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Richdg

Paul Woods tonight 12/29/16

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1 hour ago, kickazz said:

If you think opinions on Nyquist and Tatar have been scewed hen I would say the same about Dekeyser. He hasn't been good for almost 2 years now. 

I don't think coaching is bad on defense. Defense has been bad since Lidstrom left. That's a player issue. All of Kronwall, XO, Smith, Green and Dekeyser would at best be 2nd pairing guys on good teams. And that's me being generous as I'd see most of them on a third line. Mike Green actually was a 3rd pairing guy in Washington before we signed him. 

Face it, our defensive players just aren't good no matter how genius of a coach you brought in. On the other hand our top offensive guys all have the potential to score 30 goals. Tatar, Nyquist, Larkin, Abdelkader, even possibly even Mantha have been or are on pace to be 20 - 25 + goal scorers in their future. 

The problem isn't the offensive players, it's the fact that our PP has gone to s***. Without a good PP, guys like Nyquist and even Tatar to an extent will suffer. This is a special teams league now. 

There's a huge difference between the way the PP was ran under Babcock and now under Blashill, it's visually there. It's completely broken up, nobody shoots, one-timers are rarely set up the right way, players are playing in a different position on the PP than were under Babcock. 

Just last night the announcers were saying that the Wings PP on the road this year was 2/50, that's 4%! You are 100% right.

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9 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

I still don't understand how a guy who likely tops out as a second line winger is untouchable or how a #1 defenseman isn't worth trading for.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk
 

Personally I would trade Mantha for Trouba in a heartbeat. As for Fowler, I am not 100% sold on him as a #1 d-man. His stats look great on Anaheim, but I am not sure if they would translate here. 11 out of his 22 points are on the PP, so he could only help in that regard. I look at Fowler as a very good #2 or #3 guy. Who knows though, I could be wrong, it's not as if I watch every Ducks game.

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4 minutes ago, kliq said:

Personally I would trade Mantha for Trouba in a heartbeat. As for Fowler, I am not 100% sold on him as a #1 d-man. His stats look great on Anaheim, but I am not sure if they would translate here. 11 out of his 22 points are on the PP, so he could only help in that regard. I look at Fowler as a very good #2 or #3 guy. Who knows though, I could be wrong, it's not as if I watch every Ducks game.

I watched Fowler play us at the Joe and from my seat id say he is a #2 d-man.  Maybe he was just sluggish from travel. Believe he did score in that game, but tatar got a hat trick so there is a God.

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I still maintain my stance that Fowler is no true #1 (contrary to almost everyone on this website). Would not give up Mantha for him. If Fowler came to Detroit $200 says he would get exposed on a bad team. 

Besides as I've already said, Fowler's price would probably be high. Would Mantha even be enough? Danny D just got a $30 million deal and he ain't even a true #2 let alone a #1. 

It's a sellers market. 

Edited by kickazz

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5 minutes ago, kickazz said:

I still maintain my stance that Fowler is no true #1 (contrary to almost everyone on this website). Would not give up Mantha for him. If Fowler came to Detroit $200 says he would get exposed on a bad team. 

Besides as I've already said, Fowler's price would probably be high. It's a sellers market in the NHL anyways.

Almost everyone on the website? I know he's been linked as a trade target, but it's almost unanimous he's the weakest of those rumoured. (Trouba, Hamilton). Strong consensus is he's a #2 or #3. Seems most agree with that from what I've seen.

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10 minutes ago, Son of a Wing said:

Almost everyone on the website? I know he's been linked as a trade target, but it's almost unanimous he's the weakest of those rumoured. (Trouba, Hamilton). Strong consensus is he's a #2 or #3. Seems most agree with that from what I've seen.

Meh, I'm just going off the responses I got when I said that in the summer. People started posting his TOI and claiming he's number one because he plays the minutes etc.

So then for those that want him, if Fowler is indeed a #2 or #3 what good is it getting him. 

Edited by kickazz

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7 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Meh, I'm just going off the responses I got when I said that in the summer. People started posting his TOI and claiming he's number one because he plays the minutes etc.

So then, if Fowler is a #2 or #3 what good is it getting him. 

I agree. I tried to watch him at the game. Nothing really stood out about the guy. After the first period he was just filling space almost. Maybe they need to cut his ice time down. 

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13 minutes ago, joesuffP said:

Fowler will finish the season with close to 15 goals and 50 points playing big minutes every night. That's a #1 defensmen

Trouba will finish close to 25 points and bad in his own zone but he's a superstar apparently

Will? That's a guarantee? 

How many games has Fowler played and how many has Trouba played?

What team does Fowler play on? Who does Trouba play on.

