Brendan Smith traded to Rangers for 2nd (2018) and 3rd (2017) Round Draft Picks

[kickazz 5,459]

25 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

 

Why would I "make a peep" about players from another team? You also don't hear me talking about Kindl, or Vanek, or Sheahan, or Jarnkrok, or Janmark. It's "well I don't really care", because I truly don't. One thing I will say though, is that if Smith were putting up good numbers and proving that he were a legit top 4 defenseman like I said he was for years, I wouldn't be here saying "I told ya so" like you two love to do...

It just makes you lose credibility when you don’t criticise other franchises for the very thing Holland does. Which is why Holland probably brushes criticism off from this fandom like it’s nothing. He knows this fandom is hypocritical and pays no attention to it.

We’re becoming Montreal 2.0. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 minutes ago, kickazz said:

It just makes you lose credibility when you don’t criticise other franchises for the very thing Holland does. Which is why Holland probably brushes criticism off from this fandom like it’s nothing. He knows this fandom is hypocritical and pays no attention to it.

We’re becoming Montreal 2.0. 

You actually expect people to come on letsgowings.com and criticize Gorton / Vigneault on how they are handling Brendan Smith? Get real. I was never a fan of Kindl. Always thought he sucked. You didn't see me go to the "Kindl traded" thread every time he had a bad stretch of games, or was healthy scratched, just to rub it in the people's faces that one time had high expectation for him. You know why? Because the day we traded Kindl, I said best of luck in Florida, or wherever else he may end up, and didn't care if he put up a 30 point season, or got demoted to Springfield. The same goes for Smith, or any other player we trade. If we trade Mrazek tomorrow and he ends up a complete bust, I'm not going to rub it in @chaps80 face for the next several years. I'm sure you will though...

We won the Smith trade. I'm happy with the return. Smith isn't playing up to what I expected out of him. Anything else? 

[kickazz 5,459]

17 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

You actually expect people to come on letsgowings.com and criticize Gorton / Vigneault on how they are handling Brendan Smith? Get real. I was never a fan of Kindl. Always thought he sucked. You didn't see me go to the "Kindl traded" thread every time he had a bad stretch of games, or was healthy scratched, just to rub it in the people's faces that one time had high expectation for him. You know why? Because the day we traded Kindl, I said best of luck in Florida, or wherever else he may end up, and didn't care if he put up a 30 point season, or got demoted to Springfield. The same goes for Smith, or any other player we trade. If we trade Mrazek tomorrow and he ends up a complete bust, I'm not going to rub it in @chaps80 face for the next several years. I'm sure you will though...

We won the Smith trade. I'm happy with the return. Smith isn't playing up to what I expected out of him. Anything else? 

Put it this way. When the Wings benched Smith and Jurco. “Omg Holland and Blashill (and Babs) sucks, I KNOW Smith and Jurco are mishandled. When Rangers and Blackhawks do the same thing. “Oh they must be right, I was wrong all along, but why are you rubbing it in my face??”

I’m not rubbing Smith failure in your face, what I’m trying to point out (rub in whatever you want to call it) is that you admit defeat just because some other franchise did the same thing our franchise did. But when Holland or our coaches do it, you are determined that they are wrong. 

Ya’ll act like armchair GM’s until another franchise does the same exact thing we do and all of a sudden “no comment”.

Edited November 19, 2017 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Put it this way. When the Wings benched Smith and Jurco. “Omg Holland and Blashill sucks, I KNOW Smith and Jurco and mishandled. WHen Rangers and Blackhawks do the same thing. “Oh they must he right, I was wrong, why are you rubbing it in my face??”

I’m not rubbing it in your face, what I’m trying to point out is that you admit defeat because some other franchise did the same thing our franchise did.  

When did I say "Oh they must be right"? I didn't. I don't care about what other teams GMs / coaches are doing with their players. Why would I? I care about how Smith does with the Rangers as much as I do how Kindl does with the Panthers. 

