2017 Draft

[kipwinger 8,495]

To tell you the truth, I don't give a s*** about "liking" individual players.  I'm not asking them to come over and babysit my daughter, so I don't need to like them at all.  You could literally replace every single player on our team with a different player and I'd be happy as long as the Red Wings were better afterward.  I'm a fan of the team. 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Tatar and Nyquist are 2nd line wingers. That's their established value. If a team is looking to move a young NHL d-man, they're going to want either a higher end NHL player or a good prospect is return. Svechnikov may or may not do that. If it's Minny, they're likely going to want a guy they don't need to protect. In Detroit that's Larkin and Svechnikov. For Winnipeg or Anaheim, for example where they want to add some scoring maybe Mantha or AA gets it done, maybe they really like Svechnikov. Who knows.

But that's really beside my original point, which was if Svechnikov can bring a young D like Trouba, Brodin, Dumba, etc you do it and don't look back.

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[Buppy 1,720]

1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

Tatar and Nyquist are 2nd line wingers. That's their established value. If a team is looking to move a young NHL d-man, they're going to want either a higher end NHL player or a good prospect is return. Svechnikov may or may not do that. If it's Minny, they're likely going to want a guy they don't need to protect. In Detroit that's Larkin and Svechnikov. For Winnipeg or Anaheim, for example where they want to add some scoring maybe Mantha or AA gets it done, maybe they really like Svechnikov. Who knows.

But that's really beside my original point, which was if Svechnikov can bring a young D like Trouba, Brodin, Dumba, etc you do it and don't look back.

Your original point is meaningless. It's like saying "if you can trade a $5 bill for a $100 bill you do it". Maybe you think you're stating some clever insight that no one else has thought of, but you're really just saying something so obvious that no one thinks it's even worth mentioning, since it's equally obvious that you can't do that.

Svechnikov doesn't get you a player like Trouba; you need a package. And in that case the answer is not, "you do it and don't look back", it's "what is the rest of the package?". And the likely answer to that question is going to be something that makes it not worth it to also give up Svech. 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

So you agree that Svechnikov and say a 2nd for Trouba is good? Because Nyquististhefuture said Svechnikov is untouchable

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[amato 3,210]

Hey now, I like Orlov.. *drifts back into the shadows*  

No really though, I remember a discussion about him being someone we should look at getting given Washington's upcoming cap crunch. I'm still really bummed we didn't stay in the western conference long enough for Boston to consider trading us Hamilton.

[Dabura 12,206]

17 hours ago, kipwinger said:

You and I discussed Orlov, and WE agreed that he's very good.  Nobody else had ever mentioned him.  I bring him up precisely because he's the anti-Trouba.  A guy nobody nobody mentions despite the fact that he outperforms guy Jacob Trouba across the board.  Don't get it twisted, this isn't about Trouba being good.  There are plenty of defensemen as good or better than Trouba.  This is about Trouba being popular, which is a different thing.  That's why it's so annoying.  People don't want the best defenseman available, they want a guy they "like", and are willing to pay astronomical prices to get him. 

Look up Orlov's HERO.  It's better across the board than Shattenkirk AND Trouba.  So why no love for that guy around here?  Because a huge portion of LGW doesn't care about getting the best player, they want a team full of guys they like. 

"People don't want the best defenseman available, they want a guy they 'like.' I'm not one of these people. ORLOV! ORLOV! ORLOV! Orlov is better than Trouba! Orlov is better than Shattenkirk! No one here talks about Orlov! Why does no one talk about Orlov?! You people like Trouba too much. You overrate him. He's not the best defenseman available, he's just a guy you 'like.' I'm not like you people. I'm objective. Can we please talk about Orlov now? When can we talk about Orlov???"

Orlov's good. I don't think he's clearly superior to Trouba and I don't think Trouba is clearly superior to him.

His HERO chart is filthy...

...but that TOI is a not-insignificant asterisk. As is the fact that he plays for a really good Caps team.

Orlov's career stats:

• 2011-12: 19 points in 60 games
• 2012-13: 1 point in 5 games
• 2013-14: 11 points in 54 games
• 2014-15: 29 points in 82 games
• 2016-17: 33 points in 82 games

Trouba's career stats:

• 2013-14: 29 points in 65 games
• 2014-15: 22 points in 65 games
• 2015-16: 21 points in 81 games
• 2016-17: 33 points in 60 games

So, no, I don't agree that Orlov "outperforms Trouba across the board."

Like krsmith said, Trouba's from Michigan and he's been linked to the Wings in trade rumors. That alone could account for why he gets so much love in an online Wings community. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's fandom. You like what you like, you celebrate what you like.

Like krsmith also said, true top-tier defensemen aren't really available (and even if they are, we don't have much in the way of ultra-sexy trade chips). There are plenty of defensemen who are as good as or better than Trouba (and Orlov), but Trouba is kinda-sorta-maybe in that sweet spot of being very good but not so good that he'd cost us Larkin and Svechnikov and a first-round pick and a second-round pick.

