The Streak is officially over

[frankgrimes 1,836]

4 hours ago, Buppy said:

What was so candid and thoughtful about Devellano's comments?

He said you need stars, and you need to draft high to get them, and we haven't drafted high because we've been too good. Holland has said similar things in the past and been blasted for making excuses. 

He said we've been trying to keep the streak alive (as if that wasn't obvious). When Holland has said we want to be competitive and get in the playoffs, people here turn it into another idiot meme. Why wasn't it a breath of fresh air then? Or do you mean the, "bit us in the rear this year" part? What does that even mean? Would our losing have been less lose-y if it had been intentional? 

If anything, I'd say Devellano is pandering to fans. Like I said in my previous post, we have been rebuilding, regardless of what term anyone wants to use to describe it. Devellano says "the rebuild is on", I think he's just trying to say what fans want to hear. Trying to spin our losing into a reason to be hopeful. Kenny 'sticking to his script' at least shows some conviction.

I do wish Kenny would stop with the "massive rebuild" talk, since that isn't what fans are really asking for. I doubt there are many, if any, who think we need to gut the team completely and start from scratch. But at the same time, if as a fan you recognize that we don't need that, you should then also recognize that we have been building for the future all along.

That we've been able to add what we have without sucking so far is something we should be proud of, not something that should have us breaking out the torches and pitchforks. Chicago was out of the playoffs for quite a while before they landed Kane and Toews, Five top 10 picks, plus a few more in the top half of the 1st round, but none of that really contributed to their Cup wins. Keith was a late 2nd rounder. Aside from that, they didn't "build" any more than we have without tanking, and what they did get were from later picks they could have had without sucking.

We need to stop acting like "preserving the streak" was some great organizational mistake. 

Speak for yourself, thanks.

Making the streak more important than building a roster that could contend for a Stanley Cup in the future was a mistake, period. Experts - you know people who are paid to talk, write and what not about hockey - are saying the same thing. If this season wasn't an eye opener to some, nothing will be but thankfully it doesn't matter hopefully Chris Ilitch sees the Wings without his rose colored glasses and will see what they need to do in order to restore the once glorious winged wheel.

 

[Dabura 12,207]

4 hours ago, Buppy said:

What was so candid and thoughtful about Devellano's comments?

He said you need stars, and you need to draft high to get them, and we haven't drafted high because we've been too good. Holland has said similar things in the past and been blasted for making excuses. 

He said we've been trying to keep the streak alive (as if that wasn't obvious). When Holland has said we want to be competitive and get in the playoffs, people here turn it into another idiot meme. Why wasn't it a breath of fresh air then? Or do you mean the, "bit us in the rear this year" part? What does that even mean? Would our losing have been less lose-y if it had been intentional? 

If anything, I'd say Devellano is pandering to fans. Like I said in my previous post, we have been rebuilding, regardless of what term anyone wants to use to describe it. Devellano says "the rebuild is on", I think he's just trying to say what fans want to hear. Trying to spin our losing into a reason to be hopeful. Kenny 'sticking to his script' at least shows some conviction.

I do wish Kenny would stop with the "massive rebuild" talk, since that isn't what fans are really asking for. I doubt there are many, if any, who think we need to gut the team completely and start from scratch. But at the same time, if as a fan you recognize that we don't need that, you should then also recognize that we have been building for the future all along.

That we've been able to add what we have without sucking so far is something we should be proud of, not something that should have us breaking out the torches and pitchforks. Chicago was out of the playoffs for quite a while before they landed Kane and Toews, Five top 10 picks, plus a few more in the top half of the 1st round, but none of that really contributed to their Cup wins. Keith was a late 2nd rounder. Aside from that, they didn't "build" any more than we have without tanking, and what they did get were from later picks they could have had without sucking.

We need to stop acting like "preserving the streak" was some great organizational mistake. 

Devellano:

"For some time now, some people have been bugging us to rebuild," Devellano said. "Kenny Holland and I together, as long as we thought we could keep the streak going, make the playoffs, we were going to continue to do that. We just felt we owed it to a lot of people to try to be in the top half of the league. But the truth of the matter is it finally bit us in the (rear) this year.