I don't think Smith and Jurco were destined to be busts. I think either of them could have carved out a reasonably successful NHL career. I still think they were mishandled in Detroit. You really want to get back into that? I don't. We disagree. Move on...

[kickazz 5,459]

2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

When did I say "Oh they must be right"? I didn't. I don't care about what other teams GMs / coaches are doing with their players. Why would I? I care about how Smith does with the Rangers as much as I do how Kindl does with the Panthers. 

I don't think Smith and Jurco were destined to be busts. I think either of them could have carved out a reasonably successful NHL career. I still think they were mishandled in Detroit. You really want to get back into that? I don't. We disagree. Move on...

So do you still think Smith is a top 4 defenseman and Jurco is a top 9 forward and do you think that Rangers and Blackhawks mishandled them just like Detroit did? 

Stick to you guns bro.

Edited November 19, 2017 by kickazz

[e_prime 1,936]

It doesn't seem to me that @krsmith17 is one to "oh, I told you so" in either direction -- wether it be success or flop -- so I don't know why y'all wanna go so hard at him. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

47 minutes ago, kickazz said:

So do you still think Smith is a top 4 defenseman and Jurco is a top 9 forward and do you think that Rangers and Blackhawks mishandled them just like Detroit did? 

Stick to you guns bro.

I don't know how they've been handled in New York or Chicago, nor do I really care. However, there's a huge difference in mishandling a 19-23 year old player (in which I believe was the case with Smith and Jurco) and mishandling a 24-28 year old player, who is what he is at that point. Smith and Jurco are what they are, they're not going to be anything more than what they are at they're current ages. Could they have been more? I believe so, but that's something we'll never know for sure.

McIlrath was once a highly regarded prospect. He didn't amount to much in New York, and he most likely won't here. Was he mishandled in New York? I have no idea, but I'm sure there are some people that would say he was. If he's a career AHLer, is that to the fault of Holland or Blashill? I wouldn't say so. And I'm sure the people that thought he was mishandled in New York wouldn't say so either.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

12 minutes ago, e_prime said:

It doesn't seem to me that @krsmith17 is one to "oh, I told you so" in either direction -- wether it be success or flop -- so I don't know why y'all wanna go so hard at him. 

Trolls trying to elicit an emotional response. They just can't move on...

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't know how they've been handled in New York or Chicago, nor do I really care. However, there's a huge difference in mishandling a 19-23 year old player (in which I believe was the case with Smith and Jurco) and mishandling a 24-28 year old player, who is what he is at that point. Smith and Jurco are what they are, they're not going to be anything more than what they are at they're current ages. Could they have been more? I believe so, but that's something we'll never know for sure.

McIlrath was once a highly regarded prospect. He didn't amount to much in New York, and he most likely won't here. Was he mishandled in New York? I have no idea, but I'm sure there are some people that would say he was. If he's a career AHLer, is that to the fault of Holland or Blashill? I wouldn't say so. And I'm sure the people that thought he was mishandled in New York wouldn't say so either.

Smith was here till 27/28 so not sure what you're trying to say. 

Second bold point. We do know for sure. Jurco is in the AHL and Smith is benched. He could come around though. 

You act like the Red Wings butchered these players when in reality they just weren't as good as you assumed and literally 3 different GM/franchises and 4 coaches made the same decisions on them.

I'm sorry I guess I just take issue when people act like the Red Wings franchise and their coaches/GMs are shyte but when it comes to the other orgs and coaches doing the same thing to the same players they turn their cheek. I must just be an irrational groupie for the franchise. 

Have faith in da franchise, da process and da system is all I'm saying. And all that I've been saying for years. Because more often than not, Holland knows exactly what he's doing. Key phrase is "more often than not". 

Anyways my posts are directed at anyone who thought Smith was going to be a stud. Not necessarily just at Krsmith. 