Personally, if we're talking trade targets, I'll say what I've said a thousand times before: we should really be focusing on under-the-radar players that could, potentially, match the production of more expensive players. Moneypuck.

[Datsyukian-Deke 722]

What if they Wings offered 2 of our 3rds to Anaheim for Silfverberg? They are going to lose in him the expansion draft for nothing. Might be better to get something for him and lose a lesser player. 

[nowhere2005 13]

What if they Wings offered 2 of our 3rds to Anaheim for Silfverberg? They are going to lose in him the expansion draft for nothing. Might be better to get something for him and lose a lesser player. 

My guess is that Holland would be laughed at and told not to call again. There's basically no way that Silvferberg goes unprotected by Anaheim. Bieksa will either be asked to waive his NMC, they buy him out, or Anaheim offers an incentive for Vegas to not draft the unprotected player that Anaheim wants to keep.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

2 hours ago, Datsyukian-Deke said:

What if they Wings offered 2 of our 3rds to Anaheim for Silfverberg? They are going to lose in him the expansion draft for nothing. Might be better to get something for him and lose a lesser player. 

Unless they move another winger to bring in a D or C, they don't need Silfverberg

[Buppy 1,720]

9 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

So you agree that Svechnikov and say a 2nd for Trouba is good? Because Nyquististhefuture said Svechnikov is untouchable

Untouchable is one of those things people throw around, but don't mean literally. There isn't a person here who wouldn't trade everyone on their "untouchable" list if they thought the return would be something even better. All it really means is that you think there are better trade options.

Sure, Svech and a 2nd would be good. So good that I don't think there's a chance in hell Cheveldayoff would go for it. Add Tatar and it's a much more realistic package, and also a much less clear answer. If you think it's likely that Trouba will take off like Burns did, you say yes, if not maybe you look at what you can get for just Tatar and a 2nd. 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

If someone won't trade Svechnikov for Trouba, they're out of their mind. Nyquististhefuture wouldn't.

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[krsmith17 7,191]

42 minutes ago, Buppy said:

Untouchable is one of those things people throw around, but don't mean literally. There isn't a person here who wouldn't trade everyone on their "untouchable" list if they thought the return would be something even better. All it really means is that you think there are better trade options. 

This!

Larkin and Mantha are on my "untouchable list"... Of course I'd trade both in a heartbeat for Scheifele and Seguin, but that just isn't going to happen. There is not a single player in the league that is "untouchable" in the true sense of the word (even McDavid), but when talking realistic trades that actually could happen, there absolutely should be "untouchables".

[Buppy 1,720]

1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

If someone won't trade Svechnikov for Trouba, they're out of their mind. Nyquististhefuture wouldn't.

Straight 1 for 1 swap, yes he would.

In a package, it depends on what the package is.

[LeftWinger 4,936]

If Svech alone got us Trouba? I think 100% of us would do it.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

On 5/17/2017 at 4:04 PM, nyqvististhefuture said:

Ugh ...no 

 

svechnikov shouldnt be touched, trouba price would likely be really high and were not winning the cup in 3 yrs , wait till trouba signs with us as a ufa and keep mantha svechnikov Larkin AA as top 6 building blocks 

 

 

Right here.  Wouldn't trade Svechnikov for Trouba.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Right here.  Wouldn't trade Svechnikov for Trouba.

Who is this Svech feller? Nyquist is the future.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

If Gretzky was traded anyone can be traded.


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[Buppy 1,720]

33 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Right here.  Wouldn't trade Svechnikov for Trouba.

I can't believe you're actually that dense, so I have to assume you're just being deliberately obtuse. Have fun with that.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I say he said he wouldn't do Svechnikov for Trouba. You said he didn't. I quote his post where he said exactly that. But I'm dense. Gotcha.

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[Buppy 1,720]

1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

I say he said he wouldn't do Svechnikov for Trouba. You said he didn't. I quote his post where he said exactly that. But I'm dense. Gotcha.

I know I shouldn't bother answering, but no. No, he did not say exactly that.

Just the line, "trouba price would likely be really high" is enough to tell you he's talking about a package scenario. (Of course, only an idiot would think in terms of a 1 for 1 Svech for Trouba deal, so you shouldn't need even that line, but...) In case that isn't enough, looking at the context, he was replying to LW saying "I'd send them Svech if needed" in reference to the question of whether or not the previously suggested package of Howard, Nyquist, and Ouellet was good enough. While it's not exactly clear what LW meant, it sounds like he was saying he would add Svech to that package, and that idea is what Nyq was responding to. 

Looking at the post as a whole, we can probably safely infer that he means that given our current situation and the plausibility of adding Trouba as a UFA within a few years, that it isn't worth the probable price we'd have to pay (which it goes without saying is a s*** ton more than just Svech). 

You are at best grossly over-simplifying and taking quotes out of context.

