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OldTimeWinger

Time for a reset/restore

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33 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:


You don't need to get rid of that many players. A legit NHL coach and Tatar and Nyquist probably get back to scoring 25-30 goals. Get a top pair D so Dekeyser isn't their #1 and he plays better. As for the rest, most of them you're not going to move without taking on equally bad contracts. Best case scenario is Ericsson and/or Kronwall retire. XO isn't dead weight, either.

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What are you basing that on?  Because of Blashill they don't try hard and don't know how to shoot or go to scoring areas?  That's not the coach's fault.  These two players have failed this team in important moments, even before Blashill was coach.  They stink.  

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At what point do you start thinking about signing a goalie July 1st? I'm a big Mrazek fan, but can't deny he's had a horrible,  sucky year, almost two. Can't trust Howard to stay healthy. Do you start looking at ufa goalies?

Edited by LeftWinger

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1 minute ago, LeftWinger said:

At what point do you start thinking about signing a goalie July 1st? I a big Mrazek fan, but can't deny he's had a horrible,  sucky year. Can't trust Howard to stay healthy. Do you start looking at ufa goalies?

Deal Mrazek. Acquire/sign a high end back up for Howard. 

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1 minute ago, LeftWinger said:

Can't trust Howard to stay healthy. Maybe that crazy thread that had something big going on in Pittsburgh has MAF coming our way...I don't know, maybe we deal Mrazek, buyout Howard and get a different goalie...

That rumor was pure BS.

There's a lot of good young backups out there. Acquiring one to backup Howard until they can start themselves would be fine by me.

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3 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Can't trust Howard to stay healthy. Maybe that crazy thread that had something big going on in Pittsburgh has MAF coming our way...I don't know, maybe we deal Mrazek, buyout Howard and get a different goalie...

Why do you want to buyout everybody, that is going to hurt us for years. We need to just eat the contracts, or trade them. If we buyout Howard that is 4 more years of a caphit instead of 2. It's not like there is some giant UFA this summer that we need that Howard is preventing us from getting. If we we're talking 2 years from now and we could sign Jonathan Tavares but need to buyout Howard, then sure buyout Howard, but until we NEED the cap space to sign a UFA or sign a Mantha/AA/Larkin, or to even trade for a 1A d-man a buyout makes no sense and just keeps us down longer.

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I only mention buyout because Howard's and Ericsson contracts have been deemed untradeable around these parts. So if we had to get rid of them some other way, it'd be buyout. Besides you know very well if I said trade Howard, the vultures would've attacked me with we can't trade him, plus he has a NTC. I just want good goaltending, do we trust Howard to stay healthy or do we hope for Mrazek to bounce back? What if we keep both and neither happen?

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1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

I only mention buyout because Howard's and Ericsson contracts have been deemed untradeable around these parts. So if we had to get rid of them some other way, it'd be buyout. Besides you know very well if I said trade Howard, the vultures would've attacked me with we can't trade him, plus he has a NTC. I just want good goaltending, do we trust Howard to stay healthy or do we hope for Mrazek to bounce back? What if we keep both and neither happen?

If anything, I would choose to trade Howard and retain salary. I hate buyouts because the caphit goes double the term.

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Howard can be traded, and assuming he can stay healthy and get in a handful of games to close out this season, he will likely be picked up in the expansion draft or traded this summer. Buying him out is a terrible idea. Like kliq said, even if you have to retain salary, or throw a pick a teams way, you do that before you even consider a buyout. You know what else is a terrible idea? Trading a 25 year old goaltender that has a ton of potential. He's had a bad year, but so has the entire team. We keep saying that players should be given the benefit of the doubt because of bad coaching / bad team, well so should Mrazek. I'm not too worried though, because Mrazek will be protected, and won't be traded unless Holland is offered a deal he can't refuse (Norris calibre defenseman)...

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To me this isn't really hard.  And I get super annoyed by the insinuation (from the organization) that a rebuild will take years and years and years.  Maybe it used to, but players are increasingly ready to play in the NHL at a younger age so there's less need for "seasoning".  Especially if you're drafting high (which we will be for a couple years). 

The organization needs to identify a core of young guys to build around, identify a "few" vets to help mentor them, and start moving good players not in either category to get good picks.  If a guy is reasonably good now, but likely will be less good 3 years from now, then move him for futures.

The operative goal should be to put yourself in a position to be competitive in 3 years.  Anybody who doesn't figure into those plans should be moved for future's in this year's and next year's draft.  Then sign available veteran UFA's ON SHORT TERM DEALS to compliment the young guys and keep the team from being the new Oilers while your young guys develop.

Here's what I'd do over the next two years (remember, being bad is actually good for about two years).

1. Get a new coach.  One who understands modern, offensive, hockey

2.  Future core guys you keep: Mantha, Larkin, AA, Svech, Mrazek, Jensen.

3.  Vets to keep: Z, Helm, Tatar, Neilsen

4.  Vets to move: DK, Green, Abby (if possible), Nyquist, Sheahan, Glendening,   Note: package mid-level prospects to entice other teams to take questionable contracts.

