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LeftWinger

Goodbye Ken Holland?

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I agree with GMRwings1983, at this very moment and the last 2-3 season Yzerman has been a better GM.

I also disagree with anyone thinking Yzerman just gonna walk away from TB the sec Holland done. To me that wouldn't be the Yzerman I grow up watching. He wouldn't just leave, it would be very classless. I have no idea what his contract is or how a GM contracts work. But I cannot see him just up and leaving after all hes done in TB. Yzerman is as loyal as he is all world class. It would be a classless and dishonest move to just bounce on any contract he has with TB. If he finishes his contract in TB than comes here, that's something I can believe.

Anyone know Yzerman contract with TB at this moment? 

Edited by xault

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1 hour ago, kliq said:

Lets just say for conversation sake Holland had nothing to do with 98 and 02, what is your reason to discredit him for 2008?

At the end of the day Yzerman has not won a cup, I dont see how you can say he is clearly the better GM. I do think that Yzerman has made better moves in that past few years and appears to understand the cap better then Holland and yes, in 2018 if I had to choose I would choose Yzerman, but you are making it sound like Yzerman has had a better career as a GM then Holland which is a joke.

I agree. Holland has the hardware to prove he was very good over most of his career. I think recently though a lot of his tools have been stripped from him... Yzerman, Nill, Babcock, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, various scouts. So basically he lost his right hand and left hand man, and they both took the staff underneath them that they liked. One of the top 5 coaches in the league leaves to a divionsal rival. Arguably the best Dman ever hangs em up, and his franchise center goes to Russia. And all those pieces were replaced by assests of lesser talent. Now I believe all these circumstances were mostly outside of his control. But hes failed to replace them with high end talent in the pipeline. Filppula/Hudler was a failed project. Nyquist/Tatar is looking like a failed project. Brunner failed project. Weiss failed project. Quincey, Ericsson, Smith, Kindl, all failures. Alfredsson, Vanek, Green are the only notable good moves recently. Now the new direction seems to be AA, Larkin, and Mantha, a hodge podge of young Dmen, and Mrazek. And each of those players, while promising, have blemishes on their record. Some of those blemishes could be the fault of our new sub par coach though. Hopefully they are.

I'm rambling.

I think Holland has certainly tried, hes just failed to connect recently. Meanwile Yzerman has made a bunch of bad moves as well, but a few of his moves really paid off. Stralman project was huge. Johnson project paid off. Kucherov worked out. Handled the St. Louis, Drouin, and Stamkos dilemmas like a gangster. Bishop and Vasilevsky (a pick we gave them for failed project quincey) worked out well. On the flipside, Garrison and Carle didnt work out. He gave up Gudas for Coburn which was dumb. Filppulas not working out. The Lindback trade was a failure. Yzerman just has positives to go along with his negatives recently. Even with their injuries and down year that team is drafting very well and making a lot of good choices with players.

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4 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

No, I didn't.  I said he's a better GM (meaning now).  

The insinuation was pretty clear, you said:

 "there's no doubt who the better GM is.  When Holland started his GM career, he had an unlimited cap and a tremendous roster to start with.  The Cups came naturally"

This is essentially your way of negating Holland's cup wins.

4 hours ago, xault said:

I also disagree with anyone thinking Yzerman just gonna walk away from TB the sec Holland done. To me that wouldn't be the Yzerman I grow up watching. He wouldn't just leave, it would be very classless. I have no idea what his contract is or how a GM contracts work. But I cannot see him just up and leaving after all hes done in TB. Yzerman is as loyal as he is all world class. It would be a classless and dishonest move to just bounce on any contract he has with TB. If he finishes his contract in TB than comes here, that's something I can believe.

Anyone know Yzerman contract with TB at this moment? 

Nobody is saying he would walk away, I dont even think you are allowed to do that. Both Yzerman and Holland have their contracts ending in 2018, the thought of some is that Holland would take a role else where with the team (ie. president) allowing Yzerman to come in and become the new GM.

Edited by kliq

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3 hours ago, xault said:

I agree with GMRwings1983, at this very moment and the last 2-3 season Yzerman has been a better GM.

I also disagree with anyone thinking Yzerman just gonna walk away from TB the sec Holland done. To me that wouldn't be the Yzerman I grow up watching. He wouldn't just leave, it would be very classless. I have no idea what his contract is or how a GM contracts work. But I cannot see him just up and leaving after all hes done in TB. Yzerman is as loyal as he is all world class. It would be a classless and dishonest move to just bounce on any contract he has with TB. If he finishes his contract in TB than comes here, that's something I can believe.

Anyone know Yzerman contract with TB at this moment? 

BOTH He and Holland's contracts have one more season.

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2 hours ago, kliq said:

The insinuation was pretty clear, you said:

 "there's no doubt who the better GM is.  When Holland started his GM career, he had an unlimited cap and a tremendous roster to start with.  The Cups came naturally"

This is essentially your way of negating Holland's cup wins.

Nobody is saying he would walk away, I dont even think you are allowed to do that. Both Yzerman and Holland have their contracts ending in 2018, the thought of some is that Holland would take a role else where with the team (ie. president) allowing Yzerman to come in and become the new GM.

Well, that's your opinion, but I just clarified what my stance is.  No insinuation is needed.  

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1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Well, that's your opinion, but I just clarified what my stance is.  No insinuation is needed.  

There is no point for me to go back and forth with you, in the end what you said I agree with so let's leave it at that.

