Time for a reset/restore

[LeftWinger 4,961]

Ok, in order to reset we need to cut salary bigtime! Here's a optimal scenario: Helm gets claimed by Vegas, we are able to trade BOTH Howard and Ericsson over the summer, Kronwall goes on LTIR (or even better, comes back 100% and ready to be "kronwall" again.) (I only says Helm gets claimed to avoid the fight over Nyquist again... Ideally one of the $4M+ guys gets claimed by Vegas, no matter which, Nyquist, Helm or Abby.) 

We draft Tippet in the top #5, trade up to draft Hague in the bottom 10 of the 1st.  I know the argument about buy outs, but if we cannot trade E (retain some salary) then the buyout is a nice option. With the buyout it doubles his length to 6 years, but the cap it is modest at $1.6M, $1.3M, $1.3M, $1.3M, $1.3M, $1.3M.  I'd much rather trade him and retain $1.5M for the next 3, but buyout is always an option. Which ever way, we need to open up that D spot and cap relief.

DK is most definitely and building block. He has had a couple of bad seasons, but as many of you have argued to me about other players, he's not the only one to regress under Blashill. I agree that with legit top #1 and #2's on this team, Green and DK would be much better suited at #3 and #4.

If we lost Helm to Vegas, traded Jimmy, LTIR Kronwall and Franzen and bought out Ericsson we'd have $26M in cap space for the summer. No problem's now with money or roster spots.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

DK isnt going anywhere

[kickazz 5,459]

Why does everyone keep saying Kronwall goes into LTIR? You can't magically put a player on LTIR. They need to be officially declared by doctors as being unfit to play. That playing further would hamper their long term health. 

People here act like just because Franzen was put on LTIR, anyone can be. Franzen took like 8 concussions to stop playing hockey lol. 

Remember Steve Yzerman had a broken face, a knee that needed to be replaced but he still couldn't be placed on an LTIR to stop playing forever. It's literally the last resort for a player who can't skate on ice without having the risk of becoming handicapped and/or dead. 

It's not happening, Kronwall is not going on LTIR. Move on from the idea. He has bad knees, that's literally nothing compared to concussion syndrome. He has a much (much x100) higher probability of finishing the two years on his contract. 

Just don't include it on your "reset/restore" plan. We're stuck with the contract till 2019. 

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

3 hours ago, kipwinger said:

We don't need to "immediately" replace him.  We won't be good for at least another three years.  We need to replace him/improve upon him by then.  Which wouldn't be that hard.  I feel the same way about Nyquist and Tatar.  I'd move DK and one of them.  They'd all get you a first rounder.  Three first round picks would be HUGE in a couple years.  Then sign FA's to fill out your roster. 

Besides, why keep him?  By the next time we're any good he'll be 30 years old, his contract will still suck, and he'll be even less worth it.

Edit:  Also, aren't you the guy who CONSTANTLY complains about overpriced guys who are only suituationally good? 

What makes you think someone would give up a first round pick for any of them?

I already explained why they should probably keep him, unless it's part of a trade to improve the defense.  If they can get a top pair D so he's not the default #1 guy and he could play a role he's more suited to play, he'd be better.  He's not significant;y overpaid, either.  There are much worse contracts that need to be moved before that.

Ken Holland /ownership won't let the team tank.  Personally, I'd be fine with moving any and all players over the age of 27 who they can get a decent return for, and just dumping Abdelkader, Helm, and Glendening for a broken stick.  It's not happening though, which means Dekeyser isn't going anywhere. 

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

Why does everyone keep saying Kronwall goes into LTIR? You can't magically put a player on LTIR. They need to be officially declared by doctors as being unfit to play. That playing further would hamper their long term health. 

People here act like just because Franzen was put on LTIR, anyone can be. Franzen took like 8 concussions to stop playing hockey lol. 

Remember Steve Yzerman had a broken face, a knee that needed to be replaced but he still couldn't be placed on an LTIR to stop playing forever. It's literally the last resort for a player who can't skate on ice without having the risk of becoming handicapped and/or dead. 

