Targets for the Wings

[LeftWinger 4,961]

Marion Hossa.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Marion Hossa.

Johan Franzen

[LeftWinger 4,961]

12 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Johan Franzen

"Playoff Franzen"

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

11 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

"Playoff Franzen"

"Concussion Franzen"

[kickazz 5,459]

No.

[Dabura 12,207]

On 6/10/2017 at 9:30 PM, krsmith17 said:

In saying that, I wouldn't give up our 9th overall for him, but I would inquire. Sakic probably wouldn't trade with us unless it's an offer he can't refuse, and that I wouldn't be willing to do. The most I'd offer up would be a Sheahan or Ouellet, and / or a prospect like Saarijarvi or Hronek, and or a pick or two (not a 1st).

I dunno, smithbro. Why not make a genuinely competitive offer? At the very least, let Sakic (and other GMs) know that you're "open to ideas" and willing to have a discussion about Duchene and/or other players of interest. I don't think the Wings and Avs are realistic trade partners at this time, and I don't want Holland to chase leads and make trades just for the sake of chasing leads and making trades. But if the goal is to avoid a long rebuild and get back to being a contender within the next four years, we should be on the lookout for potential stepping stones, i.e. players that could, realistically, move us forward in a big way.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

I dunno, smithbro. Why not make a genuinely competitive offer? At the very least, let Sakic (and other GMs) know that you're "open to ideas" and willing to have a discussion about Duchene and/or other players of interest. I don't think the Wings and Avs are realistic trade partners at this time, and I don't want Holland to chase leads and make trades just for the sake of chasing leads and making trades. But if the goal is to avoid a long rebuild and get back to being a contender within the next four years, we should be on the lookout for potential stepping stones, i.e. players that could, realistically, move us forward in a big way.

I agree, but what would you be willing to offer for Duchene? I think it would take our 1st, plus a few other big pieces, and I'm just not sure I'd be willing to trade away what I think it would take to get him here. Also, the main thing the Avs are looking for is defense, something we don't really have to offer...

[LeftWinger 4,961]

Well, if Yandle waives his NMC, I could see Colorado being interested....

[xtrememachine1 795]

On 6/9/2017 at 8:10 PM, DickieDunn said:

Did you forget Holland is afraid to lose in a trade so he doesn't make them except at the deadline?

 

Well if Holland's free agent signings are any indication of where his head is, I think NOT making trades is a good thing.  

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I agree, but what would you be willing to offer for Duchene? I think it would take our 1st, plus a few other big pieces, and I'm just not sure I'd be willing to trade away what I think it would take to get him here. Also, the main thing the Avs are looking for is defense, something we don't really have to offer...

Like Dabs said, I don't think we're a likely dancing partner. I think it will take a 1st and a D-man, maybe a bit less, but we just don't have that D-man. Ducks have Vatanen to trade, NYI has de Haan, Minny has Brodin or Dumba, etc. we don't have that piece unfortunately.

[krsmith17 7,191]

6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Like Dabs said, I don't think we're a likely dancing partner. I think it will take a 1st and a D-man, maybe a bit less, but we just don't have that D-man. Ducks have Vatanen to trade, NYI has de Haan, Minny has Brodin or Dumba, etc. we don't have that piece unfortunately.

That's why I suggested some form of package a few posts back. I don't think it would be enough though. We don't have the pieces they'd be looking for, and I doubt they'd trade him for anything less than a first plus top 4 defenseman.

[brett 1,029]

 i would still take keith yandle. i know at one point everyone on here wanted him. ill take anyone who can move the puck crisply out of the zone

i would take any new faces on defense honestly. CDH dumba brodin fowler yandle trouba

we have the pieces we just dont want to part with them. i would trade anyone not named larkin AA and mantha and our #1 pick.

teams had interest in Helm. i have to imagine tatar and nyquist are worth something. but im willing to trade them and have 2-1 games instead of 5-6 games

Edited June 12, 2017 by brett

[Dabura 12,207]

19 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I think it would take our 1st, plus a few other big pieces, and I'm just not sure I'd be willing to trade away what I think it would take to get him here. Also, the main thing the Avs are looking for is defense, something we don't really have to offer...

17 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think it will take a 1st and a D-man, maybe a bit less, but we just don't have that D-man. Ducks have Vatanen to trade, NYI has de Haan, Minny has Brodin or Dumba, etc. we don't have that piece unfortunately.

17 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

We don't have the pieces they'd be looking for, and I doubt they'd trade him for anything less than a first plus top 4 defenseman.

