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HoweFan

2017 Draft

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8 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I told you to look at Orlov (as an example) because his HERO chart, which you were showing for Shattenkirk and Trouba is "across the board" better than theirs.  And I only bring him up because he's an example of your "moneypuck" idea, but doesn't get a 10th the fanfare (or the insane LGW trade proposals).  I don't "like" him anymore than I "like" Trouba.  I'm just fully aware that he's an example of a guy that's quite a lot better than Trouba in a number of meaningful ways, yet nobody seems to be suggesting that we trade our organizations' top prospects for him.

  • It's not clear to me how Orlov is "quite a lot better than Trouba in a number of meaningful ways." If you're basing this on the HERO charts, I'll again point out Orlov's low TOI% and I'll again point out that Orlov is a member of a very good Capitals team. These are important considerations.
  • Neither Orlov nor Trouba fits my personal definition of moneypuck. It's more along the lines of Anthony DeAngelo, Jaccob Slavin -- relatively "unknown" players with good upside who probably wouldn't cost an arm and a leg to acquire and who have the potential to become high-value contributors (i.e. perform above their pay grade) for the next few years.
  • Why are you so bent out of shape over people liking Trouba and not discussing Orlov? I mean, I'm not gonna judge you. I like ranting about Ken Holland and will look for any opportunity to do so. But I do feel like you've chosen a weird hill to die complain on. Orlov is not demonstrably superior to Trouba. Orlov is probably less well-known among hockey fans and is definitely less well-known among Red Wings fans.
10 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Wonder why people are willing to throw away organizational depth for a guy who's (at best) in the same ballpark as guys like Shattenkirk, and who we could easily sign a few years from now (if he's as high on Detroit as his fans seem to suggest) without losing a single asset?  Clearly not because he's super good, you yourself just said he's neither better nor worse than Washington's 3rd best defenseman. 

You're being obstinate.

We need young, cost-controlled high-end defensemen with real top-pairing potential. Trouba fits the bill. Orlov also fits the bill, but he's two years older and four inches shorter and he shoots left and he's not from Michigan and there haven't been rumors that he's unhappy in Caps Land and there haven't been rumors that he'd love to be a Wing and he hasn't been linked to the Wings in any significant trade rumors. So, yeah, Wings fans are going to give Trouba more love. C'est la vie.

Does it make more sense to trade for Trouba now (assuming the asking price is reasonable) or try to sign him several years from now (assuming he hits the open market)? I dunno. Adding Trouba now would, in theory, improve our blue line, which could, in theory, improve our team both in the here & now and moving forward, which could, in theory, accelerate our rebuild. Also, having him now gives us a shot at stretching his next contract (RFA) into his UFA years, which could be a win in the long run. Also, keep in mind: Mike Green is our best defenseman and next season might be his last as a Wing.

"But some people in this community believe we should pay an astronomical price to acquire Trouba."

And some people in this community believe we shouldn't. You might think you're the smartest guy in the room here, but that isn't necessarily the case.

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If Trouba is available, the Jets will likely want either a higher end D prospect or a good young forward in return. Unless they like Cholowski, Detroit doesn't have the D. I don't think they'd want Tatar or Nyquist without something else really good going back. Of the younger guys I'd prefer the one who hasn't proven he's an NHL player. I'd only move Larkin I'd it was more or less a one for one swap, because he's the only potential high end center. Mantha and AA have shown NHL ability, but if the Jets wanted one I'd do it.
I'd only include the #9 pick if they also sent their first plus another pick.

Insert any other young D potentially available because of the expansion draft. The older or less proven they are the lower the price I'd pay. Myers wouldn't get Svechnikov​, Mantha, or Larkin from me. Maybe AA straight up, but I'd probably want something else.

The bottom line is Detroit has lots of wingers and only one D with top pair potential. Trade what you have for what you need. Farmer Bob has a lot of corn, Farmer Joe has wheat. Bob gives Joe 40 bushels of corn and gets 40 bushels of wheat and both are happy.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

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5 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

It wouldn't take Svechnikov and the #9, unless their first was coming back too. They have to trade him or Myers or lose one for free to Vegas.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk
 

You seriously believe that ? How many times you see big trades occur where teams flip firsts? You always see a top asset along with a first and 2 other components 

 

realistically it's svechnikov and the 9th, sheahan and ouellet type deal they'd want .... And they can always convince enstrom to waive his no trade as there's zero chance he'd get claimed and they'd deal Myers before trouba 

Jets aren't in trouble as you seem to believe they are 

 

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Why would Enstrom waive his NMC unless he was unhappy there?  Why take that chance?  

A top 10 pick and a first round pick from 2 years ago tearing up the AHL playoffs is a huge price, no way they'd need to trade both for just Trouba.  Almost every time a player is rumored to be available we hear "the team is expecting (insert huge package here*) and they almost never get that much.

