's all I'm saying.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

15 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So the excuse we're going with is "Larkin plays defense"

He sure does, but I don't think that helps your point in the slightest. He also plays in the Ozone and his scoring when there has declined. While Mantha's and Bertuzzis has gone up.

Sure it does.  The defense is significantly weaker this season.  Centers have more duties on that side of the ice.  So he's had more to deal with having to make up for poorer players to play with.  Also, the lack of depth at his own position.  AA and Nielsen have been worthless for the most part.  I suppose Connor McDavid could still lead the league in scoring with this same group but it wouldn't help the team one bit.  Also, nobody is saying Larkin is that kind of offensive player.  He needs more help around him. 

I don't know why you didn't read what I wrote about Mantha and Bertuzzi, but I can repeat.  Mantha's sample size this season is small.  Bertuzzi has started the season as a top liner and stayed that way throughout.  Was that the case last season?      

Edited February 12, 2020 by GMRwings1983

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Just now, kipwinger said:

I dunno man, I just think the team was equally as bad (or close to it) as it was a year ago with largely the same personnel.  Lose a Nyquist, Vanek or De La Rose, add a Fabbri, Zadina, Filppula, and Perlini. Lose a Jensen, add a Nemeth. These are all basically marginal changes.  Maybe that's the reason why Larkin's production is way down but that doesn't seem obvious to me because these aren't huge differences.  That's all I'm saying.

No, they're way worse this season. 

2019 season

21st in goals scored

27th in goals allowed

19th on the PP

28th on the PK

 

2020 season

31st in goals scored (dead last and 19 goals behind LA)

31st in goals allowed (dead last and 26 goals behind Jersey)

30th on the PP

26th on the PK

 

So only the PK slightly improved.  Bad as they were in 2019, nobody was talking about record breaking +/- numbers for the modern era.  Or the greatest goal differential the NHL has seen in some time.  This team has significantly gotten worse.  Everyone is part of the problem, including Larkin, Mantha, and Bertuzzi.  

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

13 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So the excuse we're going with is "Larkin plays defense"

He sure does, but I don't think that helps your point in the slightest. He also plays in the Ozone and his scoring when there has declined. While Mantha's and Bertuzzis has gone up.

Both Mantha and Bert have had their +/- drop this season while their offensive numbers have gone up. I think its fair to say that Larkin has been picking up his defense to cover for that, which is why his offense has dropped.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

8 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Both Mantha and Bert have had their +/- drop this season while their offensive numbers have gone up. I think its fair to say that Larkin has been picking up his defense to cover for that, which is why his offense has dropped.

He's also broken like half his sticks this season.  That can explain why the offensive numbers are dropping.  He's probably having to borrow Abdelkader's sticks to play with.  

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

22 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Sure it does.  The defense is significantly weaker this season.  Centers have more duties on that side of the ice.  So he's had more to deal with having to make up for poorer players to play with.  Also, the lack of depth at his own position.  AA and Nielsen have been worthless for the most part.  I suppose Connor McDavid could still lead the league in scoring with this same group but it wouldn't help the team one bit.  Also, nobody is saying Larkin is that kind of offensive player.  He needs more help around him. 

I don't know why you didn't read what I wrote about Mantha and Bertuzzi, but I can repeat.  Mantha's sample size this season is small.  Bertuzzi has started the season as a top liner and stayed that way throughout.  Was that the case last season?      

 

12 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Both Mantha and Bert have had their +/- drop this season while their offensive numbers have gone up. I think its fair to say that Larkin has been picking up his defense to cover for that, which is why his offense has dropped.

I'm confused as to why you both think his play in the defensive zone affects his play in the O zone.

Sure, I can see the argument that Larkin may have more defensive responsibilities in the Dzone this year. Playing low to help out a weak defense. But that has absolutely nothing to do with his play in the O zone. It's not like he is staying high in the O zone in order to cover for the defense in the trap.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

10 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

I'm confused as to why you both think his play in the defensive zone affects his play in the O zone.

Sure, I can see the argument that Larkin may have more defensive responsibilities in the Dzone this year. Playing low to help out a weak defense. But that has absolutely nothing to do with his play in the O zone. It's not like he is staying high in the O zone in order to cover for the defense in the trap.

Imagine if Crosby had to play a two-way game like Datsyuk had to play at his peak.  Would he still win all those Art Ross trophies?  How many Art Ross winning centers cared about defense?  Or imagine if Datsyuk didn't have to exert much energy defensively and could concentrate entirely on offense.  Would he have scored more points?    

When you play a complete game and are disciplined defensively, you don't save all your energy just for offense.  You can't just cherry pick.  A guy like Mantha literally just floats on the defensive side of the ice.   

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

8 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Imagine if Crosby had to play a two-way game like Datsyuk had to play at his peak.  Would he still win all those Art Ross trophies?  How many Art Ross winning centers cared about defense?  Or imagine if Datsyuk didn't have to exert much energy defensively and could concentrate entirely on offense.  Would he have scored more points?    

When you play a complete game and are disciplined defensively, you don't save all your energy just for offense.  You can't just cherry pick.  A guy like Mantha literally just floats on the defensive side of the ice.   

So the excuse for Larkin we're going with now is "he doesn't have the energy to play offense"

Crosby plays a solid defensive game, and oh look he scored 100 pts just last season, not at all dissimilar from his prior seasons.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

9 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So the excuse for Larkin we're going with now is "he doesn't have the energy to play offense"

Crosby plays a solid defensive game, and oh look he scored 100 pts just last season, not at all dissimilar from his prior seasons.

I thought it was common hockey knowledge that if you're asked to shoulder more defensive responsibility as a forward, especially a center, that your offence may have a tendency to suffer a bit? Unless you're an elite Selke caliber guy. 