It's not happening, Kronwall is not going on LTIR. Move on from the idea. He has bad knees, that's literally nothing compared to concussion syndrome. He has a much (much x100) higher probability of finishing the two years on his contract. 

Just don't include it on your "reset/restore" plan. We're stuck with the contract till 2019. 

 

The way his knee is, I don't think it's a stretch to think he could qualify.  

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

Why does everyone keep saying Kronwall goes into LTIR? You can't magically put a player on LTIR. They need to be officially declared by doctors as being unfit to play. That playing further would hamper their long term health. 

People here act like just because Franzen was put on LTIR, anyone can be. Franzen took like 8 concussions to stop playing hockey lol. 

Remember Steve Yzerman had a broken face, a knee that needed to be replaced but he still couldn't be placed on an LTIR to stop playing forever. It's literally the last resort for a player who can't skate on ice without having the risk of becoming handicapped and/or dead. 

It's not happening, Kronwall is not going on LTIR. Move on from the idea. He has bad knees, that's literally nothing compared to concussion syndrome. He has a much (much x100) higher probability of finishing the two years on his contract. 

Just don't include it on your "reset/restore" plan. We're stuck with the contract till 2019. 

Some are acting as if it's absolutely going to happen, and it's just a matter of time. I think it's possible that Kronwall plays out his contract, but I don't think it's an absolute like you're making it seem either. Of course Holland can't just put him on LTIR, there has to be a legit reason, but I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. It is very possible that his knees continue to wear down over the next two years. If he's not able to play, he will go on LTIR. It won't likely be the sort of situation where they say next year that his career is over, but they could say he's out for a month, which ends up being months, that ends up being the better part of the season...

[kickazz 5,459]

If he goes down to LTIR for a month or more mid season it doesn't help us. We still have his cap to start the season so it doesn't help us when signing/resigning players in the summer.

He hasn't been missing many games lately and his minutes played per game is actually higher than it was beginning of the season. It looks as though he's learning to deal with the pain. Another reason why I think he'll be adamant about finishing the contract.  

Edited March 18, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

If we lost Helm to Vegas, traded Jimmy, LTIR Kronwall and Franzen and bought out Ericsson we'd have $26M in cap space for the summer. No problem's now with money or roster spots.

I'm referring to this btw. 

Edited March 18, 2017 by kickazz

[LeftWinger 4,961]

4 minutes ago, kickazz said:

I'm referring to this btw. 

Either I'm tired or I am missing the jest....

[kickazz 5,459]

5 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Either I'm tired or I am missing the jest....

I'm just saying that Kronwall going on LTIR in the summer to clear cap space for us is highly unlikely. It's not impossible and I could be wrong but the chances aren't good if you play 46 games of hockey 20 minutes per night through a supposed bad knee. It would be one thing if he played like only 10 games this year or something but the fact that he's able to play that much shows me his prognosis is better than what people assuming. I'm just throwing this number out there but I say 90% chance he finishes the contract. 

So as far as reset/restore, I'd assume Kronwall stays on the books. Ericsson not going to be bought out either. I'm just saying lets be realistic, it's Holland. 

Edited March 18, 2017 by kickazz

[LeftWinger 4,961]

Oh, ok... meh, if he doesn't then we'd still have about $22M in cap space. Still much, much better than we have projected now.

[kliq 3,755]

7 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

The reality is Green and Dekeyser are 2nd pairing guys.  They shouldn't be playing against top tier guys.

Ya unfortunately the Kronwall/E regressions forced this as its definitely our biggest issue. Take out Kronwall/E, give us say Keith/Seabrook and all of a sudden we have an elite D. Now I'm sure almost every team could say this, but my point is that we lack that #1 and #2 guy right now. DD/Green are a very good 2nd pairing, and between XO, Sproul, Russo, Hickets, and Jensen we can easily put together a very good 3rd pairing. Hopefully we can pull off a trade this off-season.

