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LeftWinger

Goodbye Ken Holland?

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How many players was Holland responsible for drafting or acquiring on the 97 and 98 Cups? Why did he trade Vernon after 97? Sure we won in 98, but What could've been in 99 had he kept the Jennings award tandem of him and Ozzie together for a few more years. Three-peat? More?
To insinuate that Feds was not important to those Cups along with 2002, then you just weren't watching.

Vernon needed to be moved to give Osgood the clear #1 spot. Goal tending was not the reason they didn't win 3 in a row.

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6 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

How many players was Holland responsible for drafting or acquiring on the 97 and 98 Cups? Why did he trade Vernon after 97? Sure we won in 98, but What could've been in 99 had he kept the Jennings award tandem of him and Ozzie together for a few more years. Three-peat? More?

To insinuate that Feds was not important to those Cups along with 2002, then you just weren't watching.

Considering before he was GM he was Director of Amateur Scouting, he likely had to do with a lot of the guys drafted on the 97 team.

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34 minutes ago, kliq said:

Considering before he was GM he was Director of Amateur Scouting, he likely had to do with a lot of the guys drafted on the 97 team.

He was Western Canada Scout from 85-87, He was Amateur Director From 87-94, Asst. GM from 94 to 97...

Players from the team he maybe, MAYBE had something to do with the scouting were:

Pushor - Drafted 91

Osgood - Drafted 91

McCarty - Drafted 92

LaPointe - Drafted 91

Dandenault - Drafted 94

I give Haken the European guys, the rest were either signed as FA's, traded for or here in the 80's.

MAYBE he was responsible for Kocur out of Saskatoon, but I'm not so sure Saskatchewan is Western Canada...at least geographically it's not, but he may have been a scout there.

16 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Seriously? Most of them. Shared responsibility is still responsibility. 

Barely ANY of them see above...

and to your Conn Smythe question, I was simply putting Fedorov and Lidstrom above Holland, stating they were just as important than Yzerman. The post I was replying to had Holland behind Yzerman and no Feds or Lids at all.

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This team can't even compete for the best owner in all of sports. I'm done with that sorry excuse of a team wearing the winged wheel on their chest.

I want someone from the outside coming in with full authority to clean house, like Toronto did under Shanahan.

Larkin, Mantha, AA, Danny D. are pieces to build around other than them good bye and it's also time for the architect of this to take responsibility and move up or out.

He did a lot of great things but he has no clue how to do a rebuild which is ok he never had to go through one. Bring in Maloney and Hitchcock please


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7 hours ago, kickazz said:

Who said he wasn't important? You said he was "as important" but I say the Conn Smyth trophy's say otherwise. So he's lower on the list than Yzerman and Lidstrom. 

You can only award the Conn Smythe to one player. Doesn't mean another playing wasn't just as important. 2008, Osgood was hands down the front runners for the trophy, until game 6 when Zetterberg put on a clinic, especially a 5 on 3 penalty kill for the ages. But game 6 by Z or not, they don't win the Cup without Osgood...or, and it makes me puke in my mouth, Franzen.

As a matter of fact, in 02 Hasek should have won it over Lidstrom. He also should've gotten the Vezina. 

Edited by LeftWinger

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1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

You can only award the Conn Smythe to one player. Doesn't mean another playing wasn't just as important. 2008, Osgood was hands down the front runners for the trophy, until game 6 when Zetterberg put on a clinic, especially a 5 on 3 penalty kill for the ages. But game 6 by Z or not, they don't win the Cup without Osgood...or, and it makes me puke in my mouth, Franzen.

As a matter of fact, in 02 Hasek should have won it over Lidstrom. He also should've gotten the Vezina. 

Ok but in 98 and 02 Yzerman put up more points than Fedorov and he did that in 02 with one leg, not to mention Yzerman was well into his 30s when he was doing all this and on a downward trend. Do you see my point? One person had a disadvantage and did more, which to me would put him above. 

Either way, Holland was partly responsible since the day he took his job under the franchise. You're acting like Hakan found some guys and nobody had a say in anything. Just like in any management scenario, people put their heads together and decide, it's not just one guy. 

Edited by kickazz

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7 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Just gonna throw this out there, but how long did Bowman put Fedorov on D?

My memory is a bit foggy, but I seem to recall it was stints during 1, or possibly 2 seasons.

I do recall Feds looking like a natural on the back end...He would've been a Norris Trophy candidate had he remained there.

Not in 98 or 02. He played foward. He played defense in the 97 season. And yes when he did play on D he was great. Better than Dandelnault thats for sure. 

