2017 Draft

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, mackel said:

This isn't a relevant question.  

If the talent level is equivalent, you take the canadian...  that's my opinion.  You take the canadian for the intangibles, growing up in an immersive hockey culture, being in an elite competitive environment from a young age, and though it's corney to say that old school canadian heart and will to win is a real factor.

Again you seem to disagree, which is fine... that's you're opinion and I respect that... 

So what area of Ontario are you from?

No need to get defensive, I haven't disagreed with you once yet. I'm asking you why you blatantly show bias toward certain nationalities. Is culture/heart the answer you're going with?

[mackel 679]

I'm not from Ontario.  I don't owe you or anyone an answer, I stated my opinion, and frankly I don't care if you agree or disagree.  All other things being relatively equal a mountain of anecdotal evidence says take the canadian.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

8 minutes ago, mackel said:

I'm not from Ontario.  I don't owe you or anyone an answer, I stated my opinion, and frankly I don't care if you agree or disagree.  All other things being relatively equal a mountain of anecdotal evidence says take the canadian.

You stated you'd pick a Canadian over others because "enviroment" and "culture". You don't think it's relevant for me to ask which culture/environment you yourself are from?

Look man, you're obviously Canadian, why are you afraid to admit that? 

Edited March 21, 2017 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[mackel 679]

I'm not afraid to admit I'm canadian, I just don't see what impact that has on what I've said.  My statement on culture and environment would be correct regardless of my nationality. 

I'm guessing you must be American given your argumentative demeanour...  don't be afraid to admit it bro

[Dabura 12,207]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Craig Button has us taking defenseman Cale Makar at number 4...

Interesting. He's arguably the best defenseman in this draft class, but I'm not sure he'd be the best player available @ #4.

I hope the plan isn't to draft for need and load up on defensemen just for the sake of loading up on defensemen. Best player available FTW.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, mackel said:

I'm not afraid to admit I'm canadian, I just don't see what impact that has on what I've said.  My statement on culture and environment would be correct regardless of my nationality. 

I'm guessing you must be American given your argumentative demeanour...  don't be afraid to admit it bro

Well yeahhh I'm American, Seattle is listed as my location right there lol

So if I said "I prefer to draft Americans over other nationalities" because "Americans have more heart" you wouldnt think my citizenship as an American played into that at all?

 

 

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Oops, wrong thread

Edited March 21, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

Oh Sportsnet, talking about how good Anthony Athanasiou has been...

Better than Andreas Mantha obviously

[mackel 679]

21 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Well yeahhh I'm American, Seattle is listed as my location right there lol

So if I said "I prefer to draft Americans over other nationalities" because "Americans have more heart" you wouldnt think my citizenship as an American played into that at all.

Sure you could say that, it wouldn't make much sense...it's a statement that is counter to hockey orthodoxy.  

That said it could be your opinion and it wouldn't be a problem.  It certainly wouldn't be something I'd argue over for a page and a half.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

The idea that a player is going to be better because of where he's from is ludicrous.

Best player available. If it's close between two guys, go for the bigger player and position of need.

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[mackel 679]

10 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

The idea that a player is going to be better because of where he's from is ludicrous.

Best player available. If it's close between two guys, go for the bigger player and position of need.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk
 

It's something this team has done with players that have Michigan connections....  rightly or wrongly.  But none of those Michigan linked players are high end, though some are paid that way.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

28 minutes ago, mackel said:

Sure you could say that, it wouldn't make much sense...it's a statement that is counter to hockey orthodoxy.  

That said it could be your opinion and it wouldn't be a problem.  It certainly wouldn't be something I'd argue over for a page and a half.

Hockey orthodoxy? Please show me in the hockey bible where it says Canadians have the most "heart"? Seriously. Are Canadian hearts simply bigger, or do you Canadians have multiple hearts or something? Please educate me, as I am not well versed in hockey orthodoxy being a heartless American and all. Do you suggest starting with the book of Cherry?

Anyway, you side stepped the question. I'll state it again.

As an American, if I said I prefer drafting American players over others, you honestly wouldn't think my own status as an American would play into that?

It's a simple yes or no

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

24 minutes ago, mackel said:

It's something this team has done with players that have Michigan connections....  rightly or wrongly.  But none of those Michigan linked players are high end, though some are paid that way.

Which of our Michigan players is paid high end? Are you suggesting that because the team has favored locals they should start favoring Canadians? Just trying to clarify where you are going with this 

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

51 minutes ago, mackel said:

It's something this team has done with players that have Michigan connections....  rightly or wrongly.  But none of those Michigan linked players are high end, though some are paid that way.

First of all, a motivation for signing local guys could be that they are more likely to re-sign when free agency comes along since they have family etc as motivation to stay there. It should be a consideration to a certain extent in the modern 'parity' salary cap NHL where you can't buy players like in the past and a lot rest on keeping your own developed talent. It's a different thing than giving preference to a nationality.

But, anyway, I think there's only a couple instances where you could say that the team chose players over others due to the local tie. Larkin being available that late in the draft was great luck. He's outproduced everyone lower than him in the draft other the David Paternak. Who would you rather take? I doubt they would have skipped him if he was from Helsinki.

It was great that we were able to pick up DK. The fact that he's from Michigan played into Dekeyser's side of the decision; not the team's. They weren't like "I guess we'll take this star college free agent that everyone wants, but only because he's from here."

Glendening they picked up partly due to Red Berenson's praise. If you want to count that as local bias, fine. Abby was a low pick, maybe local ties were a factor.