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

No, they're way worse this season. 

2019 season

21st in goals scored

27th in goals allowed

19th on the PP

28th on the PK

 

2020 season

31st in goals scored (dead last and 19 goals behind LA)

31st in goals allowed (dead last and 26 goals behind Jersey)

30th on the PP

26th on the PK

 

So only the PK slightly improved.  Bad as they were in 2019, nobody was talking about record breaking +/- numbers for the modern era.  Or the greatest goal differential the NHL has seen in some time.  This team has significantly gotten worse.  Everyone is part of the problem, including Larkin, Mantha, and Bertuzzi.  

Those rankings could change because we got worse, or because other bottom feeder teams got better. 

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

22 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So the excuse for Larkin we're going with now is "he doesn't have the energy to play offense"

Crosby plays a solid defensive game, and oh look he scored 100 pts just last season, not at all dissimilar from his prior seasons.

He's gotten better at that, but I've never considered him a two-way center.  Besides, Larkin is no Crosby.  You're talking about the best offensive player of his era.    

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I thought it was common hockey knowledge that if you're asked to shoulder more defensive responsibility as a forward, especially a center, that your offence may have a tendency to suffer a bit? Unless you're an elite Selke caliber guy. 

Meh I tend to think that the widespread assumption that playing defense automatically takes from a players offense is a false dichotomy.

It may have been more true pre-2012ish. But nowadays every center is asked is to play low and help their D significantly.

It may also be somewhat true for a select few players, like AA. Who's looking to cheat a bit and capitalize on the transition. But Larkin doesn't cheat this year, and he didn't last year, or the year prior.

Just now, GMRwings1983 said:

He's gotten better at that, but I've never considered him a two-way center.  Besides, Larkin is no Crosby.  You're talking about the best offensive player of his era.    

Hey you invoked Crosby, not me.

We can agree to disagree then on Sid. I think he's an excellent two-way player. Bergeron or Kopitar level D? No. But then again Larkin doesn't have that level of D either. .

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

12 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Meh I tend to think that the widespread assumption that playing defense automatically takes from a players offense is a false dichotomy.

It may have been more true pre-2012ish. But nowadays every center is asked is to play low and help their D significantly.

It may also be somewhat true for a select few players, like AA. Who's looking to cheat a bit and capitalize on the transition. But Larkin doesn't cheat this year, and he didn't last year, or the year prior.

Hey you invoked Crosby, not me.

We can agree to disagree then on Sid. I think he's an excellent two-way player. Bergeron or Kopitar level D? No. But then again Larkin doesn't have that level of D either. .

Bergeron would quit hockey if he had to play a two-way game with this team.  

[Dabura 12,207]

There likely isn't a simple cut-and-dry explanation for Larkin's dip in production this season. Instead, I would say it's the result of a bunch of things, including but not necessarily limited to the following:

• The somewhat-expected shooting percentage regression. His career S% is, at present, 9.4. This season: 8.5. Last season: 11.1. Season before that: 6.9. (nice) Season before that: 9.6. Rookie season: 10.4.
• Teams respect him now. Last season, he surprised everyone. This season, everyone knows he's a guy you have to gameplan around. Coaches and players and scouts have done their homework on him. He's being treated like a 30-goal, 70-point 1C.
• He's still learning things that he never really had to learn at lower levels because he was always so much faster than his peers. He's not a high-percentage shooter like McDavid or MacKinnon, so, while he does have that elite skating ability, he'll have to keep digging deep and growing his two-way game. He's never going to be an overwhelming offensive dynamo like McDavid or MacKinnon, but I think Ryan O'Reilly 2.0 is doable. (Worth noting: O'Reilly had his monster breakout half-season as a 28-year-old.)
• Mantha missing extended time.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Dabura

[mackel 681]

6 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Never mind Larkin. Forget what he did last year. Forget what he's done this year. Would you consider a 70-80 point, two-way center a number one center?

Hint: there's only about 20-25 centers in the league that put up that sort of production. Even less if you consider defensive acumen.

Larkin is having a down season, because the team as a whole is s***, ravaged with injuries.

Larkin will be fine. This team will be fine with Larkin as the number one center, as long as we can surround him with elite wingers (Lafreniere? Mantha), and added depth down the middle (Byfield? Veleno / Rasmussen).

If Byfield was our pick and he projected accurately he'd be this team's #1 center within 3 years.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

I tend to think our middle of the ice is fine really. Rasmussen/Larkin/Veleno can handle the top 2 spots between them in a few seasons. N and Glendog Millionaire can handle the bottom roles. I just want the dynamo in Lafreniere

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

3 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

He's also broken like half his sticks this season.  That can explain why the offensive numbers are dropping.  He's probably having to borrow Abdelkader's sticks to play with.  

Giving Larkin all of his sticks would also explain Abby's offensive production this season.

21 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I tend to think our middle of the ice is fine really. Rasmussen/Larkin/Veleno can handle the top 2 spots between them in a few seasons. N and Glendog Millionaire can handle the bottom roles. I just want the dynamo in Lafreniere

Larkin, Mantha, Zadina, Bert, Moose, and Veleno. Throw in Laff and our 3rd line looks pretty good, too. Rass/Veleno, AA, Berggren/Svech.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

10 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Giving Larkin all of his sticks would also explain Abby's offensive production this season.

Larkin, Mantha, Zadina, Bert, Moose, and Veleno. Throw in Laff and our 3rd line looks pretty good, too. Rass/Veleno, AA, Berggren/Svech.

When I see no Fabbri

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

7 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

When I see no Fabbri

Lol. Totally left him out. Oops.