The Red Wings finished the 2016-17 season with 79 points (33-36-13) and a -37 goal differential (207 - 244). That is bad.

The Avalanche finished the 2016-17 season with 48 points (22-56-4) and a -112 goal differential (166 - 278). That is so impossibly bad it's actually kind of impressive.

People are saying the Avs want a defenseman. And that's probably true. And they'll probably get a defenseman. But I don't believe it has to be a defenseman. I believe Sakic simply put it out there that he would, ideally, like to get a defenseman for Duchene.

The Avs have serious problems that are much bigger than "Tyson Barrie and Erik Johnson are not an ideal top two" -- and now they're going to trade a 26-year-old borderline 1C in Matt Duchene. If I'm an Avs fan, I would not be happy with de Haan/Vatanen + mid/late 1st. If we offer something like 1st/2nd + Tatar/Nyquist + Ouellet/Saarijarvi and the Avs reject it because we're not offering a Sami Vatanen (who, at this point, is a third-pairing power play specialist)...they can get bent.

All of this is probably moot, though. My Monopoly money's on Duchene-for-Hamonic.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I'd be okay with that sort of package if it's our 2nd round pick. I wouldn't want to trade our 9th overall pick plus those pieces for Duchene though. I'd trade our 2nd, Tatar and Saarijarvi in a heartbeat. I just don't think that would be enough to get it done...

[Dabura 12,207]

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I'd be okay with that sort of package if it's our 2nd round pick. I wouldn't want to trade our 9th overall pick plus those pieces for Duchene though. I'd trade our 2nd, Tatar and Saarijarvi in a heartbeat. I just don't think that would be enough to get it done...

I hear ya.

That package might not be enough to get it done, but I think it gets us within striking distance. Unless the Avs are hellbent on getting a defenseman (if only for the sake of getting a defenseman and being able to say, "Look! We got a defenseman! Now we're cooking with gas! #ThePlan"), I think 9th overall + Tatar + Saarijarvi would be enough to get it done. Would I pay that price? I'd seriously consider it. It's probably an "overpayment," but I'm that high on Duchene and I'm that concerned about what our center depth chart is going to look like in a couple of years.

We're always being told that players like Duchene "just aren't available." Well, Duchene's available, and Bob McKenzie says he WILL be traded this summer. To which Helene St. James would say, "They want a high-end defenseman. We don't have one of those. Nothing we can do. Vote Holland-Martin 2020." To which I would say every team wants to acquire That Defenseman at a reasonable price and no one wants to sell That Defenseman for a reasonable price. Point being, I suspect the Avs are being offered mostly "pretty good" defensemen and few, if any, star defensemen.

When it becomes clear that he isn't getting a Roman Josi (partly because Duchene only has two years left on his current deal), Sakic will probably give all of his options careful consideration and settle for the pound-for-pound best offer. It'll probably be a defenseman, but I believe the Wings can be in the mix if they want to be in the mix and I believe they can get Duchene if they're willing to "overpay".

Personally, I feel my hypothetical steep price would be worth it, but that's just my opinion. And, of course, my opinions change all the time.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

On 6/10/2017 at 1:11 PM, DickieDunn said:

He's consistently been a 55-ish point a year player the last few years.  That's 2nd line production.  He's also coming off his worst year since 11-12 when he only played 58 games.  The only way a team would trade a first for that is if they thought he could break out in a bigger role.  GMs place a lot of value on first rounders, even the later ones where the average player taken at that spot is nothing special.

Duchene is better than a 55 point player... Don't let the Avs being trash fool you.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

I hear ya.

That package might not be enough to get it done, but I think it gets us within striking distance. Unless the Avs are hellbent on getting a defenseman (if only for the sake of getting a defenseman and being able to say, "Look! We got a defenseman! Now we're cooking with gas! #ThePlan"), I think 9th overall + Tatar + Saarijarvi would be enough to get it done. Would I pay that price? I'd seriously consider it. It's probably an "overpayment," but I'm that high on Duchene and I'm that concerned about what our center depth chart is going to look like in a couple of years.

We're always being told that players like Duchene "just aren't available." Well, Duchene's available, and Bob McKenzie says he WILL be traded this summer. To which Helene St. James would say, "They want a high-end defenseman. We don't have one of those. Nothing we can do. Vote Holland-Martin 2020." To which I would say every team wants to acquire That Defenseman at a reasonable price and no one wants to sell That Defenseman for a reasonable price. Point being, I suspect the Avs are being offered mostly "pretty good" defensemen and few, if any, star defensemen.