I wonder if DD/Tatar would get the Trouba convo going again?

[kickazz 5,459]

I think Green would be a great 1st pair if he had a partner like Keith. But I can't say the same about DK. I think DK is a 2nd paid guy no matter how good his partner is. At least that's how this season seems. 

Edited March 18, 2017 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

I still think Kronwall can be a serviceable defensemen, with reduced minutes / responsibility, so I'm hoping he finishes his contract. I'm not so sure he will though. Wouldn't be at all shocked to see him on LTIR at some point next season or to start the 2018-19 season...

[kickazz 5,459]

6 minutes ago, kliq said:

I wonder if DD/Tatar would get the Trouba convo going again?

Yes assuming we sign and trade Tatar. 

Edited March 18, 2017 by kickazz

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Everyone knows that Kronwall's playing injured. There's a chance he plays out the remaining 2 years, but I think that it's likely he won't. We should definitely plan for the situation of him going down midseason. If Franzen's still on LTIR, I don't think we get cap relief so It should be in the plans to trade Mule's contract to prepare.

Wasn't mentioning it in the sense of forcing him to LTIR. I'm definitely not hoping that on him and I think he's still a good 2nd pairing guy for us. It would open up space though, if it happened. I was just mentioning other routes to cap space beside trading one of our best young D men.

[LeftWinger 4,961]

NM....my bad

Edited March 18, 2017 by LeftWinger

[kickazz 5,459]

Nvm. So we still have a shot at a high pick. Yay!

Edited March 18, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

Ya'll are underestimating the Kronner. 

[Buppy 1,720]

10 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I agree that whoever we draft this year will most likely be in the lineup.  I just left them out of the lineup I proposed because I didn't want to speculate in who we'd take.  And it is because of this that I'd move DK and Nyquist or Tatar (preferably Nyquist).  They each probably get us a 1st this year.  With 3 firsts we have the ability to 1) move up (if we're drafting 4-7th) and get an impact player in the draft, or 2) depending on our lottery position draft an impact player without moving up and get two later 1st rounders to further stock the cupboard, or 3) get a high lottery pick, then trade 2 later round picks for one pick in the 7-10th spot.  All of which seem like better options to me than hanging on to them and hoping they don't continue to regress between now and when we're likely to be competitive again.

I think it's optimistic to think you could get a 1st. Probably also that we could use them to trade up. And even if we did both, it's pretty optimistic to think that whomever we then drafted would turn out any better than either of those guys. 

I wouldn't be opposed to trading Nyquist or Tatar (or even both depending on who we draft, and where our other prospects are at) for defensive help, maybe even for a pick if someone was dangling a decent 1st-rounder and there was a kid I liked still available. Dekeyser I wouldn't move for anything I think we could actually get (unless we were able to flip Nyq/Tatar for some major help on D). I haven't been too impressed with any of our kids this year.  

9 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Ok, in order to reset we need to cut salary bigtime! ...

If we lost Helm to Vegas, traded Jimmy, LTIR Kronwall and Franzen and bought out Ericsson we'd have $26M in cap space for the summer. No problem's now with money or roster spots.

And what would we do with that cap space? Clear a bunch of cap then throw a fortune at Shattenkirk, only to immediately start bitching that we need to dump him so we can go after the next guy? We're not going to turn the team around with UFAs. Not likely to turn the team around overnight either. We don't need to desperately dump cap, especially not cap that will be gone within three years anyway. 

8 hours ago, kickazz said:

Why does everyone keep saying Kronwall goes into LTIR? You can't magically put a player on LTIR. They need to be officially declared by doctors as being unfit to play. That playing further would hamper their long term health. ...

While that's true that we couldn't just force him to IR, he does have chronic knee issues. I'd think any doctor would say playing further poses a significant risk of further damage. I think if he were decide he didn't want to play anymore, we'd have no problem getting LTIR for him. 

