Mid Season review

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Zetterberg has been as good or better than expected, the best player on the team despite his age and the fact that he's half the player he was a few years ago.  

Vanek is playing well, too.  He's right at the top of where I expected him to be.

 Mantha is showing why he should have been on the roster from day 1 playing on the second or first line.

Larkin is playing fairly well, although he has plenty of room to go.  His numbers would look better if he had linemates who could do anything at all.

Nielsen is what I thought he'd be, an overpaid 2nd line center being asked to do more than he's capable of doing and locked up for FAR too long.

Nyquist and Tatar continue to disappoint.  

AA is better than Trashill is giving him credit for and needs to be used more.

Abdelkader 8 points in 22 games before he got hurt, about what I expected.  Still not worth that deal.

Helm started hot then predictably fell off before getting hurt, also a bad contract.

Sheahan has the size to be effective but is softer than a new born bunny.

Glendening is an average 4th line center, probably wouldn't be in the lineup on a good team, has one goal, and is going to be making $7.2 million over the next 4 years.  Well done Kenny

Miller is a warm body

Ott is bad.  Dumb penalties, no offense, and gets beat when he tries to fight.

Jurco continues to be misused.  He's not a checker.  Give him time on a scoring line without the threat of benching for a single bad shift

Kronwall is a warrior, but a warrior with one good leg.  

Ericsson is a waste of space

Green has been good this year, should fetch a high pick/prospect if Holland is smart enough to move him

Dekeyser is in over his head on the top pair.  Get a top pair guy and move him to the second unit he'd be fine.

Sproul has issues defensively, but he could be an effective player in a limited role if he was used properly

XO can do a lot of things well, but doesn't excel at anything.  Decent 3rd pair guy, probably not a lot more than that.

Jensen has good speed but too weak to do much in the NHL.  Decent depth guy

Marchenko: See XO

Blashill.  Fire this guy now.  On another board with less moderation, I replace the -ll in his name with a -thead.  worst coach in the NHL by a wide margin.  Values hard work over talent, misuses players, and tries to be Babcock Jr.  He fails.  Every time I see him I want to punch him.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Really simple:
better than expected: Z, Vanek, Green, Howard
Good: Larkin, Mantha, AA, Ott brings grit and has a very low caphit
Average: Danny D., Sproul
Others oh well....

[Richdg 267]

7 minutes ago, frankgrimes said:

Really simple:
better than expected: Z, Vanek, Green, Howard
Good: Larkin, Mantha, AA, Ott brings grit and has a very low caphit
Average: Danny D., Sproul
Others oh well....

 

 

 

Agree. The scary part is where are we if Z falls off in the second half like the last 2 years, Vanek is traded, Green is traded, and Howard can't get healthy. This could still get worse this year. I would add Oullett and Jensen to your average list. Both have played well overall.

Flat out stink: Nyquist, Kronwall, Ericsson, Smith, Sheahan (offensively anyway), Helm, Miller

[BringBack19 110]

Dickie- I agree with every point you make other than XO. I think he could develop into a good 2nd pair maybe even a serviceable #2. But other than that I think you hit the nail on the head which is why we are staring a top 5 pick in the face...

[frankgrimes 1,836]

1 hour ago, Richdg said:

Agree. The scary part is where are we if Z falls off in the second half like the last 2 years, Vanek is traded, Green is traded, and Howard can't get healthy. This could still get worse this year. I would add Oullett and Jensen to your average list. Both have played well overall.

Flat out stink: Nyquist, Kronwall, Ericsson, Smith, Sheahan (offensively anyway), Helm, Miller

That's why this pick needs to be kept it could be a really really good one, everything between 1 - 5 is really possible!

[ami 273]

Very fair evaluation DickieDunn, but wrong perspective. At this point all players (with one or two exceptions) needs to be evaluated for what we can get for trading/dumping him; like this:

 

5 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

....
Green has been good this year, should fetch a high pick/prospect if Holland is smart enough to move him.....

And could not agree more with Blash's

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

Real quick.

Beginning:  We sucked a little

Midway:  We suck a lot

Sorry, I know you wanted something a little more constructive.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

8 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Like all your takes, except Jensen.  He is way better than advertised.  He actually plays with GOAL SCORING in mind.  That is refreshing to see on a team of players afraid of the coach.