Schultz only returned a 3rd rounder.

Larson brought Hall, but that looks like addition by subtraction for the Oilers.

Jones for Johansen

Blowmeester brought a conditional first, but with a 4th and 2 lesser prospects.

Compare those to something like Svechnikov/AA with a 2nd and Jensen/XO.  That's a pretty good package.

 

 

*That's what she said

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7 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Why would Enstrom waive his NMC unless he was unhappy there?  Why take that chance?  

A top 10 pick and a first round pick from 2 years ago tearing up the AHL playoffs is a huge price, no way they'd need to trade both for just Trouba.  Almost every time a player is rumored to be available we hear "the team is expecting (insert huge package here*) and they almost never get that much.

Schultz only returned a 3rd rounder.

Larson brought Hall, but that looks like addition by subtraction for the Oilers.

Jones for Johansen

Blowmeester brought a conditional first, but with a 4th and 2 lesser prospects.

Compare those to something like Svechnikov/AA with a 2nd and Jensen/XO.  That's a pretty good package.

 

 

*That's what she said

Weren't you saying before how younger players are unproven ? We all hope svechnikov will be great and I believe so but the jets won't give a f*** he's playing good in the playoffs, lots of past players did the same and were busts 

 

you proved my point with those trade suggestions

 

schultz was a bust before he went to Pittsburgh 

 

Jones for johansen was a #1 d for #1 c basically which we have none to offer for troub a

larsson is similar to trouba and larsson fetched one of the top wingers in the game, you think we'd land trouba for svechnikov , without the 9th and other assets? Come on 

 

pretty sure bouwmeester was  a ufa to be and on a decline

 

svechnikov ouellett  and a 2nd gets it done?i wish I could hear that phone call

 

oh and enstrom waives his clause to help his team cause there's no chance he gets claimed , just like bieksa will, Vegas will want cheaper options with upside, not a 4-5 mill enstrom with declining numbers 

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Take a look at Winnipeg's forward list. Not a whole lot they need to be worried about. They can easily go the 4d+4f route and be much better off whomever they lose than they'd be by trading Trouba for a prospect and a 2nd. 

Nyq already touched on your comparisons somewhat, so I'll just add a couple things. Schultz actually did ok in Edm, but he never seemed to get any recognition, plus he was having a poor year and that was a deadline move. He was undervalued enough that Pit didn't even give him a qualifying offer that summer, and signed him to a lowball UFA deal. I'm not sure if he ever talked to any other teams as a UFA, but it sure seems there was little interest for him. Trouba is pretty the exact opposite of that.

Johansen and Hall are borderline elite players. Similar to Bobby Ryan, who went for a high 1st, plus a Svech-level prospect, plus another prospect. So I don't think either of those trades fits your theory.

You also left out Hamilton (a high first plus two seconds) and Burns (Setoguchi, Coyle, and a low 1st with SJ also getting a 2nd. So roughly the equivalent of SJ giving up a high 2nd). 

I'll never understand how you can place so little value on prospects while also believing other GMs are just dying to give up their young stars to get them.

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1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

I don't put little value on prospects, I just think that you need to be willing to move them in the right deal, and that doesn't just mean offers you can't refuse.

"Right deal", implying that there is such a thing as the wrong deal... but when anyone else suggests that you say they're out of their mind.

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9 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Any of the young forwards for Myers is wrong. Any of them or Cholowski plus picks other than the #9 or lesser players for a top young D is right. Not hard.

Got it...you think you know everything.

 

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5 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Why would Enstrom waive his NMC unless he was unhappy there?  Why take that chance?  

A top 10 pick and a first round pick from 2 years ago tearing up the AHL playoffs is a huge price, no way they'd need to trade both for just Trouba.  Almost every time a player is rumored to be available we hear "the team is expecting (insert huge package here*) and they almost never get that much.

Schultz only returned a 3rd rounder.

Larson brought Hall, but that looks like addition by subtraction for the Oilers.

Jones for Johansen

Blowmeester brought a conditional first, but with a 4th and 2 lesser prospects.

Compare those to something like Svechnikov/AA with a 2nd and Jensen/XO.  That's a pretty good package.

Wait, What?! Hall was a hefty price. Addition by subtraction means you gain just by losing a player. I doubt anyone would say that about Hall.

As for Schultz, no one expected a big return for him, because - as Nyq...future said he was pretty much a bust at the time.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Outside of scoring a lot in the regular season, it's beginning to look like Hall is the bust. He couldn't carry Edmonton to the playoffs and failed to help New Jersey into the playoffs. Maybe it's not his fault, but he better start leading his team into the playoffs soon! And I'm a Hall fan, just seems like he's got a cloud  following him...

