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2017 Draft

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1 minute ago, DickieDunn said:


No, but it's his job to make the final say

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Agreed, but if Holland is the one who gets the criticism when a pick is bad, with that logic should he not get the praise when the pick is good? Not that you have said this Dickie, but this is a consistent narrative on this board.

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44 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Im with you.  He was the right choice based on what was there.  I am just pissed we didnt trade up to get Patrick.  We should have done that at all costs.

Is he a good or bad pick? Personally, im going to do the same thing with Ras that i do with most players. Wait until there's a general consensus on which he is, then argue the oppsite. 

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Agreed, but if Holland is the one who gets the criticism when a pick is bad, with that logic should he not get the praise when the pick is good? Not that you have said this Dickie, but this is a consistent narrative on this board.

He should get credit for the good picks and other moves. And yes, people who just dislike him will blame him for the bad and give everyone else credit for success (Holland had nothing to do with the Wings winning any Cups, all the bad decisions were his, and Yzerman gets the credit for building the Lightning even though he started with some pretty nice cornerstones). And people who think he's fantastic do the opposite.

I just feel this is a very underwhelming pick and there were better choices available. Rasmussen looks a lot like a bigger version of Clarkson. Vilardi is more of a center and still big. Tippett looks like a more talented winger. Or he could have gone with a D, which is a bigger need.

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1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:


No, but it's his job to make the final say

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Not pointing this at you but others who will say the following - 

Good pick - It was Bowman, Devallano, Hakkan, Yzerman, Nill.

Bad pick - Holland makes the final say.

This is as pathetic as it gets. Can't get any worse. Except maybe strapping up Holland in front of the new arena and throwing stones at him with 40 lashes and forcing him to repent for all his decisions. WHY OH WHY DID YOU PICK RASMUSSEN YOU SINNER!

59 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Im with you.  He was the right choice based on what was there.  I am just pissed we didnt trade up to get Patrick.  We should have done that at all costs.

Wait, you actually are okay with this pick?  

Edited by kickazz

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Ah, I love this about the internet. Other people telling me what my general thinking is. :lol:

Of course he needs to get credit for the positives! Picking AA, for example. Picked at #110, other teams for sure want to change their picks before him in retrospect, no doubt. Holland deserves the credit, even if other people made that choice, because he leads and picks those people.

So much for "is this real life?" - ofc it is. If you are a companys CEO, you get the credit for success and the blame for failure, no matter where in your organisation it was actually created.

So for Holland - what was the state of this franchise when he took over, what is it now? Did roster quality stay the same, improve or decrease during his tenure? Did we have rosters who were good enough to win, and how many titles did we actually win?.

It's just like making a "pro" and a "con" list on a sheet of paper and checking which one is longer.

And for Holland, it's "con". That's all I'm saying. I'm not following any agenda, looking in a different direction when he does something good (for example, I credited him for the Smith trade, just because he won it) or hoping for his failure - as long, as he is in charge, I want him to succeed because I want this team to succeed!!

That said, because I want this team to succeed I would prefer a change at GM, because he is simply not good enough.

Edited by The Datsyukian Deke

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I already stated that I am skeptical about our first pick. Despite his size he will need serious polishing in the minors then in GR. My point being that we can't figure him out in quite some time, I'm guessing he'll be on the wings maybe 2, most likely 3 years from now.

Since I'm not getting any younger maybe some young buck wouldn't mind reminding me who this big dude is once he's on the roster and what my initial thoughts were, which is a solid 3rd line center, after some tryouts on the top 6 which failed, albeit not miserably but clearly.

 

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Can we talk about someone besides Rasmussen? Kids Im most excited about:

Lindstrom: Hakan pick, gotta love those. Sure he was taken a bit early, but so was Bertuzzi, and look where he is now. Hakan says today "were gonna work on getting the N out of that name" lulz

Kostkansalo: big reliable defender. Excellent defensive positioning and gap control. I see him as a steady partner for a high flyer like Saarijarvi or Hronek.