"The rebuild is on. You saw the first part of that at the (trade) deadline when Kenny wheeled four players for draft picks (the Red Wings have 11 selections in the 2017 draft and nine in 2018).

"To our coaches' credit and Zetterberg's credit and (Niklas) Kronwall's credit, they're still trying hard to keep us respectable. And I think we have been. We've won a few games and when we lose it's usually pretty close. The culture is still there, but we lack star players and we have to go forward now and look for an opportunity to draft those kinds of people."

[ . . . . ] "To some degree, when I arrived in 1982 to a bad franchise, when I got Yzerman in '83 in my first draft, it was night and day," Devellano said. "He made a big impact right away -- 39 goals as an 18-year-old. I don't think you can put time (frame) on things. There's some luck involved. By luck, I mean the ability to get that kind of franchise player - (Sidney) Crosby, McDavid, Yzerman, (Mario) Lemieux. You get that type of player and the rebuild moves quickly.

"But I'm told that player isn't in the draft this year. There are good players, but (not) the guy that moves the needle -- Sidney Crosby, Patrick Kane and (Jonathan) Toews coming in and all the sudden the team that was bad got good in a hurry.

"Truthfully, and I said I wouldn't put a time (frame) on it, it would be nice if you could accomplish something in three years. But you're going to need some luck."

Holland:

“I think we want to be competitive,” Red Wings GM Ken Holland said on Prime Time Sports Thursday evening. “I’m a general manager and as long as I’m a general manager I want us to be the very best we can be. I don’t believe in tear downs and massive rebuilds because I don’t believe you can just guarantee the end result is going to turn out to be Stanley Cups and dynasties. You could go in the wilderness.”

“I look around professional sports and there’s other teams in other sports that were great teams for a long time and now it’s three, four, five years, they can’t get the culture back. Once you lose it, you’re chasing.”

[ . . . . ] "A rebuild, if you want to go that route, it takes a long time with no guarantees on the other end," Holland said. "If there was guarantees then teams that were bad for a while are automatically going to be the elite teams. Well you can look around the league and it doesn’t happen that way."

--------------------

Ken Holland wants people to know that rebuilds are The Great Unknown and that the people clamoring for a rebuild don't understand the reality of rebuilds. Also, he wants to people to know to know that rebuilds are The Great Unknown and that the people clamoring for a rebuild don't understand the reality of rebuilds. Additionally, he wants people to know that rebuilds are The Great Unknown and that the people clamoring for a rebuild don't understand the reality of rebuilds. Oh, also: he wants people to know that rebuilds are The Great Unknown and that the people clamoring for a rebuild don't understand the reality of rebuilds. One more thing: rebuilds take a really long time. We're probably talking at least 400 years. People think rebuild = guaranteed Cups. Well, truth is, rebuilds are The Great Unknown and the people clamoring for a rebuild don't understand the reality of rebuilds. In short: rebuilds are The Great Unknown and the people clamoring for a rebuild don't understand the reality of rebuilds.

P.S. Just to be clear: rebuilds are The Great Unknown and the people clamoring for a rebuild don't understand the reality of rebuilds.

Look, Buppy, I know you like to be The Voice of Reason and point out that Wings fans tend to have stupid opinions, especially when it comes to their complaints regarding Ken Holland and the recent direction of the franchise. And I respect that. But I don't think it's necessary here. I liked what Devellano said more than I liked what Holland said, because even though it's pretty clear that they're on the same page re: the rebuild/the state of the Wings, I've grown tired of Holland dealing in Hollandisms when he speaks to the media and addresses concerns that fans have. I don't want Holland to "pander." Truthfully, I don't really care what he says, as long as his actions are guiding the franchise in the right direction. But I could do without the "Fans say things, and the things they say are stupid. Lemme tell you how it really is" business that he pushes every time he talks to the media.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Dabura

[toby91_ca 620]

Fairly consistent what I heard from him on Toronto radio yesterday.  Same station but different program from what was quoted above (I didn't hear that one).  The things I honestly didn't like hearing from him were that they were really disappointed this year, they didn't achieve what they were planning and thought they'd accomplish, etc.  Is this true?  They were really thinking they were making the playoffs again....if so, surely they'd be thinking it would be a squeak in.  He responds to a direct question about where they are as a team in their progression (in comparison to the Leafs and what they've done over the past 3 years to build.  He point blank said he doesn't believe in rebuilds because there are no guarantees...he's got a bit of a point there, but it much more difficult taking a different route.  He goes on to say that they hope to be competitive again next year, challenging for the playoffs.  Reasoning is that there were several players that performed well below expectations and their norm this year....this the most troubling part for me as he doesn't see much need for change, the current roster will simply perform better next year and challenge to get in?