And next time when I'm wrong (for instance this paragraph I just wrote, lets say Holland actually does f*** this franchise up in 2-3 years assuming he is GM) you guys can point it out all you want. "So what now kickazz? Holland just traded away Larkin, Mantha, AA and all the pieces we got sucked" I'll gladly bend over for each of you. I won't be a millennial about it. I promise. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, Son of a Wing said:

Trolls trying to elicit an emotional response. They just can't move on...

Which is exactly what this quoted passive-aggressive post is doing lol. We're all just fools and trolls. It's not that serious.

Edited November 19, 2017 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I think that if Jurco was allowed to be an offensive player from day 1 he would be at least a 3rd line scorer.  Coaching destroyed any confidence he had  But we'll never know.

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 hours ago, kickazz said:

Smith was here till 27/28 so not sure what you're trying to say. 

Second bold point. We do know for sure. Jurco is in the AHL and Smith is benched. He could come around though. 

You act like the Red Wings butchered these players when in reality they just weren't as good as you assumed and literally 3 different GM/franchises and 4 coaches made the same decisions on them.

I'm sorry I guess I just take issue when people act like the Red Wings franchise and their coaches/GMs are shyte but when it comes to the other orgs and coaches doing the same thing to the same players they turn their cheek. I must just be an irrational groupie for the franchise. 

Have faith in da franchise, da process and da system is all I'm saying. And all that I've been saying for years. Because more often than not, Holland knows exactly what he's doing. Key phrase is "more often than not". 

Anyways my posts are directed at anyone who thought Smith was going to be a stud. Not necessarily just at Krsmith. 

And next time when I'm wrong (for instance this paragraph I just wrote, lets say Holland actually does f*** this franchise up in 2-3 years assuming he is GM) you guys can point it out all you want. "So what now kickazz? Holland just traded away Larkin, Mantha, AA and all the pieces we got sucked" I'll gladly bend over for each of you. I won't be a millennial about it. I promise. 

Wow, you really don't understand at all... The first few years of players development at the pro level (19-23) is what I'm talking about. The way they are handled (or mishandled) at that age is when they make it or break it. Very rarely can you mold a 24+ year old player into something he's never been at the pro level. Which is exactly what you're saying should have happened with Smith and Jurco when they moved on. "If they should have been impact players in Detroit (they weren't), then they should be in New York and Chicago, right?" No, that's not the case at all. They were already broken at that point in my opinion.

I'm not going to get into specifics with these two players because a) it's been discussed ad nauseam, and b) I could care less now that they're no longer a part of our organization. However, when a player is called up, the role he is given, the amount of ice time he gets, etc, etc are all things that can and usually do affect what kind of player he will develop into as a pro. I think a few players were mishandled early in their development. You disagree. Cool. MOVE ON...

[kliq 3,755]

Ya guys lets just move on from Jurco and Smith.

I think its fair to say that both came into the organization with potential, and both never lived up to it. You can argue that some of that is on the coaching/management, you can argue that some of that is on the player. Neither would be incorrect.

IMO, I would say Jurco was really not given the opportunity, while Smith just never took his game to the next level.

[kickazz 5,459]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Wow, you really don't understand at all... The first few years of players development at the pro level (19-23) is what I'm talking about. The way they are handled (or mishandled) at that age is when they make it or break it. Very rarely can you mold a 24+ year old player into something he's never been at the pro level. Which is exactly what you're saying should have happened with Smith and Jurco when they moved on. "If they should have been impact players in Detroit (they weren't), then they should be in New York and Chicago, right?" No, that's not the case at all. They were already broken at that point in my opinion.

I'm not going to get into specifics with these two players because a) it's been discussed ad nauseam, and b) I could care less now that they're no longer a part of our organization. However, when a player is called up, the role he is given, the amount of ice time he gets, etc, etc are all things that can and usually do affect what kind of player he will develop into as a pro. I think a few players were mishandled early in their development. You disagree. Cool. MOVE ON...

You're just trying to spin it to still blame the franchise when in reality they just sucked. Smith got to play with Lidstrom so can't really complain about development there. 