Zablocki: disruptive bertuzzi type. Loves to mouth off at opponents and agitate.

Petruzzelli: massive goaltender. Very highly regarded. Many saying he should have went higher. Think we might have a steal here.

Setkov: hakan pick. Mostly unknown on draft day a lot like Datsyuk was, which screams steal in my book. Big and still growing. Excellent outlet passer.

Webb: played very few games so theres a cloud of mystery there. Guessing the wings saw something in him that piqued their interest. The mystery adds a bit of excitement in my mind.

Gilmour: played for Saginaw so we most likely have a big inside track on the kid. Like with Webb, that mysery adds some excitement to me.

Rest of the boys look big and rugged. If anyone has some interesting background on one please share.

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im not overly upset with the pick but i still question it as a fan should, however im more upset with the lack of moving some of our players off this roster and getting some fresh faces in the lineup and change the dynamic of how we look on the ice. Last season was a failure and we should not be going on the ice with the same squad.

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2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Can we talk about someone besides Rasmussen? Kids Im most excited about:

Lindstrom: Hakan pick, gotta love those. Sure he was taken a bit early, but so was Bertuzzi, and look where he is now. Hakan says today "were gonna work on getting the N out of that name" lulz

Kostkansalo: big reliable defender. Excellent defensive positioning and gap control. I see him as a steady partner for a high flyer like Saarijarvi or Hronek.

Zablocki: disruptive bertuzzi type. Loves to mouth off at opponents and agitate.

Petruzzelli: massive goaltender. Very highly regarded. Many saying he should have went higher. Think we might have a steal here.

Setkov: hakan pick. Mostly unknown on draft day a lot like Datsyuk was, which screams steal in my book. Big and still growing. Excellent outlet passer.

Webb: played very few games so theres a cloud of mystery there. Guessing the wings saw something in him that piqued their interest. The mystery adds a bit of excitement in my mind.

Gilmour: played for Saginaw so we most likely have a big inside track on the kid. Like with Webb, that mysery adds some excitement to me.

Rest of the boys look big and rugged. If anyone has some interesting background on one please share.

No.

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2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Can we talk about someone besides Rasmussen? Kids Im most excited about:

Lindstrom: Hakan pick, gotta love those. Sure he was taken a bit early, but so was Bertuzzi, and l

Rest of the boys look big and rugged. If anyone has some interesting background on one please share.

I have seen Lindström play live. He will play top 4 in Red Wings in time, no doubt in my mind. Excellent puck control, forwards and backwards. But he needs work, there is no way he can handle the speed of the NHL yet.

I will be following him in Allsvenskan (2nd highest Swedish league) where he will get top minutes this coming season. I'll write something up if it's noteworthy.

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Every article I read says the same thing basically. I know here at LGW we like to berate Holland, but I've never read so many negative reviews... I am so disappointed. Nothing we can do, even firing him won't change what happened, so I guess we cross our fingers for a diamond to come out...dammit.

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Again the Hakan picks are most likely to blossom into steals, IMHO, but I haven't been following as much due to gigs.  The point about bashing a lack of trades needs to be tempered with the realization that any trades prior to the expansion draft would have needed to be protected by the receiving team.

Of the picks on Day 2, this goalie, Petruzzelli, is the most intriguing to me.  With the Mrazek situation still unfolding, and Coreau not convincing yet, if he is a pleasant surprise, that could help solidify the crease for years.

 

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Well maybe we should tank and go for the closest thing to Lidström that has come up the last 5 years in the next draft. I believe Rasmus Dahlin would have gone first this year, he's eligible next year. In honesty I think we will be in running to be able to draft him next year.

You will hear more about him the coming season. Kid can play.

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8 minutes ago, Jacksoni said:

Well maybe we should tank and go for the closest thing to Lidström that has come up the last 5 years in the next draft. I believe Rasmus Dahlin would have gone first this year, he's eligible next year. In honesty I think we will be in running to be able to draft him next year.

You will hear more about him the coming season. Kid can play.