Then roll with this, win, lose, or draw, for the next few years and draft as high as possible if you aren't good for a year or two.

Z-Neilsen-Mantha

Svech-AA-Tatar

Frk-Larkin-UFA veteran winger (thinking here about a Justin Williams type)

UFA PK/Grinder-Helm-Bertuzz

 

UFA Defenseman (not a true #1, just serviceable)-Jensen

Ouellet-Sproul

Kronwall/Ericsson-Russo

Kronwall/Ericsson

Edited by kipwinger

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On 3/12/2017 at 4:39 PM, kipwinger said:

To me this isn't really hard.  And I get super annoyed by the insinuation (from the organization) that a rebuild will take years and years and years.  Maybe it used to, but players are increasingly ready to play in the NHL at a younger age so there's less need for "seasoning".  Especially if you're drafting high (which we will be for a couple years). 

The organization needs to identify a core of young guys to build around, identify a "few" vets to help mentor them, and start moving good players not in either category to get good picks.  If a guy is reasonably good now, but likely will be less good 3 years from now, then move him for futures.

The operative goal should be to put yourself in a position to be competitive in 3 years.  Anybody who doesn't figure into those plans should be moved for future's in this year's and next year's draft.  Then sign available veteran UFA's ON SHORT TERM DEALS to compliment the young guys and keep the team from being the new Oilers while your young guys develop.

Here's what I'd do over the next two years (remember, being bad is actually good for about two years).

  • 1. Get a new coach.  One who understands modern, offensive, hockey
  • 2.  Future core guys you keep: Mantha, Larkin, AA, Svech, Mrazek, Jensen.
  • 3.  Vets to keep: Z, Helm, Tatar, Neilsen
  • 4.  Vets to move: DK, Green, Abby (if possible), Nyquist, Sheahan, Glendening,   Note: package mid-level prospects to entice other teams to take questionable contracts.
  • Then roll with this, win, lose, or draw, for the next few years and draft as high as possible if you aren't good for a year or two.
  • Z-Neilsen-Mantha
  • Svech-AA-Tatar
  • Frk-Larkin-UFA veteran winger (thinking here about a Justin Williams type)
  • UFA PK/Grinder-Helm-Bertuzz
  •  
  • UFA Defenseman (not a true #1, just serviceable)-Jensen
  • Ouellet-Sproul
  • Kronwall/Ericsson-Russo
  • Kronwall/Ericsson

The bolded annoys me too, mostly because I think it's just Kenny playing spin doctor. It's something I think he does too much. Fans aren't going to be appeased by words anyway, so I don't know why he bothers. But he isn't actually wrong. Keep in mind that Tatar and Jensen were drafted in 2009. 8 years ago. It does take 10+ years, just not 10+ more years from where we already are (unless you're talking tear apart everything we already have and start over). 

That said, aside from maybe some specifics regarding certain players you may not care for, your plan is more or less what we're already doing. But I would say that whomever we draft this year could very well be a part of the team next season, and I would hope if we're getting rid of Dekeyser and Nyquist it would be to add something to the team besides "futures" that will maybe develop into the next DK/Nyq in a few years. Especially since when your 3 years are up, Kronwall/Ericsson will likely be done (possibly Zetterberg too). 

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Why do so many people want to dump Dekeyser? He's having a bad year, but so are most of the players. A real coach and a top pair D so he has more help and he probably looks a lot better. Maybe still overpaid, but not drastically so.

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7 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Why do so many people want to dump Dekeyser? He's having a bad year, but so are most of the players. A real coach and a top pair D so he has more help and he probably looks a lot better. Maybe still overpaid, but not drastically so.

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Because we're losing, and when a team is losing, everyone gots to go...

Haven't you heard? Nyquist and Tatar suck too... So does Mrazek... :rolleyes:

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Do we think the new arena influences The Plan this summer and moving forward? Do we think ownership and/or management would be ok with spending the first year in the new digs as a basement team? Or will there a mandate to bring this team back to the playoffs ASAP?

Honest questions, not rhetorical ones. I really don't know what to expect from the Wings this summer. Could be business as usual. Could be the exact opposite of what we're now used to.

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9 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Do we think the new arena influences The Plan this summer and moving forward? Do we think ownership and/or management would be ok with spending the first year in the new digs as a basement team? Or will there a mandate to bring this team back to the playoffs ASAP?

Honest questions, not rhetorical ones. I really don't know what to expect from the Wings this summer. Could be business as usual. Could be the exact opposite of what we're now used to.

Obvioulsy this season is a lost cause, but  do think that in management/ownerships eyes next year the goal will be to make the playoffs.

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They really aren't that far off. A coach who gets his players to play to their ability and has a system that works and one top pair D and they should be a playoff team. Of course, stinking for another year or two for the draft picks might be a good idea.