Edited March 22, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[BringBack19 110]

Mackel is right the Canadians on our team have way more heart and "grit" than guys like Zetterberg, Tatar, Larkin, Abby, Kronner and etc... "Canadian hockey players hearts are 1.25 X the size of every other nationality. It's science."- signed Ron Burgandy

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

The irritating part for me is I actually agree with Mackel's original point. Given there is no clear better player, I would select the North American (which is most of the time going to be a Canadian). But not because "Canadas gots hearts" or culture or orthodoxy or any of that weird nationalist BS. Id do it simply because NA boys play on smaller ice which I believe makes them more adapted to tranisition to the physicality of the NHL. However if a euro player even shows a hair more ability, ill draft the euro. Place of birth is not a good predictor of talent among hockey markets. May as well select by hair color.

And theres many advantages to having locals on ones team. Thats a whole other story.

Edited March 22, 2017 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[DickieDunn 2,571]

It's something this team has done with players that have Michigan connections....  rightly or wrongly.  But none of those Michigan linked players are high end, though some are paid that way.

And it's stupid. But it works for some fans who would rather see a roster full of home town kids, or "good old Canadian boys" for that matter.

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[krsmith17 7,191]

Surprised to see Tippett drop to 20, and Hague all the way down 55. Maybe we can still land Patrick or Vilardi, if we luck out in the lottery, and trade up to get two defensemen in the 2nd round, Hague and Samberg?... Then take another couple in the 3rd round. I just want to stock pile as many defensemen as we can, and hope to strike gold with one of them...

[LeftWinger 4,951]

Odd that they're falling, do you have a link to that list? I'd like to check out a few other names.

I'd take the best available at our spot, I'd prefer it not be the same type of player that we're loaded with though. If Hague dropped to 55, I most definitely take him in the 2nd round. Again, if we somehow could trade up to get another 1st near the 20-25 mark, I'd certainly snagged Tippett if he's there.

Best player with our 1st, trade a nhl player to move up to grab Tippett and draft Hague in the 2nd. I'm happy!

[krsmith17 7,191]

http://www.tsn.ca/craig-s-list-lots-of-talent-after-patrick-hischier-1.702428

[mackel 679]

13 hours ago, BringBack19 said:

Mackel is right the Canadians on our team have way more heart and "grit" than guys like Zetterberg, Tatar, Larkin, Abby, Kronner and etc... "Canadian hockey players hearts are 1.25 X the size of every other nationality. It's science."- signed Ron Burgandy

Actually you sorta make my point.... we don't have many or any high end Canadian (or any nationality) players on our team...  I point at this as something to address.  Of the players you've mentioned only Zetterberg is/was a star.  Kronwall was close to that status soley because he is/was our best defenceman, which speaks to the state of our blue line.   Tatar, Larkin, Abby are all average players... I was hopeful with Larkin but unless this is just a sophomore slump he's good but not great.

[BinMucker94 302]

14 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

http://www.tsn.ca/craig-s-list-lots-of-talent-after-patrick-hischier-1.702428

David Farrance listed one spot below Hague is from my hometown. Saw him play high school as an 8th grader and man can this kid move the puck up ice. Really smooth skating puck moving defenseman. Not very big. Probably 5'11" 180lbs but he was fun to watch. Not saying we should draft him but awesome to see him moving up the rankings.

[BringBack19 110]

8 minutes ago, mackel said:

Actually you sorta make my point.... we don't have many or any high end Canadian (or any nationality) players on our team...  I point at this as something to address.  Of the players you've mentioned only Zetterberg is/was a star.  Kronwall was close to that status soley because he is/was our best defenceman, which speaks to the state of our blue line.   Tatar, Larkin, Abby are all average players... I was hopeful with Larkin but unless this is just a sophomore slump he's good but not great.

Your argument was Canadians have more heart, and all things equal that makes them the better selection. That is what most posters took exception with not that we need high end players. That's a given.

Larkin has been very good over the last month. It is starting to appear that he is breaking through the sophomore slump. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by BringBack19

[mackel 679]

14 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Hockey orthodoxy? Please show me in the hockey bible where it says Canadians have the most "heart"? Seriously. Are Canadian hearts simply bigger, or do you Canadians have multiple hearts or something? Please educate me, as I am not well versed in hockey orthodoxy being a heartless American and all. Do you suggest starting with the book of Cherry?

Anyway, you side stepped the question. I'll state it again.

As an American, if I said I prefer drafting American players over others, you honestly wouldn't think my own status as an American would play into that?

It's a simple yes or no

Yes.  But if this were another sport maybe basketball then your nationality would be irrelevant.  Because the conclusion would make sense.  Since my original point seems to be lost I said all things being equal I'd take the Canadian over the ___________.... and by the way rink size was on my mind when I said hockey environment.

It was nice to see you agreed with me in the end though.  

On the Michigan ties...  Abby and Glenny are over paid... which seems to fly in the face of the home town discount narrative, DK signed here due to Michigan ties...  his play has warranted criticism and maybe even a seat in the pressbox.  But on here I've read posts from people saying well he signed here because of this and that treat him with kid gloves...  which is foolish.

[mackel 679]

4 minutes ago, BringBack19 said:

Your argument was Canadians have more heart, and all things equal that makes them the better selection. That is what most posters took exception with not that we need high end players. That's a given.

Larkin has been very good over the last month. It is starting to appear that he is breaking through the sophomore slump. 

Posters are welcome to disagree, but that's how I'd go about it.  To put it in context... I'd take Crosby in the crunch over Ovechkin. I'd take Marchand over Kane if I needed a goal in the last 5 minutes in a do or die game.  You're welcome to disagree... but it doesn't change my opinion nor does it make my opinion wrong.

All this draft talk may be a waste of time if we keep winning games...  this reminds me of the leafs of old...  once the playoffs are out of reach win some games and pick 12th, then repeat.