Time for a reset/restore

[Buppy 1,720]

3 hours ago, kipwinger said:

I'm confused by your response.  If a 1st rounder isn't likely to turn out as good as DK and Nyquist are now why wouldn't a team looking to win now be willing to trade the 1st? 

And also, a first would have more value to us anyway (regardless of the risk) because we are (ideally) looking to be competitive in 3-4 years.  So it matters a great deal less how good DK and Nyquist are now, but rather how good they will be then.  Assuming we kept Tatar, we don't really need Nyquist.  Seems pretty clear that some combination of AA, Mantha, Svechnikov, and Tatar are going to be the top six wingers going forward.  Nyquist is a pretty expensive 3rd liner.  Why not get the pick and hope to turn it into the next Werenski?  Same with Dekeyser.  He's not a top pairing defenseman NOW.  He definitely won't be in a few  years.  So what's the point of keeping him when we could move him and trust that our scouting and development will find/develop someone (at least) as good as DK is now in a few years when we need it?

Teams don't part with 1st-rounders easily. When they do it's usually done at the deadline. Trades made around draft time are usually moves up/down a few spots. Trades like you want are rather rare. Like I said, if some team was willing to give up a first for Nyquist I'd consider it. But I wouldn't get my hopes up, and I'd rather try to get some defensive help. A pick wouldn't be my first choice of return.

As for Dekeyser, I think we probably don't agree about what kind of player he is, so probably not worth discussing. But you need more than one good defenseman. 

[kipwinger 8,524]

33 minutes ago, Buppy said:

Teams don't part with 1st-rounders easily. When they do it's usually done at the deadline. Trades made around draft time are usually moves up/down a few spots. Trades like you want are rather rare. Like I said, if some team was willing to give up a first for Nyquist I'd consider it. But I wouldn't get my hopes up, and I'd rather try to get some defensive help. A pick wouldn't be my first choice of return.

As for Dekeyser, I think we probably don't agree about what kind of player he is, so probably not worth discussing. But you need more than one good defenseman. 

I didn't think we were discussing the feasibility of trading Nyquist or Dekeyser.  But rather that you didn't think they'd fetch a 1st rounder, yet that they're both much better than a 1st rounder would likely be.  I agree it doesn't happen often.  Mostly because teams don't trade guys like Nyquist and Dekeyser very often when they're under contract.  When they do, they're worth 1st rounders, though I'll concede that the more common return is appropriately valued prospects (I'd be fine with that too).

I agree that we need more than one good defenseman.  I think we probably even agree that Dekeyser is a pretty good defenseman.  I just don't think we agree on WHEN it would be useful to have them, whether DK will still be this good then, what we should do in the mean time. I also don't think that Dekeyser is so good that it's unreasonable to think that between drafting, UFA, and what we have now that we couldn't (in a couple years) have a better defense without Dekeyser than we do with him.

Edited March 20, 2017 by kipwinger

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Regardless of the odds of say, the 20th overall pick, has of producing a high end player, teams still value that pick more than a known quantity like Nyquist, Tatar, or Dekeyser. Therefore even though that pick has a decent chance of never being as good as one of those 3, teams are unlikely to trade the pick for one of those players. It's the same logic that made Sproul "untouchable" when he was in juniors and Nyquist and Tatar when they were in GR.

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[LeftWinger 4,961]

Patrick, Tippett or vilardi. In that order. But any one of them would be great.

I prefer Tippett because I believe in 3 yrs time, Larkin and AA will be your 2 top centers and Tippett will be your #1 Right handed power forward. I looking to the future, not next year. We'll need Tippett considering we have nobody like him in the system. 

[kickazz 5,459]

19 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Patrick, Tippett or vilardi. In that order. But any one of them would be great.

I prefer Tippett because I believe in 3 yrs time, Larkin and AA will be your 2 top centers and Tippett will be your #1 Right handed power forward. I looking to the future, not next year. We'll need Tippett considering we have nobody like him in the system. 

Trust me you want Patrick. You always want a center. AA can be a winger going forward if it meant Patrick was a center to replace Z. 

[LeftWinger 4,961]

Hence my preference order...but we'll pretty much have to get the #1 to land Patrick...and if we're to have a chance at that we have to stop winning, period. Probably not win another game. #7 doesn't get us any of my top 3...maybe Tippett falls, but I doubt it.