When it becomes clear that he isn't getting a Roman Josi (partly because Duchene only has two years left on his current deal), Sakic will probably give all of his options careful consideration and settle for the pound-for-pound best offer. It'll probably be a defenseman, but I believe the Wings can be in the mix if they want to be in the mix and I believe they can get Duchene if they're willing to "overpay".

Personally, I feel my hypothetical steep price would be worth it, but that's just my opinion. And, of course, my opinions change all the time.

I pretty much agree with everything you're saying, I'm just not sure I'd be comfortable giving up that much in that trade. 2nd round pick, fine, 9th overall, nope. The other thing that you have to consider is that our overpayment would have to be that much more than any other teams' overpayment, if it's true that Sakic doesn't want to make a trade with the Detroit Red Wings... I'm with you though, I love Duchene and he'd be a great addition for us. We need to at least make a reasonable offer for him.

[Buppy 1,720]

45 minutes ago, DatsyukianDekes said:

Duchene is better than a 55 point player... Don't let the Avs being trash fool you.

You're right, he's a 60 point player.

59 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I hear ya.

That package might not be enough to get it done, but I think it gets us within striking distance. Unless the Avs are hellbent on getting a defenseman (if only for the sake of getting a defenseman and being able to say, "Look! We got a defenseman! Now we're cooking with gas! #ThePlan"), I think 9th overall + Tatar + Saarijarvi would be enough to get it done. Would I pay that price? I'd seriously consider it. It's probably an "overpayment," but I'm that high on Duchene and I'm that concerned about what our center depth chart is going to look like in a couple of years.

We're always being told that players like Duchene "just aren't available." Well, Duchene's available, and Bob McKenzie says he WILL be traded this summer. To which Helene St. James would say, "They want a high-end defenseman. We don't have one of those. Nothing we can do. Vote Holland-Martin 2020." To which I would say every team wants to acquire That Defenseman at a reasonable price and no one wants to sell That Defenseman for a reasonable price. Point being, I suspect the Avs are being offered mostly "pretty good" defensemen and few, if any, star defensemen.

When it becomes clear that he isn't getting a Roman Josi (partly because Duchene only has two years left on his current deal), Sakic will probably give all of his options careful consideration and settle for the pound-for-pound best offer. It'll probably be a defenseman, but I believe the Wings can be in the mix if they want to be in the mix and I believe they can get Duchene if they're willing to "overpay".

Personally, I feel my hypothetical steep price would be worth it, but that's just my opinion. And, of course, my opinions change all the time.

No, we aren't told that players like Duchene aren't available. That would be dumb since players like Duchene are traded almost every year. Elite franchise cornerstones are the players that aren't available (though even that does occasionally happen). 

Your package would probably get it done if the Avs can't get a defender they like. But how does it make sense for us? Duchene is a 60 point player. Not much better than Nyquist or Tatar on their own. And to throw in the #9, which could easily turn out better than any of them, plus a good D prospect? Plus he makes an already bad cap situation worse. No thanks. Not even swapping the 1st for our 2nd. 

Change for the sake of change is almost always the wrong move. Unless the Avs are looking to shake things up and are willing to overpay us, then I want no part of Duchene at all. Rather use the assets to try to help our own defense.

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

49 minutes ago, Buppy said:

You're right, he's a 60 point player.

No, we aren't told that players like Duchene aren't available. That would be dumb since players like Duchene are traded almost every year. Elite franchise cornerstones are the players that aren't available (though even that does occasionally happen). 

Your package would probably get it done if the Avs can't get a defender they like. But how does it make sense for us? Duchene is a 60 point player. Not much better than Nyquist or Tatar on their own. And to throw in the #9, which could easily turn out better than any of them, plus a good D prospect? Plus he makes an already bad cap situation worse. No thanks. Not even swapping the 1st for our 2nd. 

Change for the sake of change is almost always the wrong move. Unless the Avs are looking to shake things up and are willing to overpay us, then I want no part of Duchene at all. Rather use the assets to try to help our own defense.

 

Difference of opinion I guess.

Always really liked Matt Duchene. I think he's a 70 pt player on a good team. If he'd be capable of that with us I don't know. I'm not too interested in forwards at the moment, but I do think he's a much better player than Nyquist or Tatar.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Difference of opinion I guess.
Always really liked Matt Duchene. I think he's a 70 pt player on a good team. If he'd be capable of that with us I don't know. I'm not too interested in forwards at the moment, but I do think he's a much better player than Nyquist or Tatar.