[Dabura 12,207]

I think when Holland says "rebuild" he means "complete teardown + years of highly calculated suckage." And I think that's him being disingenuous.

[brett 1,029]

i just find it amazing what one person can do to a team...ala auston mattews and conner mcdavid. taking a team from non playoff contender to the playoffs

but those were top 2 picks wonder what a 5th or 6th will bring us

Edited April 2, 2017 by brett

[Andy Pred 48 337]

Would Holland use picks and assets to try and go up in the draft? Being as this years draft isn't as strong , he probably will !

Edited April 2, 2017 by Andy Pred 48

[kliq 3,755]

3 hours ago, brett said:

i just find it amazing what one person can do to a team...ala auston mattews and conner mcdavid. taking a team from non playoff contender to the playoffs

but those were top 2 picks wonder what a 5th or 6th will bring us

You never know right. In 1983 Brian Lawton and Sylvain Turgeon were both drafted before Lafontaine and Yzerman. It really is a crap shoot.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

12 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Signed players. Drafted players. Traded players. 

Signed and traded for players to keep the streak going, not to build a contender.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, DickieDunn said:

Signed and traded for players to keep the streak going, not to build a contender.

Yes Im sure none of those players were signed or traded for with the goal of winning a championship...

You conviently left out drafted players Dick. Did he draft players soley to keep the streak alive as well?

[kliq 3,755]

Just now, DickieDunn said:

Signed and traded for players to keep the streak going, not to build a contender.

In his mind I think he was trying to do the same thing he did between 2002 and 2008, he wanted to keep the team relevant as he transitioned from one group of stars (D & Z) to another (Nyq/Tatar and co.). When he did it from Yzerman/Fed/Shanny etc. to D & Z it worked, this time it didnt as Nyquist and co never amounted to anything more then second tier players.

I agree with you that he didn't build a contender, but I dont think he was just trying to keep the streak alive.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

The Wings don't need a full tear down.  They need to not sign guys like Helm, Abdelkader, Nielsen, Glendening, etc. to 4+ year contracts for too much money.  If they don't get those guys for short term deals, they find cheap vets like Vanek instead.  They need to hold spots for their top young players unless the kid plays himself off the team in camp, not automatically send them to GR until an injury happens.  AA and Mantha should have been in Detroit playing 14+ minutes a night from game 1.  Both were good enough.  They needed to have XO, Marchenko, Sproul, and Jensen up the last couple years to see what they could do, not stockpile them in GR.

Holland's comments about a team never getting good again?  Yeah, if your GM is a moron, keeps drafting the same types of players, and never gets the guys to compliment your top picks, and overpays average players, your team is going to stay bad.  If your GM knows what he's doing, then your team is going to get 2 high end forwards, a #1 D, and acquire quality players to surround them, and give the supporting cast deals that allow you flexibility and not panic at the thought of losing your 3rd line center.  Your team is going to be as good as your GM builds it.  Apparently Holland believes that he'd follow the Oilers model instead of Chicago.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

3 hours ago, brett said:

i just find it amazing what one person can do to a team...ala auston mattews and conner mcdavid. taking a team from non playoff contender to the playoffs

but those were top 2 picks wonder what a 5th or 6th will bring us

Yeah it's absolutely amazing seeing what Toronto did in roughly 2 years, their offense is insane Nylander, Marner and of course Matthews add to that Rielly and this is a real core to build around. Altough they'll have to trade one of the big 3 for defensive help that's for sure. Oilers are just ridiculous McDavid is sane, Draisaitl, Nurse, RNH backstopped by Talbot not bad not bad. I'm really amazed how many of those young kids are already the best players on their altough they are 19, 20 years old must be great to watch them every game.