He still has below average NHL ability.  Mind set is only a part of the equation.

[kickazz 5,459]

Jurco has 0 points in 11 games and yet excuses stll made and everyone else truthfully shat on. Loving the bias here.  

[krsmith17 7,191]

If you really think Jurco has been given a fair shot, I don't know what to say... If Jurco was given the same rope as Sheahan, or basically any under achieving player on this team he would be producing... The skill is there, I have no idea why he's in Blashill's dog house, other than the fact that Blash is a complete moron...

[frankgrimes 1,836]

I can't wait till this team finally gets some real young talent and no more hoping that some players might turn out better than expected. No more waiting 3 plus years to let a player overripe. And hopefully more players with heart, size and the willingness to stand up for themselves.
Three more losses in a row and scouts can finally prepare for the draft.
Time to move on from this Wings edition and build one that's better and more entertaining to watch and follow.
Mid season is speaking volumes and other than 2 maybe 4 players I don't care who leaves...the more picks, peospects the better.

[kickazz 5,459]

I'm not even sure if it's a question of "fair shot" for Jurco anymore.  Even Drew Miller has a better scoring rate than Jurco and Miller is a 4th line regular. Same with Ott. 

Edited January 10, 2017 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

How is it not about a fair shot? You say how Miller and Ott have a better scoring rate, but again, they both continue to get the ice time, while Jurco sits in the press box... You can't be arguing that Miller and Ott are better hockey players than Jurco... Like I've always said, and I still stand by this, give Jurco a 10 game stint with legitimate linemates, let him play his game, and he would impress. F*** off giving him 2 games and scratching him after seeing limited ice time with Glendening, Miller, Ott, Sheahan, etc... He's not a "grinder", stop treating him as one...

[kylee 727]

only bright spots have been Zetterberg, Mantha, Vanek and Green. 

[gcom007 1,465]

On 1/9/2017 at 2:32 PM, DickieDunn said:

Blashill.  Fire this guy now.  On another board with less moderation, I replace the -ll in his name with a -thead.  worst coach in the NHL by a wide margin.  Values hard work over talent, misuses players, and tries to be Babcock Jr.  He fails.  Every time I see him I want to punch him.

But this guy's won at every level. We have no reason to believe he won't be successful in the NHL. The kids will listen to him. Kill me.

[xault 272]

Yep... Sounds about right.

[kickazz 5,459]

7 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

How is it not about a fair shot? You say how Miller and Ott have a better scoring rate, but again, they both continue to get the ice time, while Jurco sits in the press box... You can't be arguing that Miller and Ott are better hockey players than Jurco... Like I've always said, and I still stand by this, give Jurco a 10 game stint with legitimate linemates, let him play his game, and he would impress. F*** off giving him 2 games and scratching him after seeing limited ice time with Glendening, Miller, Ott, Sheahan, etc... He's not a "grinder", stop treating him as one...

It doesn't matter if Miller or Jurco are better. I'm just pointing out facts and the numbers are there for everyone to see. 0 points in 11 games.

I've seen AA score on the 4th line with limited minutes and play with the same crappy linemates Jurco gets. Seen AA scratched for games, come back and score goals. 

Nobody asked AA to be a grinder when he was on the 4th line. Nobody asked Jurco to simply be a grinder on the 4th line either. I'm not sure where this narrative is coming from. If he has the ability to score, he should be able to do it.

Anyways I did some digging quickly to look at what linemates Jurco has been with overall. Someone else could probably do this in more depth. But here his linemates since 2015/16 season. 53 TOI with Andersson and Glendog but also a chunk with AA, Nyquist, Helm, Sheahan and Tatar with Glendening on a line with Helm. His CF% was actually worse with Sheahan and Nyquist than it was with Andersson and Glendening combo.

The pic below is just a variation of the one above from another website

And here are his combinations in the current season:

Linemates with Glendening but also with Nielsen, Larkin, AA. 

So no, Jurco isn't just plugged in with bad linemates, his TOI shows he's played with other linemates plenty of times. The numbers are there. Ironically it looks like Babcock actually used Jurco with Miller and Glendening more than Blashill did. 