Edited by kickazz

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5 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

He was Western Canada Scout from 85-87, He was Amateur Director From 87-94, Asst. GM from 94 to 97...

Players from the team he maybe, MAYBE had something to do with the scouting were:

Pushor - Drafted 91

Osgood - Drafted 91

McCarty - Drafted 92

LaPointe - Drafted 91

Dandenault - Drafted 94

I give Haken the European guys, the rest were either signed as FA's, traded for or here in the 80's.

MAYBE he was responsible for Kocur out of Saskatoon, but I'm not so sure Saskatchewan is Western Canada...at least geographically it's not, but he may have been a scout there.

 

Like Kickazz said, its a team effort. One person is not 100% responsible for anything in sports. When Holland was first on the wings, we was a member of the management team, in 1998, he become the leader of that team. To say, this was all because of Haken, that was Holland, this was Nill, that was Bowman etc. etc. etc. is nothing but speculation on your part. You don't know because you were not in the room when these players were discussed. You clearly are saying everything you can to tell the narrative of "Holland had nothing to do with anything" which is just BS. If you are unhappy with some of the moves he has made over the past few years, I 100% get it. To dismiss every accomplishment he has ever had is just wrong.

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6 hours ago, Fedorovfan said:

It's about time there was a story that presents the total truth. Holland has screwed the team up royally just to keep The Streak going in order to keep his job. His free agent signings and contract extensions are all over the map and most make zero sense when it comes to building a team under a salary cap. It's like he thinks "Well, we can't afford this player, or don't want/need him this long, but what the hell. If the player doesn't work out or the contract doesn't fit under the cap, i'll worry about it later, maybe just waive someone."

He lost Marchenko to Babcock for nothing. Babcock obviously sees something in him, or knows how he can help him become a solid productive everyday player on his defence corps. While his point production may have been dismal, his defensive numbers were excellent. Holland may have been able to get a late pick for him at one point, but other teams knew his situation and knew he'd have one of Marchenko or Sproul on waivers in order to get Smith back in the lineup and they waited it out. And still we have broken Kronwall and Errorsson who scores more on his own net than the other teams. Holland can never make the tough choices and move an underperforming vet somehow instead instead of taking the easy route with the low paid younger guys, who we need more. It's doable, other teams do it, like NYI with Halak. Holland would have kept Halak and waived Griess. Cause veteran loyalty.

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41 minutes ago, kliq said:

Like Kickazz said, its a team effort. One person is not 100% responsible for anything in sports. When Holland was first on the wings, we was a member of the management team, in 1998, he become the leader of that team. To say, this was all because of Haken, that was Holland, this was Nill, that was Bowman etc. etc. etc. is nothing but speculation on your part. You don't know because you were not in the room when these players were discussed. You clearly are saying everything you can to tell the narrative of "Holland had nothing to do with anything" which is just BS. If you are unhappy with some of the moves he has made over the past few years, I 100% get it. To dismiss every accomplishment he has ever had is just wrong.

Ok, we'll first off, it wasn't even my subject, I commented on someone's list of people responsible for our success, they listed bowman, Jimmy D, Mr i., Yzerman, Holland. My response was that fedorov and Lidstrom deserves just as much credit than Yzerman if they are listing players before Holland. You guys are acting like I brought up the subject that only certain people are responsible for our success. 

I agree that it's a group effort, hence the reason I argued the Conn Smythe award. I said it can only go to one player, but it doesn't mean that another player wasn't just as deserving. I used ozzie in 08 and Hasek in 02 as examples.

But ya, not my subject, so if you guys want to get on someone about the whole who's responsible, go back to their original post and argue with them.

My point was, if we're listing people in order and Yzerman is above Holland,then so should Feds and Lidstrom be, because they were both just as important as Yzerman to the Cup wins.

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I mean it's just common knowledge though that management is a group effort in big businesses. It's not a godam dictatorship. We already know how some parts of the organization work. Didn't they come out with an article years ago about how rosters are done? Something about how the coaches get 1 vote, the captain gets 1 vote and the GM gets 2 votes and all of them have the power to veto or something? I'd imagine something similar happens between scouts, coaches, GMs when it comes to drafting. 

Someone linked the article a while ago (might have been me lmfao)

Edited by kickazz

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Ya, I remember the whole veto thing well when Fedorov was to possibly come back,  but it was said someone vetoed it. I'm still saying it was Babcock. I use the example of how he ran him out of Anaheim. Also going back to watching him snub Fedorov  a congrats and handshake at HOF introductions in Toronto, I'm pretty convinced it was him.