Detroit is not a good team.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

27 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

Detroit is not a good team.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk
 

Really? Whoa look we missed the playoffs. I had no idea. 

[Dabura 12,207]

2 hours ago, Buppy said:

No, we aren't told that players like Duchene aren't available. That would be dumb since players like Duchene are traded almost every year. Elite franchise cornerstones are the players that aren't available (though even that does occasionally happen).

Fair enough. But I think you know what I mean. "We'd love to add a real good centerman/defenseman, but those players are real hard to come by. There's no hockey store. You have to draft and develop, that's the surest path to success in the cap era." I don't mean to single out Holland, because every GM says this kind of thing. Because it's largely true.

"And yet you feel we should throw valuable assets at Matt Duchene."

I don't necessarily feel we should, but, in theory, I'd probably be ok with it. Why? Because Zetterberg is old, Nielsen is old, Larkin is unproven, Athanasiou is probably a career winger, and we don't have any high-end center prospects. We might draft a high-end C prospect with the #9 pick and that player might end up being better than Duchene, or we might draft a high-end D prospect with the #9 pick and that player might end up becoming a legit #1 defenseman. Or the player we draft with that pick could be a bust.

Duchene is, at least, a known. At worst, he's a very good 2C. At best, he could become a legitimate 1C. While the Wings haven't been a model of excellence over the past few years, the Avs have been a drunken mess over the past few years, and I do wonder if that hasn't held Duchene back. Also, while the Wings remain good at producing NHL talent, we've produced few truly high-end NHLers over the past decade. Granted, that could be because of our draft positions. But I'm starting to wonder if there isn't more to it than just the lack of top-ten picks. Point being, I don't exactly have the utmost confidence in our drafting and development at this point in time.

I don't feel Duchene is hugely superior to Tatar or Nyquist, but I do feel he's the best of the three. And, crucially, he's a centerman. His cap hit is big, but if we're losing a roster player in the expansion draft and moving Tatar/Nyquist out and maybe making a couple minor housekeeping moves, it wouldn't necessarily be a problem. He only has two years remaning on his contract, so it's not like we'd be chaining ourselves to an albatross.

If Holland wants to actively try to avoid a long rebuild, I say make a pitch for Duchene and/or [your high-end trade target(s) of choice]. I mean, again, I don't believe we should be making moves just for the sake of making moves. But if there are high-end players on the market and we think they could help our cause, we should seriously explore those options and, perhaps, be prepared to take a calculated risk. I have no problem with the notion that we should use Tatar/Nyquist to upgrade our defense, but, personally, I'm just as concerned about our center situation as I am about our D situation. Zetterberg held our team together this season. That's not sustainable.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Dabura

[DickieDunn 2,571]

If they want a D, there are teams that would be willing to make that deal.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

[Dabura 12,207]

9 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

If they want a D, there are teams that would be willing to make that deal.

I don't disagree. I just think it would be foolish of them to limit their options to defensemen.

[Dabura 12,207]

One more point I want to make about Duchene...

19 hours ago, DatsyukianDekes said:

Duchene is better than a 55 point player...

18 hours ago, Buppy said:

You're right, he's a 60 point player.

55-60 points is nothing to sneeze at.

Consider:

• Kyle Turris is the Senators' 1C. This season, Turris put up 55 points in 78 games.
• Derek Stepan is the Rangers' 1C. This season, Stepan put up 55 points in 81 games.
• Ryan Johansen is the Predators' 1C. This season, Johansen put up 61 points in 82 games.
• Mikko Koivu is the Wild's 1C. This season, Koivu put up 58 points in 80 games.
• Eric Staal was arguably the Wild's 1C this season. Staal put up 65 points in 82 games.
• Sean Monahan is the Flames' 1C. This season, Monahan put up 58 points in 82 games.
• Claude Giroux is the Flyers' 1C. This season, Giroux put up 58 points in 82 games.
• Alexander Wennberg is the Blue Jackets' 1C. This season, Wennberg put up 59 points in 80 games.
• Henrik Zetterberg is our best player. This season, Zetterberg put up 68 points in 82 games.

Granted, you could argue that some or most of these players do what they do in a tougher role than the one Duchene is accustomed to. But one could also argue that playing for the Avalanche has held Duchene back.

What I'm saying is Duchene is really good and quite possibly capable of being a legitimate 1C on a playoff team. In the past ten years or so, the Wings' scouting-drafting-development machinery has produced approximately one comparable centerman in Valtteri Filppula, and I think Duchene is better than Filppula ever was. The jury is out on Larkin and Athanasiou.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Dabura