Edited January 11, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

At best they could reunite the Sheahan, Tatar, Jurco line since all 3 are underperforming but have previous chemistry. But in order to do that you would have to instill something called a "Brain" into Jeff Blashill's head.

Mantha and Zetterberg need a better linemate anyways. Maybe Nyqyuist might mesh well with them. 

Edited January 11, 2017 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

You say that "it doesn't matter if Miller or Jurco are better", then go on to compare him to Athanasiou. Jurco is scratched over Miller, despite Jurco being the MUCH better hockey player. Jurco isn't Athanasiou. AA can make something out of nothing with speed alone. He doesn't need to be surrounded by good players to make things happen. Jurco does, same way Tatar or Nyquist or countless other skilled players need to play with other skilled players.

Your graphic also shows that he plays half his time with Glendening, and a third of his time with Ott. That's terrible. Sure, he plays a scattered shift with good players, I never argued that. My point is that he has never (since his rookie season) has seen significant time with skilled players. Again, give him a 10 game stint on a line with Tatar and Larkin, and I'd be shocked if he (they) didn't produce.

Was Jurco the worst player on the ice last game? Hell no, not even close. But yet he's the odd man out. Why is it that literally every single player can have bad shifts, bad games, bad stretches of games, but they will never get scratched? But Jurco dogs it on one backcheck, one shift in on game, and he gets scratched for 7 games... Because Blashill is a f***ing moron...

[kickazz 5,459]

I was responding to you that I made no claim who was better between Miller and Jurco but simply that Miller has a better scoring rate. But I am comparing AA to Jurco brcause the claim is Jurco has bad linemates and that's the reason he's underperforming. That doesn't really add up when you look other players who have bad line mates. The others are able to carry their own weight.

I do wonder though, with all the hype with Jurco and him supposedly being a good hockey player, why is a 4th line terrible hockey player like Miller outproducing him (and Sheahan)? Not like Miller gets any skilled players to help him.

And like I pointed out earlier, Jurco did better with Andersson and Glendening than he did with Sheahan and Nyquist.

Jurco just isn't a good NHL player right now. You can blame Glendog all you want but no matter who he plays with, his play doesn't vastly improve.

A lot of you are basically asking for him to get carried. Sorry but Blashcock aint lettin that happen.

His best way to maintain himself on lineup was to be a big body and be a checker. He couldn't do it. You say he needs skilled linemates, well the skilled linemates are being used for other things like getting themselves some points and tryng to get wins. Jurco has to find a way on his own or he'll quickly be out of the NHL.

Edited January 11, 2017 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

You continue to avoid the main point / reason Jurco has struggled, so here it is again...

Jurco continues to get scratched for no reason at all (unless it's practice related... doubt it), while literally every other player on the team can do no wrong, certainly not enough to get scratched anyway... There are "maybe" two forwards on the entire team that you could argue should not ever be scratched due to lackluster play. Other than that, every single player has had stretches as bad or worse than Jurco before his inevitable scratch...

Do you honestly think that if Tatar or Nyquist were scratched in all but 11 games this year, playing mostly on a line with Glendening / Ott and a scattered shift with Nielsen / Larkin they'd be producing? Not a chance, they're finding it hard enough to produce with skilled players...

Do you honestly think that if Jurco were given an extended stretch on a line with Zetterberg / Mantha or Nielsen / Vanek that he wouldn't be producing? He absolutely would be...

Anyway, I'm done with this. Until Jurco actually gets a legit shot on this team (or another team), people will continue to discredit his skill.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

90% of pro sports is mental. Jurco's confidence has to be in the gutter with how he's been treated. Get his confidence up and I think he can be a 20 goal guy.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

[kliq 3,755]

9 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

90% of pro sports is mental. Jurco's confidence has to be in the gutter with how he's been treated. Get his confidence up and I think he can be a 20 goal guy.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk
 

There is probably a lot of truth to this. The handling of Jurco has been awful, but at the same time he hasnt done himself any favors.

[THATANK911 17]

Doing well: Z, Mantha, Vanek, Howard, Nielsen (self explained)

Larkin just doesnt have the tools around him all the time for him to produce on the stat sheet. He has room to grow. Not even 21 yet i dont think.