[Dabura 12,207]

On 3/17/2017 at 11:59 AM, DickieDunn said:

They really aren't that far off. A coach who gets his players to play to their ability and has a system that works and one top pair D and they should be a playoff team.

Debbie Downer time! So: If we get a new coach...and we get a #1 defenseman (who would cost at least one of Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou, Tatar)...and the team plays much better than it did this season...then we should be a playoff team.

While I don't disagree with that, it does kind of speak to how far we are from Perennial Powerhouse status. Like, Zetterberg is far and away our best player right now...and he's at the tail end of his career. Mantha has impressed this year, but I do think Zetterberg is largely responsible for that. (Same with Larkin last season.) Howard has been much better than Mrazek. Green is our best defenseman. We're mostly being led by guys in their 30s. This is not promising. I think Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou, and Svechnikov all have great potential, but I'm not convinced they're going to be enough.

IMO, even if we were to land Nolan Patrick and acquire Justin Faulk for a dollar, I'd still say the Wings have a long way to go. I think we're going to have to suck for two or three years, cash in some lottery picks, hope we're gifted two or three truly elite players. Because we need elite talent in the worst way. The only player on the current roster who's playing at an elite level is Zetterberg.

I hope I'm wrong and that a couple of upgrades can get us right back to playing for the Cup. But, at this point in time, I'm not seeing it.

[kliq 3,755]

3 hours ago, Dabura said:

Debbie Downer time! So: If we get a new coach...and we get a #1 defenseman (who would cost at least one of Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou, Tatar)...and the team plays much better than it did this season...then we should be a playoff team.

While I don't disagree with that, it does kind of speak to how far we are from Perennial Powerhouse status. Like, Zetterberg is far and away our best player right now...and he's at the tail end of his career. Mantha has impressed this year, but I do think Zetterberg is largely responsible for that. (Same with Larkin last season.) Howard has been much better than Mrazek. Green is our best defenseman. We're mostly being led by guys in their 30s. This is not promising. I think Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou, and Svechnikov all have great potential, but I'm not convinced they're going to be enough.

IMO, even if we were to land Nolan Patrick and acquire Justin Faulk for a dollar, I'd still say the Wings have a long way to go. I think we're going to have to suck for two or three years, cash in some lottery picks, hope we're gifted two or three truly elite players. Because we need elite talent in the worst way. The only player on the current roster who's playing at an elite level is Zetterberg.

I hope I'm wrong and that a couple of upgrades can get us right back to playing for the Cup. But, at this point in time, I'm not seeing it.

To be fair, Dickie didn't say anything about us playing for a cup, he was talking about us being a playoff team. I think people really underestimate the parity in today's NHL. The difference between being a lottery pick and an 8th seed is much closer then you think. Look at TB, Dal Columbus etc. All examples of how a team can go from being on top, to out of it just like that and vice versa. 

Now, contending for a cup, that is a different story.

[Dabura 12,207]

1 minute ago, kliq said:

To be fair, Dickie didn't say anything about us playing for a cup, he was talking about us being a playoff team. I think people really underestimate the parity in today's NHL. The difference between being a lottery pick and an 8th seed is much closer then you think. Look at TB, Dal Columbus etc. All examples of how a team can go from being on top, to out of it just like that and vice versa. 

Now, contending for a cup, that is a different story.

Sure. Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth. Just sayin'. I'd say this season's team was a playoff team, at least on paper. But I'm hoping the goal, from here on out, is to actually build and maintain a perennial Cup contender. Nah mean?

[LeftWinger 4,961]

If the right couple of moved are made over the summer, along with new coaches, they could very well be back in the playoffs in 2018.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

The question is, SHOULD the goal be playoffs, or should they go with a full blown youth movement and let Larkin, AA and Mantha lead the team forward, win or lose?

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[sjr2012 439]

6 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

The question is, SHOULD the goal be playoffs, or should they go with a full blown youth movement and let Larkin, AA and Mantha lead the team forward, win or lose?

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id love it but i think financially they dont want the new arena to be empty from years of a bottom feeding team its smarter letting the youth grow but this is all up to the owners outlook

Edited March 22, 2017 by sjr2012

[krsmith17 7,191]

We've all been saying for a while now that our biggest need is that right-handed, top pair defenseman. We definitely need that top pairing defenseman, but we have Green that is capable on the top pair, and I think Jensen is a very capable top 4. I'd be leaning more toward going after a left-handed, top pair defenseman to pair with Green, because DeKeyser clearly isn't one. Maybe we can somehow get Fowler out of Anaheim before the expansion draft. I'd like to see something like this going into next season...