 

[kipwinger 8,495]

18 hours ago, Dabura said:

"People don't want the best defenseman available, they want a guy they 'like.' I'm not one of these people. ORLOV! ORLOV! ORLOV! Orlov is better than Trouba! Orlov is better than Shattenkirk! No one here talks about Orlov! Why does no one talk about Orlov?! You people like Trouba too much. You overrate him. He's not the best defenseman available, he's just a guy you 'like.' I'm not like you people. I'm objective. Can we please talk about Orlov now? When can we talk about Orlov???"

Orlov's good. I don't think he's clearly superior to Trouba and I don't think Trouba is clearly superior to him.

His HERO chart is filthy...

...but that TOI is a not-insignificant asterisk. As is the fact that he plays for a really good Caps team.

Orlov's career stats:

• 2011-12: 19 points in 60 games
• 2012-13: 1 point in 5 games
• 2013-14: 11 points in 54 games
• 2014-15: 29 points in 82 games
• 2016-17: 33 points in 82 games

Trouba's career stats:

• 2013-14: 29 points in 65 games
• 2014-15: 22 points in 65 games
• 2015-16: 21 points in 81 games
• 2016-17: 33 points in 60 games

So, no, I don't agree that Orlov "outperforms Trouba across the board."

Like krsmith said, Trouba's from Michigan and he's been linked to the Wings in trade rumors. That alone could account for why he gets so much love in an online Wings community. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's fandom. You like what you like, you celebrate what you like.

Like krsmith also said, true top-tier defensemen aren't really available (and even if they are, we don't have much in the way of ultra-sexy trade chips). There are plenty of defensemen who are as good as or better than Trouba (and Orlov), but Trouba is kinda-sorta-maybe in that sweet spot of being very good but not so good that he'd cost us Larkin and Svechnikov and a first-round pick and a second-round pick.

Personally, if we're talking trade targets, I'll say what I've said a thousand times before: we should really be focusing on under-the-radar players that could, potentially, match the production of more expensive players. Moneypuck.

I told you to look at Orlov (as an example) because his HERO chart, which you were showing for Shattenkirk and Trouba is "across the board" better than theirs.  And I only bring him up because he's an example of your "moneypuck" idea, but doesn't get a 10th the fanfare (or the insane LGW trade proposals).  I don't "like" him anymore than I "like" Trouba.  I'm just fully aware that he's an example of a guy that's quite a lot better than Trouba in a number of meaningful ways, yet nobody seems to be suggesting that we trade our organizations' top prospects for him. 

Wonder why people are willing to throw away organizational depth for a guy who's (at best) in the same ballpark as guys like Shattenkirk, and who we could easily sign a few years from now (if he's as high on Detroit as his fans seem to suggest) without losing a single asset?  Clearly not because he's super good, you yourself just said he's neither better nor worse than Washington's 3rd best defenseman. 

Edited May 20, 2017 by kipwinger

[LeftWinger 4,936]

37 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I told you to look at Orlov (as an example) because his HERO chart, which you were showing for Shattenkirk and Trouba is "across the board" better than theirs.  And I only bring him up because he's an example of your "moneypuck" idea, but doesn't get a 10th the fanfare (or the insane LGW trade proposals).  I don't "like" him anymore than I "like" Trouba.  I'm just fully aware that he's an example of a guy that's quite a lot better than Trouba in a number of meaningful ways, yet nobody seems to be suggesting that we trade our organizations' top prospects for him. 

Wonder why people are willing to throw away organizational depth for a guy who's (at best) in the same ballpark as guys like Shattenkirk, and who we could easily sign a year from now (if he's as high on Detroit as his fans seem to suggest) without losing a single asset?  Clearly not because he's super good, you yourself just said he's neither better nor worse than Washington's 3rd best defenseman. 

We cannot sign him without losing an asset, he's an RFA when his contract is up, Peg would match or take our draft picks.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

6 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Right here.  Wouldn't trade Svechnikov for Trouba.

Wouldn't trade svechnikov for trouba as much as I'm a fan of trouba because I think he's coming here in 2-3 yrs when he's a ufa and we ain't winning squat so why trade svechnikov ,when if we're patient we'll have both 

 

if trouba said trade for me now or when Im a ufa you can kiss my ass, than maybe depending the deal , let's not kid ourselves it won't just be svechnikov they'd be asking for , 9th pick as well that can be a really good player+ other assets

 

just saying be smart and keep these good assets and just wait till the kid who's been vocal about wanting to come home,comes home 

it's the right play IMO 

1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

We cannot sign him without losing an asset, he's an RFA when his contract is up, Peg would match or take our draft picks.

Think he also meant to just wait till he's a ufa 

[kipwinger 8,495]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

We cannot sign him without losing an asset, he's an RFA when his contract is up, Peg would match or take our draft picks.

You're right, I stand corrected.  We couldn't sign him next year, we'd have to wait until his bridge deal is done.  Either way, my feeling is still the same.  If we really wants to play for Detroit as badly as people suggest he does, then just wait until he's a UFA to sign him (regardless of when that is).  Not like we're going to be competitive for a few years anyway, so what's the rush?

[DickieDunn 2,571]

It wouldn't take Svechnikov and the #9, unless their first was coming back too. They have to trade him or Myers or lose one for free to Vegas.

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