Neither AA nor Mantha's development is being questioned even though last year we all bitched about their ice time (especially AA). You know why it's not really an issue anymore? Because they're actually good and EARNED it. Jurco and Smith didn't because they just aren't good. Cherry pick all you want but it's just excuses to justify that you're right. It's just hard for you to admit that those 2 simply weren't good NHL calibre players.

Edited November 19, 2017 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

You're just trying to spin it to still blame the franchise when in reality they just sucked. Smith got to play with Lidstrom so can't really complain about development there. 

Neither AA nor Mantha's development is being questioned even though last year we all bitched about their ice time (especially AA). You know why it's not really an issue anymore? Because they're actually good and EARNED it. Jurco and Smith didn't because they just aren't good. Cherry pick all you want but it's just excuses to justify that you're right. It's just hard for you to admit that those 2 simply weren't good NHL calibre players.

Whatever you say man...

[kickazz 5,459]

2 hours ago, kliq said:

Ya guys lets just move on from Jurco and Smith.

I think its fair to say that both came into the organization with potential, and both never lived up to it. You can argue that some of that is on the coaching/management, you can argue that some of that is on the player. Neither would be incorrect.

IMO, I would say Jurco was really not given the opportunity, while Smith just never took his game to the next level.

Judge Alex has laid the hammer

[kliq 3,755]

Remember guys, this thread isnt about arguing about Smith/Jurco, its about the portfolio of a man who knows what a Bogel AND a Swensen are. And lets not forget he ALSO knows what an index fund is, AND an expense ratio! Lets NOT EVEN GET STARTED on a Roth IRA and a 401k!!!!!!!

Lets all unite and just mock the ridiculousness of this thread.

</thread>

(learning my HTML!)

Edited November 20, 2017 by kliq

[lomekian 201]

A number of things spring to mind.

1) Smith's early foray was a perfect illustration of the Lidstrom effect. Apart from Chelios he made everyone look better. Ian White? Check. Dandenault? Check. Same with Brendan Smith. If Smith had been a few years older and could have had more time alongside Lidstrom he would have looked a 2-3 D-man for that time...particularly as....

2) Smith's problem has never been a lack of heart or skill but rather passing and decision making. No coincidence that by far his best performances were alongside d-men who could pass well and who were both experienced and smart. Lidstrom. Kronwall. Green.The first two benefited from his skating, the latter from his slightly more abrasive edge.

3) Smith was never the sharpest tool in the box, on or off the ice. Seems like a nice lad, but doesn't look likely to trouble Mensa.

4) Smith was also hampered by crucial developmental years being under the pre-blash coaching debacle in Grand Rapids - did anyone really improve under Curt Fraser? Several declined.

5) Smith, as at NYR, was always twice the player in the playoffs. We all saw those performances and saw what he could bring if he could replicate that in the regular season - a solid top 4 guy. NYR fell into the same trap.

On the Wings, a team now largely lacking in smart D-men, and too weak on the back line to shelter him, not to mention playoff outsiders, there really wasn't much merit in keeping him. for a player who had stalled, couldn't find the right partner and who only flourished at the time of the season that his regular season play didn't merit, the trade was a great one for the wings, and many at the time said exactly that. A shame that his initial flourish alongside his old college mate declined so quickly.

 

On Jurco, that injury seemed to destroy his confidence and effectiveness. I suspect Babs' attempts to turn him into a power forward rather than a decent sized 3rd line skill player didn't help, but he has been worse every year since his NHL debut season. By the time he left us he looked so lost. For his last spell with us he was at least a more than PPG player at AHL level. Now he's not even that. Not seen a young player have such a solid upward trajectory until 22 have such a consistent downward one since then.

For him to have dropped off his early promise so much can't just be on DRW despite Bab's questionable usage.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

4 hours ago, kliq said:

Ya guys lets just move on from Jurco and Smith.

I think its fair to say that both came into the organization with potential, and both never lived up to it. You can argue that some of that is on the coaching/management, you can argue that some of that is on the player. Neither would be incorrect.