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On 3/9/2017 at 7:18 PM, LeftWinger said:

I only mention buyout because Howard's and Ericsson contracts have been deemed untradeable around these parts. So if we had to get rid of them some other way, it'd be buyout. Besides you know very well if I said trade Howard, the vultures would've attacked me with we can't trade him, plus he has a NTC. I just want good goaltending, do we trust Howard to stay healthy or do we hope for Mrazek to bounce back? What if we keep both and neither happen?

We pick high in the draft again next year? So a no lose proposition 

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11 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Why do so many people want to dump Dekeyser? He's having a bad year, but so are most of the players. A real coach and a top pair D so he has more help and he probably looks a lot better. Maybe still overpaid, but not drastically so.

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Because he's a decent player, would get us a high draft pick, and costs too much.  He's exactly the kind of guy I'd move.  Good enough to get a decent return, but not so good that we can't live without him.

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Because he's a decent player, would get us a high draft pick, and costs too much.  He's exactly the kind of guy I'd move.  Good enough to get a decent return, but not so good that we can't live without him.

Because of his contract there would be limited suitors, and he wouldn't be easily replaced immediately.

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4 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Because he's a decent player, would get us a high draft pick, and costs too much.  He's exactly the kind of guy I'd move.  Good enough to get a decent return, but not so good that we can't live without him.

I agree with you in theory, but practically speaking this team has struggled big time in acquiring/developing top 4 d-men. I would hate to trade the one we have that is still young enough to improve and be here when we contend again. 5mil in a few years for a #4 d-man will not be that bad.

Now if we can swap him for a better D-man, do it.

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22 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

The reality is Green and Dekeyser are 2nd pairing guys.  They shouldn't be playing against top tier guys.

And Holland can't get anyone better, so they're stuck playing as the top pair.  Dumping Either of them without bringing in a better player isn't going to help, unless your goal is to be a cellar dweller next year.

Edited by DickieDunn

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14 hours ago, DickieDunn said:


Because of his contract there would be limited suitors, and he wouldn't be easily replaced immediately.

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We don't need to "immediately" replace him.  We won't be good for at least another three years.  We need to replace him/improve upon him by then.  Which wouldn't be that hard.  I feel the same way about Nyquist and Tatar.  I'd move DK and one of them.  They'd all get you a first rounder.  Three first round picks would be HUGE in a couple years.  Then sign FA's to fill out your roster. 

Besides, why keep him?  By the next time we're any good he'll be 30 years old, his contract will still suck, and he'll be even less worth it.

Edit:  Also, aren't you the guy who CONSTANTLY complains about overpriced guys who are only suituationally good? 

Edited by kipwinger

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On 3/17/2017 at 1:55 AM, Buppy said:

The bolded annoys me too, mostly because I think it's just Kenny playing spin doctor. It's something I think he does too much. Fans aren't going to be appeased by words anyway, so I don't know why he bothers. But he isn't actually wrong. Keep in mind that Tatar and Jensen were drafted in 2009. 8 years ago. It does take 10+ years, just not 10+ more years from where we already are (unless you're talking tear apart everything we already have and start over). 

That said, aside from maybe some specifics regarding certain players you may not care for, your plan is more or less what we're already doing. But I would say that whomever we draft this year could very well be a part of the team next season, and I would hope if we're getting rid of Dekeyser and Nyquist it would be to add something to the team besides "futures" that will maybe develop into the next DK/Nyq in a few years. Especially since when your 3 years are up, Kronwall/Ericsson will likely be done (possibly Zetterberg too). 

I agree that whoever we draft this year will most likely be in the lineup.  I just left them out of the lineup I proposed because I didn't want to speculate in who we'd take.  And it is because of this that I'd move DK and Nyquist or Tatar (preferably Nyquist).  They each probably get us a 1st this year.  With 3 firsts we have the ability to 1) move up (if we're drafting 4-7th) and get an impact player in the draft, or 2) depending on our lottery position draft an impact player without moving up and get two later 1st rounders to further stock the cupboard, or 3) get a high lottery pick, then trade 2 later round picks for one pick in the 7-10th spot.  All of which seem like better options to me than hanging on to them and hoping they don't continue to regress between now and when we're likely to be competitive again.

Edited by kipwinger

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To me, DK is one of the building blocks. Not a top pairing Dman, but a solid #3 guy and since he's fairly young, he can definitely still be a part of the future. The last 5+ years should be a lesson on how hard it is to find young top 4 Dmen. He's slightly over-payed, but really not by much. If we're making space by dumping bigger contracts it should be older players than won't be part of that future like Howard, Ericsson, Kronwall (LTIR probably at some point), Nielson?, and maybe one of Abby or Helm (Helm can be traded due to the clause in his NTC - I know others can't) 

I know that those guys probably wouldn't bring a 1st like you were thinking with DK. But there's really need to hurt the team for another 1st rounder, especially when everyone says this is a draft without a whole lot of 1st round elite talent. I don't think that we're suddenly going to be a contender next year and I think we'll get more than one shot at the high draft picks. There'll be other ways to get some extra picks (Green deadline trade next year? Howard trade at some point? Some were interested in Sheahan apparently) 

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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