Fowler - Green

DeKeyser - Jensen

Ouellet - Sproul / Kronwall

[DBR 12]

On 3/7/2017 at 8:56 AM, OldTimeWinger said:

The Detroit Red Wings crash is officially here. There’s no easy or quick fix. So, settle down and in for a rough time.

 

For the 2017-18 season, the Wings have 17 players signed with a $67.7m cap hit against a projected $73m ceiling. And, for the 2018-19, the Wings have 10 players signed with a $51.7m cap hit against a projected $73m ceiling. Regardless if it counts against the cap number, Johan Franzen hasn’t played a truly meaningful number of games since the 2011-12 season, but still draws almost $4m a year. Meanwhile, GM Ken Holland’s albatross Stephen Weiss, who last played NHL hockey in the 2014-15 season and was  bought out in 2015, will draw an average $1.6m for the next FOUR years.

 

Yes, every team has hiccups and busts, but savvy hockey operations offset those mistakes with corrections in other areas of the ledger to prevent falling off the cliff. We hear repeatedly around the trade deadline, draft day and off season that hockey is a business. However, the DRW front office – Holland, Assist. to GM Kris Draper, Player Evaluation Jiri Fischer and Sr. V.P. Jim Devellano – is seemingly incapable of biting the bullet for fear of burning bridges or pissing someone off.

 

As a result of the “we are family” approach, the Wings, in part, have slipped into the playoffs in recent years and today are 25-27-11 and -29. The 28^th best team in the league.

 

There would be no point or value in assessing the current roster. These are OUR Red Wings …  for now. Rather, I would like to see is a fundamental shift in how hockey operations and the coaching staff assemble and build the team. Trusting fans have told to be patient as the precious assets (young guns) are slowly worked onto the big club, learning and maturing with superstars and wily veterans. It was supposed to secure a successful future. So, where is the line on the ice, where difficult hockey (business) decisions are made to determine if a manager or player is truly an asset or an albatross? This is where tough decisions need to be made for the club’s betterment.

 

I grow weary of excuses like “salary cap,” “long-term contracts,” “a different NHL.” Blah, blah, blah. Yes, I am spoiled. I follow one of the most successful hockey teams in NHL history. There was a dogged reason/strategy/purpose on the bench, behind the bench and in the owner’s box that is now missing.

 

I’m not asking for change for the sake of change. I’m asking for tectonic shift to reset/restore what it means to operate and represent the Detroit Red Wings.

I absolutely agree with you, OlfTimeWinger. I hope that they are able to somehow shed salaries of "dead" assets from this past season, Franzen being one and underachievers  Sheehan) for another. Actually, the only players in my opinion worth keeping/protecting are AA, Larkin and Manrha.  Build a team around them  like I said earlier, I don't know how or if they can get rid of the rest of the remaining players, but if there is a way, I wish they would  unfortunately, until the management of our beloved Detroit Red Wings is changed and upgraded from the Gm down, I'm afraid we will hear more of the same like we have heard for the last few years and nothing major will change.  

 

 

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Isnt Franzens cap hit off the books? Why would we need to shed him?

[DickieDunn 2,571]

No. It counts until the season starts then they get relief for his cap hit.

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[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

19 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

No. It counts until the season starts then they get relief for his cap hit.

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Yeah but dont you only have to cap compliant once the season starts?

[DickieDunn 2,571]

You can be 10% over in the off season then you have to be at or below the cap. If a player is on ltir you can get relief equalling his cap hit.

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[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

You can be 10% over in the off season then you have to be at or below the cap. If a player is on ltir you can get relief equalling his cap hit.

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10% so like 7+ million dollars? Thats more than enough to cover Franzen

[joshy207 156]

On 3/19/2017 at 9:33 AM, LeftWinger said:

While I agree that Holland will probably re-sign him if he feels he can play, but he'll probably do the 1 yr at a time thing like with Lidstrom. 

You fill it with nobody big. You play your youth and have some cap space for once in our cap history in case you're at that point where you need to acquire that one or two players at the deadline. Having cap breathing room is not a bad thing in a reset/rebuild.

That is what should have happened with Datsyuk's cap space.