IMO, I would say Jurco was really not given the opportunity, while Smith just never took his game to the next level.

I'll take the blame for it. I kinda started it with my post. I certainly wasn't trying to troll anyone with it. I was poking fun at myself as much as anyone cuz I too thought Smith and Jurco were better. That said, I agree with you. It can be both. Smith and Jurco just weren't that good to begin with, and they were developed/used poorly. It doesn't  have to be one or the other.

[kickazz 5,459]

36 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I'll take the blame for it. I kinda started it with my post. I certainly wasn't trying to troll anyone with it. I was poking fun at myself as much as anyone cuz I too thought Smith and Jurco were better. That said, I agree with you. It can be both. Smith and Jurco just weren't that good to begin with, and they were developed/used poorly. It doesn't  have to be one or the other.

No one here thinks you’re a troll Neo. You’re assessments are fair. @Son of a Wing was posting at me because my posting style is aggravating. And I enjoy engaging in arguments. Especially since some of us have a history of arguing over Smith and Jurco for almost 4 years now.

No one is pointing anything at you so no worries. Keep doing what you’re doing bro.

1 hour ago, kliq said:

Remember guys, this thread isnt about arguing about Smith/Jurco, its about the portfolio of a man who knows what a Bogel AND a Swensen are. And lets not forget he ALSO knows what an index fund is, AND an expense ratio? Lets NOT EVEN GET STARTED on a Roth IRA and a 401k!!!!!!!

Lets all unite and just mock the ridiculousness of this thread.

</thread>

(learning my HTML!)

 

 

</thread>

That guy had me beat. I’m at a networth of negative $180 k. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by kickazz

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

 

What a stupid play. He really is clueless.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Oh please. No one is unfairly picking on anyone. Yall need to buck up.

KR, you argued left and right for the better part of 5 years that Smith not only had the potential to be a top 4 puck moving Dman, but at times you argued he already was one. Now things have shook out... the waiting to see what he becomes is over... and now suddenly when these results are in we cant revist the argument? I find that down right silly

Smith and Jurco were both extremely hyped prospects. Had there not been a big hype train, we wouldnt be here discussing their failures to live up to that hype now. Yall can say thats face rubbing, but to that id just say yall made your beds, time to lay in em. Remember the amount of s*** Eva took for hyping Hudler night and day? Guy took it like a champ. If youre not mature enough to discuss gtfo. 

Thats directed at all you sensitive snowflakes

KR, you know your s***, and I respect your opinion, even though we disagree sometimes. And as resident Smith fanboy I'm most interested to hear what you think about Smith at this point of his career. Regardless of how it got to this point for him I think we can both agree 1. Hes not top4. 2. Hes not a puck mover (at least not an NHL caliber one). Am I wrong?

[kickazz 5,459]

6 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Oh please. No one is unfairly picking on anyone. Yall need to buck up.

KR, you argued left and right for the better part of 5 years that Smith not only had the potential to be a top 4 puck moving Dman, but at times you argued he already was one. Now things have shook out... the waiting to see what he becomes is over... and now suddenly when these results are in we cant revist the argument? I find that down right silly

Smith and Jurco were both extremely hyped prospects. Had there not been a big hype train, we wouldnt be here discussing their failures to live up to that hype now. Yall can say thats face rubbing, but to that id just say yall made your beds, time to lay in em. Remember the amount of s*** Eva took for hyping Hudler night and day? Guy took it like a champ. If youre not mature enough to discuss gtfo. 

No you're wrong. According to the sensitive millennials, revisiting arguments is trolling. It's not what normal people do. It's what trolls do. I was wrong and the fact that you're pointing it out to me means that you  must be trolling me because that's what my go-to cop out is in 2017. 

In fact, you know what CRL. Tomorrow when you screw up at work and your boss walks in to let you know that you screwed up, you should tell him "I'm not listening to you, you're just trolling me to get a reaction"

Edited November 21, 2017 by kickazz

[The Datsyukian Deke 127]

On 19.11.2017 at 8:43 PM, DickieDunn said:

I think that if Jurco was allowed to be an offensive player from day 1 he would be at least a 3rd line scorer.  Coaching destroyed any confidence he had  But we'll never know.