Would have been a nice time to start the fire-sale before the last 2 drafts so much great talent

Like I've mentioned it doesn't really matter what Holland thinks if Chris doesn't like it Holland will be moved up or out, same with scouts, Blashill and whoever. It's his team now he is the owner and therefore the boss. Gallant, Maloney would be a nice duo if Yzerman doesn't want the job next year.

Edited April 2, 2017 by frankgrimes

[toby91_ca 620]

3 hours ago, brett said:

i just find it amazing what one person can do to a team...ala auston mattews and conner mcdavid. taking a team from non playoff contender to the playoffs

but those were top 2 picks wonder what a 5th or 6th will bring us

One person really can't move the needle that significantly in the NHL.  Edmonton is much more than just McDavid, there are a few key, new players that have moved them into playoff position this year.  As it relates to Toronto, it's even more obvious that it's not one player making big changes.  They have 4 very strong rookies this year (Matthews, Marner and Nylander who all will score 60+ point this year...amazing, and a rookie Dman, Zaitsev, who is threatening 40pts).

[DickieDunn 2,571]

8 minutes ago, kliq said:

In his mind I think he was trying to do the same thing he did between 2002 and 2008, he wanted to keep the team relevant as he transitioned from one group of stars (D & Z) to another (Nyq/Tatar and co.). When he did it from Yzerman/Fed/Shanny etc. to D & Z it worked, this time it didnt as Nyquist and co never amounted to anything more then second tier players.

I agree with you that he didn't build a contender, but I dont think he was just trying to keep the streak alive.

Holland's admitted that he wanted to keep the streak going.  Devellano admitted that was what they were doing.  This isn't speculation, this is what the team said they were doing.

9 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Yes Im sure none of those players were signed or traded for with the goal of winning a championship...

You conviently left out drafted players Dick. Did he draft players soley to keep the streak alive as well?

WTF does that even mean?  Draft players to keep the streak going?

And no, when you're building a contender, you don't give Luke F-ing Glendening almost 2 million a year for 4 years, or an older 2nd/3rd line center like Nielsen a 6 year deal for that much money.  Those moves are designed to "just get in."

[Buppy 1,720]

4 hours ago, frankgrimes said:

Making the streak more important than building a roster that could contend for a Stanley Cup in the future was a mistake, period. Experts - you know people who are paid to talk, write and what not about hockey - are saying the same thing. If this season wasn't an eye opener to some, nothing will be but thankfully it doesn't matter hopefully Chris Ilitch sees the Wings without his rose colored glasses and will see what they need to do in order to restore the once glorious winged wheel.

"Tanking for a high pick" and "Building a contending roster" are not synonymous phrases. Real experts - you know, people who actually know things about hockey - understand that. Conversely, trying to make the playoffs doesn't mean ignoring the future. You're creating a false dichotomy. 

Do you think any parts of the current team are worth keeping? Do we have anything that can be part of a contending roster? If yes, then you have to acknowledge that we have been building. 

And again, Chris Ilitch has been Holland's boss since 2010. Stop acting like it's something new.

4 hours ago, Dabura said:

...
Look, Buppy, I know you like to be The Voice of Reason and point out that Wings fans tend to have stupid opinions, especially when it comes to their complaints regarding Ken Holland and the recent direction of the franchise. And I respect that. But I don't think it's necessary here. I liked what Devellano said more than I liked what Holland said, because even though it's pretty clear that they're on the same page re: the rebuild/the state of the Wings, I've grown tired of Holland dealing in Hollandisms when he speaks to the media and addresses concerns that fans have. I don't want Holland to "pander." Truthfully, I don't really care what he says, as long as his actions are guiding the franchise in the right direction. But I could do without the "Fans say things, and the things they say are stupid. Lemme tell you how it really is" business that he pushes every time he talks to the media.

All I'm saying is that there's no such thing as "Hollandisms". Your interpretation of the comments are colored by who is saying them. 