Green started well and cooled the jets like most did after win streak then injury

AA just needs playing time and coaching and a swift kick in the butt from time to time

Tatar aka TATOR TOT plays some really amazing games, then some you dont even notice if hes out there. 

Nyquist plays hard and creates scoring chances, he just needs a puck to drop 

ABBy banged up this year but gets us a guy in the middle and plays hard, brings physical side to the game

Glenndog plays hard, another one of those guys whos output will reflect those around him

Helm injury

KORN the hits have now shown the price that must be paid. 

Petr hes not going to win you games, he is only going to keep you a float or will shine if you have a good team around him

OTT still plays old school hockey and screws with kids minds and that don't show up in the stat sheet. Plus its muy comico.

XO has played some really good games this year and just needs to work on bringing that everygame

Jensen kid has heart and a motor, hes going to get beat and lacks size but he plays hard, we need that and him alot this season even if its only for one season

DEFENSE SUCKS

PP sucks 

PK is okay

[kickazz 5,459]

6 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

You continue to avoid the main point / reason Jurco has struggled, so here it is again...

Jurco continues to get scratched for no reason at all (unless it's practice related... doubt it), while literally every other player on the team can do no wrong, certainly not enough to get scratched anyway... There are "maybe" two forwards on the entire team that you could argue should not ever be scratched due to lackluster play. Other than that, every single player has had stretches as bad or worse than Jurco before his inevitable scratch...

Do you honestly think that if Tatar or Nyquist were scratched in all but 11 games this year, playing mostly on a line with Glendening / Ott and a scattered shift with Nielsen / Larkin they'd be producing? Not a chance, they're finding it hard enough to produce with skilled players...

Do you honestly think that if Jurco were given an extended stretch on a line with Zetterberg / Mantha or Nielsen / Vanek that he wouldn't be producing? He absolutely would be...

Anyway, I'm done with this. Until Jurco actually gets a legit shot on this team (or another team), people will continue to discredit his skill.

I'm not avoiding anything. That hasn't been a discussion about the reasons of his struggles but merely about his production and linemates. But if you want me to talk about the reason he's struggled then it's most likely because he's not an NHL caliber player as of now. Maybe eventually but I don't know that. He was a good AHL player that seems to be having a hard time transitioning into the NHL. Even with having the linemates he did (Glendening, Miller, Ott) he should still be able to individually produce. Glendening and Miller can both put up numbers for their 4th line level . So why can't Jurco? If Jurco actually had better production than Miller and Glendening then I'd probably agree that they are the reason he's being held back. But on the contrary they are outproducing him . This has become more about Jurco rather than his linemates. If you asked me in 2015, I would have probably said that the other two guys must be holding him back. But Jurco's decline has been pretty bad. 

It's alarming that Luke Glendening had 21 points in 81 games last year while Jurco had 6 points in 44 games. It's alarming that Miller currently has 6 points in 30 games and Jurco has 0 in 11. 

And you know I'm not a fan of either Glendening or Miller so there's no reason for me to try to make them look good. As of now I think Sheahan has been a colossal failure (this season) and Jurco just can't help himself and is likely going to be exiting the NHL sooner rather than later. Just like Pulkinnen did. I won't be upset if he proves me wrong though, I'd probably be very happy because we need all the help we can get. 

If a player is scratched like Jurco is, it means the club doesn't see him as a suitable player on the roster. When he's put into the roster he needs to produce. If he doesn't produce he's likely going to get scratched again and again and again. There's literally no way around this scenario unless there were injuries. Sheahan is likely in the lineup because he can play both center and wing. Centers are far too valuable in this league compared to wingers. 

And I'm sure Jurco's confidence is in the gutter right now. But whose problem is that? His and his alone. Ain't Blashbaldy's problem. I sound blunt but you know that's exactly how these people think. They got their own jobs to worry about. 

Anyways my original point is that making excuses for Jurco and pretending like he's not at fault is taking it a bit too far (Dickie's original post). Sure he's been dealt a bad hand. Sure he hasn't been utilized like some people hoped he would have. But that is no excuse for him not being able to show some signs of being an NHL caliber player. Blame Blashill and Babcock all you want, ultimately the responsibility is Jurco's to prove himself. Ain't nobody going to do it for him. 

Edited January 12, 2017 by kickazz