Yes, but unfortunately that never happened and we kept playing people like Abby, Helm, even Glendening in Top6 Slots...

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Oh please. No one is unfairly picking on anyone. Yall need to buck up.

KR, you argued left and right for the better part of 5 years that Smith not only had the potential to be a top 4 puck moving Dman, but at times you argued he already was one. Now things have shook out... the waiting to see what he becomes is over... and now suddenly when these results are in we cant revist the argument? I find that down right silly

Smith and Jurco were both extremely hyped prospects. Had there not been a big hype train, we wouldnt be here discussing their failures to live up to that hype now. Yall can say thats face rubbing, but to that id just say yall made your beds, time to lay in em. Remember the amount of s*** Eva took for hyping Hudler night and day? Guy took it like a champ. If youre not mature enough to discuss gtfo. 

Thats directed at all you sensitive snowflakes

KR, you know your s***, and I respect your opinion, even though we disagree sometimes. And as resident Smith fanboy I'm most interested to hear what you think about Smith at this point of his career. Regardless of how it got to this point for him I think we can both agree 1. Hes not top4. 2. Hes not a puck mover (at least not an NHL caliber one). Am I wrong?

No, you're not wrong at all, and I agree with pretty much everything you said here. No one's saying we can't rehash this. I don't mind talking about it at all. I just hate the "told ya so" attitude by some. It's childish, but then again, some users here are very childish, so whatever. I was completely wrong with the projection of Smith and Jurco, and I'm fine with that. But when I say that I think that was in large part due to the way they were handled at the beginning of their careers, and people say, "No, you're wrong. Our organization is perfect." That's what bothers the s*** out of me.

I did say that Smith had top 4 potential, and he absolutely did. To say otherwise, is false. I also said that at one point in his career (didn't last long...) he was a top 4 puck moving defenseman, and I stand by that. You may disagree, and that's fine. What do I think of Smith at this point in his career? I think he's a guy that had all the tools, but was never able to put it all together. Was that all on him, or was it partially due to the way he was handled as an up and comer? I still think he was mishandled a little at the beginning of his pro career. Again, you may disagree, and that's totally fine. Same goes for Jurco. A kid with all the talent, but was never able to put it all together. I think Jurco not only had top 9 potential, but top 6 potential. Unfortunately for him, like Smith, he struggled, and lost all confidence in his game. Trying to completely change his game probably didn't help matters much though. So anyway, to answer your question, Smith is a bottom pair defenseman. Jurco may get another shot in the NHL, but will probably play another year in the AHL and head back over seas, where he will be a middle 6 forward.

We won both of those trades. Good on Ken Holland.

3 hours ago, kickazz said:

No you're wrong. According to the sensitive millennials, revisiting arguments is trolling. It's not what normal people do. It's what trolls do. I was wrong and the fact that you're pointing it out to me means that you  must be trolling me because that's what my go-to cop out is in 2017. 

In fact, you know what CRL. Tomorrow when you screw up at work and your boss walks in to let you know that you screwed up, you should tell him "I'm not listening to you, you're just trolling me to get a reaction"

It's not revisiting arguments that is trolling, it's the way you go about it that people consider trolling. The bolded - Case in point.

Again, I was wrong in their projection, but you can't say I'm wrong about a hypothetical, something no one will ever know for sure, aka, the reason they failed to reach their ceilings... There are countless factors that go into whether or not a player makes the NHL, and what kind of career they have if they do make it. One major factor in that in my opinion, is coaching. Another one would definitely be mental toughness. Two key factors as to why neither of the aforementioned carved out the type of careers that myself and so many others thought they would. The skill was there, therefore the potential was there. Unfortunately for us, they failed miserably...

I'd once again say MOVE ON, but I'm sure you'll try your damndest to spin this to keep the argument going...