[kickazz 5,459]

LTIR cap circumvention is going to get nailed by the next CBA (in 2021) imo. Of course by then Kronwall would be retired. 

Edited March 19, 2017 by kickazz

[LeftWinger 4,961]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

You must not know who our GM is.  I got Kronwall pegged as a Eed Wing through 2025.

While I agree that Holland will probably re-sign him if he feels he can play, but he'll probably do the 1 yr at a time thing like with Lidstrom. 

7 hours ago, Buppy said:

I think it's optimistic to think you could get a 1st. Probably also that we could use them to trade up. And even if we did both, it's pretty optimistic to think that whomever we then drafted would turn out any better than either of those guys. 

I wouldn't be opposed to trading Nyquist or Tatar (or even both depending on who we draft, and where our other prospects are at) for defensive help, maybe even for a pick if someone was dangling a decent 1st-rounder and there was a kid I liked still available. Dekeyser I wouldn't move for anything I think we could actually get (unless we were able to flip Nyq/Tatar for some major help on D). I haven't been too impressed with any of our kids this year.  

And what would we do with that cap space? Clear a bunch of cap then throw a fortune at Shattenkirk, only to immediately start bitching that we need to dump him so we can go after the next guy? We're not going to turn the team around with UFAs. Not likely to turn the team around overnight either. We don't need to desperately dump cap, especially not cap that will be gone within three years anyway. 

While that's true that we couldn't just force him to IR, he does have chronic knee issues. I'd think any doctor would say playing further poses a significant risk of further damage. I think if he were decide he didn't want to play anymore, we'd have no problem getting LTIR for him. 

You fill it with nobody big. You play your youth and have some cap space for once in our cap history in case you're at that point where you need to acquire that one or two players at the deadline. Having cap breathing room is not a bad thing in a reset/rebuild.

[kickazz 5,459]

There's not much benefit in Kronwall going on LTIR next year anyways. We'll already have $20 million+ of cap space in 2018. Now if he goes on LTIR before this summer it would help.

But he won't. Unless I just jinxed him.

Edited March 19, 2017 by kickazz

[kipwinger 8,524]

13 hours ago, Buppy said:

I think it's optimistic to think you could get a 1st. Probably also that we could use them to trade up. And even if we did both, it's pretty optimistic to think that whomever we then drafted would turn out any better than either of those guys. 

I wouldn't be opposed to trading Nyquist or Tatar (or even both depending on who we draft, and where our other prospects are at) for defensive help, maybe even for a pick if someone was dangling a decent 1st-rounder and there was a kid I liked still available. Dekeyser I wouldn't move for anything I think we could actually get (unless we were able to flip Nyq/Tatar for some major help on D). I haven't been too impressed with any of our kids this year. 

I'm confused by your response.  If a 1st rounder isn't likely to turn out as good as DK and Nyquist are now why wouldn't a team looking to win now be willing to trade the 1st? 

And also, a first would have more value to us anyway (regardless of the risk) because we are (ideally) looking to be competitive in 3-4 years.  So it matters a great deal less how good DK and Nyquist are now, but rather how good they will be then.  Assuming we kept Tatar, we don't really need Nyquist.  Seems pretty clear that some combination of AA, Mantha, Svechnikov, and Tatar are going to be the top six wingers going forward.  Nyquist is a pretty expensive 3rd liner.  Why not get the pick and hope to turn it into the next Werenski?  Same with Dekeyser.  He's not a top pairing defenseman NOW.  He definitely won't be in a few  years.  So what's the point of keeping him when we could move him and trust that our scouting and development will find/develop someone (at least) as good as DK is now in a few years when we need it?

Edited March 19, 2017 by kipwinger

[LeftWinger 4,961]

If Nyquist got us a 1st, and it led us to picking Hague, PLUS we kept our #1 and got Tippett, Holland would be my personal hero and I would forgive him for all the abused tires from his past! 

[kipwinger 8,524]

Why do you want another winger?  It's already a position of strength for us.