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5 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Outside of scoring a lot in the regular season, it's beginning to look like Hall is the bust. He couldn't carry Edmonton to the playoffs and failed to help New Jersey into the playoffs. Maybe it's not his fault, but he better start leading his team into the playoffs soon! And I'm a Hall fan, just seems like he's got a cloud  following him...

Dude, c'mon.

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5 hours ago, kickazz said:

He's lost it

No, just saying, for as good as he is, he hasn't been that guy to carry his team to the playoffs. He may have to alter his game a bit to take himself and his team to the next level. So in that sense he hasn't been such a success. 

Sheesh, everyone always looking for a fight...

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1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

No, just saying, for as good as he is, he hasn't been that guy to carry his team to the playoffs. He may have to alter his game a bit to take himself and his team to the next level. So in that sense he hasn't been such a success. 

Sheesh, everyone always looking for a fight...

Come on Lefty, when you make hyperbolic statements what do you expect. It would be one thing if you said Hall wasnt living up to expectations, saying "it's beginning to look like Hall is the bust" is going to get a reaction out of people.

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6 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

No, just saying, for as good as he is, he hasn't been that guy to carry his team to the playoffs. He may have to alter his game a bit to take himself and his team to the next level. So in that sense he hasn't been such a success.

I mean, sure. Taylor Hall hasn't carried a team into the playoffs. But, personally, I don't feel he should be judged based on that. It's arbitrary, it ignores the fact that the Oilers organization was Clown Shoes Central for the better part of the past decade, and it ignores the fact that the 2016-17 Devils were simply not a playoff team.

(Honestly, I'm not convinced the Oilers have learned anything or become more competent in any really meaningful way. McDavid has singlehandedly saved that franchise, IMHO.)

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3 hours ago, Dabura said:

I mean, sure. Taylor Hall hasn't carried a team into the playoffs. But, personally, I don't feel he should be judged based on that. It's arbitrary, it ignores the fact that the Oilers organization was Clown Shoes Central for the better part of the past decade, and it ignores the fact that the 2016-17 Devils were simply not a playoff team.

(Honestly, I'm not convinced the Oilers have learned anything or become more competent in any really meaningful way. McDavid has singlehandedly saved that franchise, IMHO.)

The only thing I would add to that is the "McDavid effect". What I mean by that, is having him gives the team an advantage in attracting new pieces (Lucic is a perfect example).

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So what are some trades that might be doable to land an extra 1st rounder or 2?

 

was thinking with sekera out longterm mike green + another asset for oilers 1st? Think he'd fit in well with mcdavid draisaitl on those ppl's

 

babcock wanted sheahan and I still believe there's upside  ... Maybe sheahan and a 2nd for leafs 1st?

 

anyways I realize if we make a move it'll be to trade back and land an extra pick , just curious what some of you think would be trades we can pull off to move up 

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6 hours ago, kliq said:

The only thing I would add to that is the "McDavid effect". What I mean by that, is having him gives the team an advantage in attracting new pieces (Lucic is a perfect example).

Yep. McJesus saves! Taylor Hallelujah! The Devils are a liar!

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1 hour ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

So what are some trades that might be doable to land an extra 1st rounder or 2?

was thinking with sekera out longterm mike green + another asset for oilers 1st? Think he'd fit in well with mcdavid draisaitl on those ppl's

babcock wanted sheahan and I still believe there's upside  ... Maybe sheahan and a 2nd for leafs 1st?

anyways I realize if we make a move it'll be to trade back and land an extra pick , just curious what some of you think would be trades we can pull off to move up 

If we're looking to trade up (probably not advisable), our old friend Jim Nill appears to be soft-shopping the #3 pick...

Nill open to trading third overall pick in draft

"I have talked to other teams already about possibly moving that pick, getting an established player back," Nill said during an interview on SiriusXM NHL Network. "It gives us lots of options."

Granted, we hear this kind of talk every year and it rarely leads to anything. But, personally, I get the sense that Nill intends to load up and brute force the Stars back into the playoffs next season. We all know he isn't exactly gun-shy when it comes to impact trades.

Could Tatar/Nyquist + 2nd get it done? (Probably not.) Would it be worth it? (Probably not.)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If we're looking to trade back and get an additional 1st, I think Green + Sheahan + [?] (Holmstrom/Bertuzzi?) could interest Calgary, Toronto, Edmonton, maybe others.

The Flames could open next season with Mark Giordano, Dougie Hamilton, T.J. Brodie, Mike Green (born and raised in Calgary), Matt Bartkowski, Rasmus Andersson, Oliver Kylington. That's arguably a Cup-caliber D group, at least on paper.

Having said all this...the landscape is going to change between now and the entry draft, so what's feasible now may not be feasible then and what's not feasible now may be feasible then.

Edited by Dabura

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