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Just now, Buppy said:

"Tanking for a high pick" and "Building a contending roster" are not synonymous phrases. Real experts - you know, people who actually know things about hockey - understand that. Conversely, trying to make the playoffs doesn't mean ignoring the future. You're creating a false dichotomy. 

Do you think any parts of the current team are worth keeping? Do we have anything that can be part of a contending roster? If yes, then you have to acknowledge that we have been building. 

And again, Chris Ilitch has been Holland's boss since 2010. Stop acting like it's something new.

All I'm saying is that there's no such thing as "Hollandisms". Your interpretation of the comments are colored by who is saying them. 

First off, Chris Ilitch is now the boss before it was Mr. I even if it's a family business it's still a huge difference because now Chris has the final word. So while technically it may not be new in reality it is new, Chris can run things however he likes it. I just hope he is like his father

What the Wings have are a few secondary players who will be needed to support elite talent now the 1 million dollar question how do you get elite talent, well everyone knows the answer. Some just can't accept it no matter what.

 

[kliq 3,755]

45 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Holland's admitted that he wanted to keep the streak going.  Devellano admitted that was what they were doing.  This isn't speculation, this is what the team said they were doing.

I think you misunderstood my comments, I was not saying they did not care about the streak, you are right about that. I think they were trying to do both (cup and streak) and just failed.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

21 minutes ago, kliq said:

I think you misunderstood my comments, I was not saying they did not care about the streak, you are right about that. I think they were trying to do both (cup and streak) and just failed.

If they believed that what they've been doing the last 3 years was going to lead to a Cup then they've lost their minds.  Aging stars, no top D, signing average players, that doesn't get you a Cup.

[kliq 3,755]

Just now, DickieDunn said:

If they believed that what they've been doing the last 3 years was going to lead to a Cup then they've lost their minds.  Aging stars, no top D, signing average players, that doesn't get you a Cup.

I feel like we are just going in circles, my point was that they were trying to do what they did between 2002 and 2008. If the kids became superstars like last time it would have worked, it didnt. 

[joshy207 156]

Of course, rebuilds are no guarantee.  Having the best roster in the league is no guarantee either.  How many times did the Wings flame out in the first or second round with their All-Star rosters?  How many other teams have done the same?  Only one in thirty teams can win the Cup every year.  The goal is to be competitive enough to have a legitimate chance.  Luck and health are obviously needed as well, but those are beyond anyone's control.

I think the disconnect between Wings' management and a large portion of the fan base is this:  KH & Co. felt they were close enough to being contenders that one or two additions could put them right in the hunt.  Many of us fans don't agree.

There are pieces to build with, for sure.  The problem is, there are too many players being forced to play roles above their capabilities.  DeKeyser should not be a top-pairing defenseman.  He'd be a good #4.   Ericsson should not be anything more than a #6.   Kronwall shouldn't be on the PP anymore, at least not regularly.  Abdelkader is not a top-6 forward, and neither is Helm.  Nyquist and Tatar crumbled when the team leaned on them to carry the offense.  Mrazek needs to find consistency at the NHL level, and Howard needs to find consistent health.

Ken Holland knew Datsyuk would not be here this season.  He had to beg him to stay last year.  That said, Holland also knew he had a perfect opportunity to begin to transition his roster.  Instead of swallowing Datsyuk's cap hit and going with a younger roster, he locked up Abdelkader, Helm, and DeKeyser long-term, brought back Miller, and brought in Nielsen, Vanek, and Ott.  All moves pointing to a GM who believed his team was a playoff team... especially the one where he traded the pick that would have netted him a much-needed potential franchise defenseman.  Yet here we sit watching a team with the highest payroll in the league, but only the 25th-highest point total... and the 29th-highest Regulation Win total (16).  Even Arizona has won more games in regulation (17).  Barely above brutal Colorado, who has 14.  THIS.  TEAM.  IS.  NOT.  GOOD.

I've wanted Holland gone for a number of years now.  I don't believe he is willing to make the moves necessary to improve the team in the long term.  The Streak (TM), while very impressive, became a focal point--they have said as much--and, in turn, a hindrance.  I am glad it is out of the way for that reason, but I need the GM to feel the same way and shake up this roster this summer.  Otherwise it ended for nothing.  If you can defend Holland, legitimately, with evidence that he's the right man for the job going forward, I'd love to hear it.