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GM Steve Yzerman:

2010-11 Conference Finals (Lost 3-4 to Boston)

2011-12 Missed Playoffs

2012-13 Missed Playoffs

2013-14 Lost in 1st Round

2014-15 Stanley Cup Finals (lost 2-4 to Chicago)

2015-16 Conference Finals (lost 3-4 Pittsburgh)

 

GM Ken Holland:

2010-11 Conference Semi-Finals (Lost 3-4 to San Jose)*

2011-12 Lost in 1st Round (1-4 to Nashville)

2012-13 Conference Semi-Finals (Lost 3-4 to Chicago)*

2013-14 Lost in 1st Round (1-4 to Boston)*

2014-15 Lost in 1st Round (3-4 to Tampa Bay)*

2015-16 Lost in 1st Round (1-4 to Tampa Bay)

*Coached by arguably one of the best coaches in the league, Mike Babcock

If you look at young talent joining the Lightning compared to the Wings, plus more aggressive trades along with keeping his talented core, Yzerman is pretty darn good.

Kenny isn't the worst, but overpaying our guys coupled with some bad FA's and very weak trades gives Stevie the edge since he began his GM career.

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Yes Holland needs to go. Ive been as big of a supporter of Holland as anyone, but his time is done here. I just want to know why everyone is acting like yzerman will be the saviour we've all dreamed of? I can make 40 trades, but that doesn't guarantee me a cup either. Yzerman hasn't gotten the team a cup. He's got close but no cup. 

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1 hour ago, Euro_Twins said:

Yes Holland needs to go. Ive been as big of a supporter of Holland as anyone, but his time is done here. I just want to know why everyone is acting like yzerman will be the saviour we've all dreamed of? I can make 40 trades, but that doesn't guarantee me a cup either. Yzerman hasn't gotten the team a cup. He's got close but no cup. 

Well, that and the thing that's a bit annoying is people give Yzerman credit for all the Tampa moves including the ones he actually hasn't made and happened before he got there but when it comes to Holland "it was all Scotty Bowman". 

Personally I would be happy with Yzerman coming here because I believe he's a good GM and he would be a good candidate, BUT good doesn't mean AMaZing, by any means. I'd take hire him if there are no better suitors. For instance if Lou Lamoriello was available, I believe he would be the better choice over Yzerman. 

I think for me, a new GM would be nice just for the sake of having a new voice leading the way. I fully believe even GM's voices can get stale and Holland's time has expired just like Babcock's did. 

Edited by kickazz

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On 2/11/2017 at 0:20 PM, kliq said:

Lets just say for conversation sake Holland had nothing to do with 98 and 02, what is your reason to discredit him for 2008?

At the end of the day Yzerman has not won a cup, I dont see how you can say he is clearly the better GM. I do think that Yzerman has made better moves in that past few years and appears to understand the cap better then Holland and yes, in 2018 if I had to choose I would choose Yzerman, but you are making it sound like Yzerman has had a better career as a GM then Holland which is a joke.

He's had the better career since he parted ways with us. Granted he inherited a team with Hedman and Stamkos.

Hollands career should not be discredited because of the currrent state of the team. He has more accomplishments than most GMs will ever dream of.

That being said, Id still rather have Yzerman. Cup or not, it's clear he's in tune with todays game.

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2 hours ago, shocky2002 said:

IMO, in order of importance to the cup wins

1. Bowman

2. Jimmy D

3. Hakan Anderson

4. Mike Ilitch

5. Steve Yzerman

6. Holland

No offense, but Holland's only Cup that he pretty much built was 2008. Fedorov had just as much importance to the 3 prior as Yzerman did as did Lidstrom.

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2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

No offense, but Holland's only Cup that he pretty much built was 2008. Fedorov had just as much importance to the 3 prior as Yzerman did as did Lidstrom.

How many Conn Smyth's did Fedorov win? 

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5 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

No offense, but Holland's only Cup that he pretty much built was 2008. Fedorov had just as much importance to the 3 prior as Yzerman did as did Lidstrom.

As far as 2008, this is the order of importance.

1. Lidstrom

2. Zetterberg

3. Downey

4. Lilja

5. Anderson

6. Osgood

7. Holland

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49 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

As far as 2008, this is the order of importance.

1. Lidstrom

2. Zetterberg

3. Downey

4. Lilja

5. Anderson

6. Osgood

7. Holland

Hey GMR, why didn't we repeat in '09? Was it injuries? Or Malkin not getting suspended in the finals?

No. Aaron Downey played 56 games for us in 08, and only 4 in 09. The proof is in the pudding.

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28 minutes ago, Detroit # 1 Fan said:

Hey GMR, why didn't we repeat in '09? Was it injuries? Or Malkin not getting suspended in the finals?

No. Aaron Downey played 56 games for us in 08, and only 4 in 09. The proof is in the pudding.

I don't like to talk about it anymore.  

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8 hours ago, kickazz said:

How many Conn Smyth's did Fedorov win? 

How many players was Holland responsible for drafting or acquiring on the 97 and 98 Cups? Why did he trade Vernon after 97? Sure we won in 98, but What could've been in 99 had he kept the Jennings award tandem of him and Ozzie together for a few more years. Three-peat? More?

To insinuate that Feds was not important to those Cups along with 2002, then you just weren't watching.

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2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

How many players was Holland responsible for drafting or acquiring on the 97 and 98 Cups? Why did he trade Vernon after 97? Sure we won in 98, but What could've been in 99 had he kept the Jennings award tandem of him and Ozzie together for a few more years. Three-peat? More?

To insinuate that Feds was not important to those Cups along with 2002, then you just weren't watching.

Who said he wasn't important? You said he was "as important" but I say the Conn Smyth trophy's say otherwise. So he's lower on the list than Yzerman and Lidstrom. 

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