I can talk about Dahlin all day. Kid is phenomenal. Hes closer to a Karlsson IMO though. Im torn cause i wanna see us tank for Dahlin or A. Svechnikov, but i want both! They could honestly go 1 and 2 next year.

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13 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

You know, kickazz, I'm not gonna fault Holland on the number 9 selection.  That's not an easy one to get right 100% of the time.  I wanted a RIGHT HANDED guy that could make an impact day one.  But I realize that probably meant giving up Larkin and the 9th pick to move up to 2nd.  I would have swung that deal, because I truly believe that we should be taking the mentality that we have no top 6 players other than Mantha right now.  That's 5 spots to fill as quickly as possible.  But Holland doesnt want to totally tear down the team, which I can respect.  So he did alright with big Ras.

Richdg and Jonas are being rational. Holy hell I hope this thread isn't ever deleted. So we can record history of who is going to be eating crow down the road and who isn't. 

Edited by kickazz

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2 hours ago, The Datsyukian Deke said:

So for Holland - what was the state of this franchise when he took over, what is it now? Did roster quality stay the same, improve or decrease during his tenure? Did we have rosters who were good enough to win, and how many titles did we actually win?.

It's just like making a "pro" and a "con" list on a sheet of paper and checking which one is longer.

And for Holland, it's "con". That's all I'm saying. I'm not following any agenda, looking in a different direction when he does something good (for example, I credited him for the Smith trade, just because he won it) or hoping for his failure - as long, as he is in charge, I want him to succeed because I want this team to succeed!!

That said, because I want this team to succeed I would prefer a change at GM, because he is simply not good enough.

Holland took over a team that was a Stanley Cup Champion so you literally couldn't take a team over at a higher high then that. It's really not fair to ask if the team in 1997 is better of worse then the team in 2017.

Either way, IMO to answer you question is this: He took the team over at a high ('97), kept it there for a year, saw a slight regression, brought it higher with putting together one of the best teams in NHL history ('02), saw a regression, then again brought them back up to being champions in 2008, and since then yes has seen a decline. I think there is no question which list is has more on it, its "pro". Now if we are grading based on the criteria of "what have you done for me lately" then no doubt "cons" would take the cake. The question for me, is can he bring this team back. Unfortunately some fans (not saying you) have a tendency of nitpicking and tearing apart every decision he now makes because of where the team is which in all fairness is natural in the cynical nature of sports.

Holland's strong suit is his ability of creating a great culture for his team, and his ability to retain players. When the team was good, he rarely lost a player that he wanted. Holland's biggest fault is his cap management, the guy just doesn't seem to get that you can't pay every player like it's 2006. Contracts today will bite you in the ass tomorrow. I don't think any one single contract was awful (at the time of signing other then the term given to Abby), but collectively he has put the team in a bad position. 

Is Holland good enough to succeed? Honestly, I dont know. If he learns how to manage the cap, I think yes. If he doesnt, I think no.

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Loyalty with top end players is a safe bet that Kenny is historically know for. Unfortunately it is a sticky wicket when doing the same favours to average NHLers, which he's been doing the past few years. This will only catch up with you in the new cap world he has to work in, I can see what he was thinking when he was giving new deals to certain players. But in this era you offer what you feel they are really worth leave it on the table and if they don't take it, thank them for their work and move on. There's plenty of players out there of the same calibre of those that we have, we are not trying to keep a Lidstrom, Rafalski or Stuart on the roster by paying big bucks. The cap crunch we find the Wings in wont get any better for 2 years at least, unless Kenny can somehow offload a couple of the top overpriced contracts he has installed on the roster. This i doubt very much, I mean $20m tied up in 4 D that provided 21 goals in 262 games isn't the best return you'd hope for and not much to entice potential suitors with.

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@kliq: You're right about the early success he had, I just wasn't a fan at that time. Started watching hockey at the beginning of the 2010 season and didn't take long to make the Wings "my" team. And since then, it's most of all like nobody stops the bleeding and rebuilds the team in a proper way.

And yes, overpaying people like E is one of the worst parts about it. :eh:

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