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11 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

It's about time there was a story that presents the total truth. Holland has screwed the team up royally just to keep The Streak going in order to keep his job. His free agent signings and contract extensions are all over the map and most make zero sense when it comes to building a team under a salary cap. It's like he thinks "Well, we can't afford this player, or don't want/need him this long, but what the hell. If the player doesn't work out or the contract doesn't fit under the cap, i'll worry about it later, maybe just waive someone."

He lost Marchenko to Babcock for nothing. Babcock obviously sees something in him, or knows how he can help him become a solid productive everyday player on his defence corps. While his point production may have been dismal, his defensive numbers were excellent. Holland may have been able to get a late pick for him at one point, but other teams knew his situation and knew he'd have one of Marchenko or Sproul on waivers in order to get Smith back in the lineup and they waited it out. And still we have broken Kronwall and Errorsson who scores more on his own net than the other teams. Holland can never make the tough choices and move an underperforming vet somehow instead instead of taking the easy route with the low paid younger guys, who we need more. It's doable, other teams do it, like NYI with Halak. Holland would have kept Halak and waived Griess. Cause veteran loyalty.

Babcock's had him for 2 weeks and still hasn't played him.

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4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Babcock's had him for 2 weeks and still hasn't played him.

Holland put him on waivers, Babcock claimed him. When Holland goes over to Toronto, him and Babs will complete their ultimate plan of having the Russian duo defenseman Zaitsev and Marchenko. Muhahaha

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8 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

You can only award the Conn Smythe to one player. Doesn't mean another playing wasn't just as important. 2008, Osgood was hands down the front runners for the trophy, until game 6 when Zetterberg put on a clinic, especially a 5 on 3 penalty kill for the ages. But game 6 by Z or not, they don't win the Cup without Osgood...or, and it makes me puke in my mouth, Franzen.

As a matter of fact, in 02 Hasek should have won it over Lidstrom. He also should've gotten the Vezina. 

I still think Osgood should have won it, but Z was playin at the same deserving level, so either way. But in 2009 had they repeated, Osgood would have won it no doubt. Some say Malkin may still have won it over Ozzie in a losing effort, but a player on the losing side winning the Smythe is rare. Last time it happened was in 2003 when Michelin Man won it, and I think before that it was Hextall way back in 1987.

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3 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Babcock's had him for 2 weeks and still hasn't played him.

Doesn't mean anything. Not like there's a rush to get him in. The Leafs are doin fine. Maybe he's working with Marchenko, getting him integrated with the defence, and has a timeline in mind for when he will play him. He took him for a reason. It seems too much of a coincidence that a bunch of teams pass him over and Babcock, his former coach, snags him.

4 hours ago, kickazz said:

Holland put him on waivers, Babcock claimed him. When Holland goes over to Toronto, him and Babs will complete their ultimate plan of having the Russian duo defenseman Zaitsev and Marchenko. Muhahaha

Holland should go there now. Holland for Lou, straight up trade.

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I'm getting a little tired of hearing about how great Hakkan Andersson is.  Yeah, he got some good players who turned out to be a hell of a lot better than they were projected to be when not as many teams were investing much money scouting the backwaters of Europe.  Since Franzen, who has he dug up that turned into anything special?  People complain that Holland is resting on his laurels and getting a pass because of what he did years ago, why is Andersson still considered some scouting god?  

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1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

I'm getting a little tired of hearing about how great Hakkan Andersson is.  Yeah, he got some good players who turned out to be a hell of a lot better than they were projected to be when not as many teams were investing much money scouting the backwaters of Europe.  Since Franzen, who has he dug up that turned into anything special?  People complain that Holland is resting on his laurels and getting a pass because of what he did years ago, why is Andersson still considered some scouting god?  

And why is Paul McCartney still considered a great musician? 'laurels' matter. 

And he does have some impressive laurels. Responsible for finding Lidstrom Holmstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Franzen. He deserves all the respect he gets. But his success was partly based on being ahead of the curve, though. He went deeper into the european talent and had a great eye. Now the playing field is more even.

Since Franzen, players I've read he's been responsible for drafting are: Nyquist, Filppula, Hudler, Ericsson, Andersson, Axel Holmstrom, Malmstrom. I'm not sure how that compares to other individual scouts so it's hard to judge his resent pull. No great diamonds in the rough, but maybe regular for a scout with the picks that the Red Wings have had.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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