Fowler comes here to a below average team and he'll be exposed. 

FYI Mike Green scored 45 points with Washington before he signed with us. Look what he did last year. Saw a lot of folks here talking some major trash about Green last year. Won't be surprised if the same happened with Fowler if he comes here and doesn't produce as much as he did with Getzlaf and Perry (two elite superstars). 

People go ga ga when they look at numbers and seem to forget what context is. 

Edited by kickazz

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Winnepeg has scored one less goal then Anaheim this season. Trouba has 9 points in 25 games and isn't trusted defensively. Fowler beats him in all areas of what you look for in a defensmen. Fowler plays on a very balanced defense team and is counted on in all situations and produces at the age of 25. His numbers are great and he outplays a lot of great defensmen in Aneheim. Trouba is one dimensional hype that hasn't even translated to points in the NHL yet

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This debate arose because people would trade Mantha for Trouba but not for Fowler who is the much better defensmen in every measurable way

If Fowler came here his offense would take a hit but he would be playing huge minutes. That's what this team needs. We don't need another dman that ends up in the dog house and not playing much in close games cause they're one dimensional. Fowler helps the D core get better offensively and defensively

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Why does our PP suck? Could it be because our F's don't put the puck into the net? Is that not their job? The majority of points scored by a Dman are assists. A typical stat line for the top Dman is 10 goals and 45 points. That is 75% assists. How do Dmen get assists? By F's putting the puck into the net. Both Tatar and Nyquist having shooting %'s below 10%, which is bad. Is that the D's fault that they can't score or theirs? yes in some ways it becomes a chicken vs the egg debate.

I do find it interesting that everytime we all talk about Dmen and our team needs everyone goes to points. How much O that these Dmen produce. How many Dmen score 30 goals? None. Only F's do that. But maybe more important what about their defense? For example Most agree I think that Weber is one of the top 5 Dmen in the league. He has 20 points to date this year. Green has 18 to date and has missed several games due to injury. Does that mean Green is a top 10 Dman in the league? of course not. he doesn't play defense. BTW our O has been producing more lately with Green out of the lineup. I know it means nothing......

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I don't like it. No one D man is going to turn this around. Fire sale your overpaid under performing forwards and D for extra draft picks, play all the kids, try to get the #1 Overall, if you get it, trade it to Calgary for Hamilton and their #1. Draft Foote.

But we all know Holland will try to just make those playoffs. Mantha for Hamilton would ok, but I like my idea better. 

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Our PP sucks because our coaching sucks (relatively). 

2nd best in the league with Babcock.

Worst in the league with Blashill.

Same players with the addition of Larkin, Vanek, Nielsen, and your boy Mantha. Lost Datsyuk but even with him in the line up last year our PP was still terrible. 

Babcock took that PP coach with him when he went to Toronto.

Edited by kickazz

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The only way Detroit gets any D-man worth a damn is if Mantha or Larkin are sent the other way. They truly are the only real top notch assets this team has. Dont make a move. Just blow it up already and go full youth movement. If 1 dman could right the ship I would say go for it but this team needs atleast 3 dmen and a couple forwards.

21 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Larkin really isnt having a bad year by 20 year old standards. Id like to say sophomore slump but i think that whole notion is BS.

The thing that worries me is that Larkin started his "sophomore slump" midway through his rookie year and is yet to break out of it.

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2 hours ago, kickazz said:

Our PP sucks because our coaching sucks (relatively). 

2nd best in the league with Babcock.

Worst in the league with Blashill.

Same players with the addition of Larkin, Vanek, Nielsen, and your boy Mantha. Lost Datsyuk but even with him in the line up last year our PP was still terrible. 

Babcock took that PP coach with him when he went to Toronto.

Yes coaching is part of it, but not all. Most hockey fans think Babcock is the best coach in hockey, by default our coaching is going to be worse. That does not excuse Blashill in any way.

But lets go back to the 2014/15 season. Of the top 10 players in points that year, 2 are not here: Weiss and I can not stress this enough: Datsyuk. he was the PP QB for what ever unit he was on. Neither Larkin or Vanek can hold Datsyuk's jock. But look further. In 14/15 Nyquist and Tatar both had about 14% shooting %'s. This year Nyquist is under 6% and Tatar is just under 11%. In 14/15 Sheahan was about 11% and is a big fat 0 this year. Those 3 had over 70 goals in 14/15 and this year they have 11 to date-on pace for less than 25. Now is that coaching or is it a matter of those guys overperformed and had their career years? I think they over performed and those were their career years. If I am right-we will not know for a couple of years yet, then we can't move a guy like Mantha. We need the scoring.