[Buppy 1,720]

2 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

...

Holland's comments about a team never getting good again?  Yeah, if your GM is a moron, keeps drafting the same types of players, and never gets the guys to compliment your top picks, and overpays average players, your team is going to stay bad.  If your GM knows what he's doing, then your team is going to get 2 high end forwards, a #1 D, and acquire quality players to surround them, and give the supporting cast deals that allow you flexibility and not panic at the thought of losing your 3rd line center.  Your team is going to be as good as your GM builds it.  Apparently Holland believes that he'd follow the Oilers model instead of Chicago.

Oilers model? As if they were trying to stay crap for a decade. And comparing them to Chicago, who was also crap for a decade... Obviously you have no idea how Chicago was built, or how any team is or should be built. The main difference between what Chicago did and what Edmonton did is Chicago picked a defenseman in the 2nd round and he turned into Duncan Keith (and funny enough, that was the draft for the one year they squeaked into to playoffs), Edmonton picked a defenseman in the 2nd round and he turned into Jeff Petry. And Toews and Kane are better than Hall and RNH. It wasn't some magic winning formula. It was a lot of luck. 

Of all the pieces contributing to Chicago's cup wins, only 3 of them required missing the playoffs (and Seabrook just barely), 4 if you count trading Ruutu for Ladd. You won't find a good team that doesn't have major pieces that were found outside of high picks. So you very obviously can (and will most likely have to) do a lot of your "building" while also being competitive. We have already built what should be at the very least a good supporting cast, and despite all the bitching about contracts, the reality is we have plenty of flexibility.

Eventually, you'll probably need a high pick or two. The catch is you never know if that top pick will be Hall or if it will be Kane. In reality, almost everyone hits a few posts before sniping one in the top corner. Getting a high pick is nice; a reason for optimism. But at the same time a cause to be worried. Could get a top 3 pick this year, and/or next year, and have neither end up any better than Larkin.

 

2 hours ago, frankgrimes said:

First off, Chris Ilitch is now the boss before it was Mr. I even if it's a family business it's still a huge difference because now Chris has the final word. So while technically it may not be new in reality it is new, Chris can run things however he likes it. I just hope he is like his father

What the Wings have are a few secondary players who will be needed to support elite talent now the 1 million dollar question how do you get elite talent, well everyone knows the answer. Some just can't accept it no matter what.

First off, Ilitch Holdings is a multi-billion dollar corporation. There's no such thing as a final word. There are checks on everyone. Even Ilitch could be fired. And multi-billion dollar corporations don't make someone President and CEO if it's a hollow title. So again, Chris has been Holland's boss since 2010. 

As for elite talent, sure. We all know how to get it. Just look at the top players on all the cup teams in the cap era. All of them are either high 1st round picks, or mid/low 1st round picks, or 2nd/3rd round picks, or later picks, or trade acquisitions, or UFA signings. Every one of them.

 

[HadThomasVokounOnFortSt 878]

6 hours ago, frankgrimes said:

First off, Chris Ilitch is now the boss before it was Mr. I even if it's a family business it's still a huge difference because now Chris has the final word. So while technically it may not be new in reality it is new, Chris can run things however he likes it. I just hope he is like his father

 

Wasn't Chris running it for awhile now already? Could've sworn someone said that but maybe not.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

22 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Holland's admitted that he wanted to keep the streak going.  Devellano admitted that was what they were doing.  This isn't speculation, this is what the team said they were doing.

WTF does that even mean?  Draft players to keep the streak going?

And no, when you're building a contender, you don't give Luke F-ing Glendening almost 2 million a year for 4 years, or an older 2nd/3rd line center like Nielsen a 6 year deal for that much money.  Those moves are designed to "just get in."

Lol you asked what Holland has done to go for a championship, and I gave you an answer. Are you dissatified with his draft choices as well?

[DickieDunn 2,571]

They haven't been good, no.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

53 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

They haven't been good, no.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk
 

Probably picked guys he thought would just keep the streak alive.