The other big huge difference between 14/15 and now is Kronwall. He had 44 points in 14/15 or about .50 points per game. This year he ahs 3 points. I can't do the math to figure out how small that is. His pace is about 7 points this year for the season. That is not because of coaching. Injuries are part of it, but a bigger part in Kronwalls case is the 3 guys I mentioned before not putting the puck in the net.

Just one more and unrelated thing. Tuesday night while driving home Mr Woods was talking about making the PO's and what it would take. We will need to be in the 92, 93, 94 point range. After Tuesday nights game we would have needed to go 24 wins, 14 loses and 7 OTL for the rest of the season. Does anyone think we can be 10 games over .500 for the rest of the season? I don't.

 

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21 minutes ago, Richdg said:

Yes coaching is part of it, but not all. Most hockey fans think Babcock is the best coach in hockey, by default our coaching is going to be worse. That does not excuse Blashill in any way.

But lets go back to the 2014/15 season. Of the top 10 players in points that year, 2 are not here: Weiss and I can not stress this enough: Datsyuk. he was the PP QB for what ever unit he was on. Neither Larkin or Vanek can hold Datsyuk's jock. But look further. In 14/15 Nyquist and Tatar both had about 14% shooting %'s. This year Nyquist is under 6% and Tatar is just under 11%. In 14/15 Sheahan was about 11% and is a big fat 0 this year. Those 3 had over 70 goals in 14/15 and this year they have 11 to date-on pace for less than 25. Now is that coaching or is it a matter of those guys overperformed and had their career years? I think they over performed and those were their career years. If I am right-we will not know for a couple of years yet, then we can't move a guy like Mantha. We need the scoring.

You said lets go back to 2014/15. I say lets go back to 2015/16 (last season). We still had Datsyuk. He was out top scorer after Z.

Yet our PP still sucked. Cuz Blashill and Ferschweiler. 

So 2014/15 we have Datsyuk, Weiss, and No Larkin. Our PP is 2nd best in the league. 1st in the league in actual PP goals scored. 

2015/16 we have Datsyuk, Larkin and no Weiss, PP drops to 13th. 

Huge drop between Babs coaching staff and Blashill's. The only difference in players was we had Larkin rather than Weiss. And let's be honest Larkin is better than Weiss. 

It's obvious that when it comes to offense, coaching is the biggest part and of course it's also partially on the players. And as I saud defense is simply a player issue. We're not getting that part fixed until we get some help. No DK, Green or 36 year old Kronner going to fix any of that. 

Edited by kickazz

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2 hours ago, kickazz said:

You said lets go back to 2014/15. I say lets go back to 2015/16 (last season). We still had Datsyuk. He was out top scorer after Z.

Yet our PP still sucked. Cuz Blashill and Ferschweiler. 

So 2014/15 we have Datsyuk, Weiss, and No Larkin. Our PP is 2nd best in the league. 1st in the league in actual PP goals scored. 

2015/16 we have Datsyuk, Larkin and no Weiss, PP drops to 13th. 

Huge drop between Babs coaching staff and Blashill's. The only difference in players was we had Larkin rather than Weiss. And let's be honest Larkin is better than Weiss. 

It's obvious that when it comes to offense, coaching is the biggest part and of course it's also partially on the players. And as I saud defense is simply a player issue. We're not getting that part fixed until we get some help. No DK, Green or 36 year old Kronner going to fix any of that. 

Yes we stepped back and some of that was the coaching change. But some of that is/was the players. Nyquist and tatar began their return to normal last season. Z was terrible the second half-which I expect to happen again this year with the way we are over using him.

But these are all symptoms. Fact is there is no one part of the team that anyone can point to and say we are set at this position. G was going good but now Howard can't stay healthy. Mrazek has stepped back and Coreau isn't the answer. We need help everywhere: coaching, forwards, defensemen, and G's.

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Acquiring a young #1 defensmen will go a long way in this team finally discovering their identity

Fowler - Green

Dekesyer - ?

close to a respectable top four

Are we really going to wait 7 years and hope Cholowiski, Saarijarvi or 2017 draft pick turn into a top pairing defensmen?

We get 6-7 years of good D from Dekeseyer and Fowler, Green will be gone, prospects will be up and our high end forwards should be impact players. Could have a good team in 2-3 years if we make a nice FA signing plus some guys develop nicely on D. We won't be good if we plan on drafting and developing our #1 for 7-8 years. Mantha and AA will be 30 and played their entire careers without a defense. The core of the defense has to be in place as soon as possible

Teams like Colorado,Toronto and Buffalo all have one thing in common. Bad defense. Wasted a lot of their prospects potential because a team can't function and grow without a decent defense group. That's why the wings look like they are seemingly bad at everything

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