Targets for the Wings

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 minute ago, marcaractac said:

We're not talking about that anymore. We've upgraded to offer sheeting Pettersson AND Hughes. 

I mean, could you really rule out Yzerman doing something this bold? #Yzermad

[marcaractac 3,963]

Just now, krsmith17 said:

Sure. Maybe. The key being this team, this offseason. Not going to happen. 

I'd much rather draft Wright AND Bedard... 

Neither scenario will happen, so enjoy some fantasy banter or just give it up lol

[marcaractac 3,963]

The thread is 'Targets for the Wings'. No rules saying they have to be 100% plausible. 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 minute ago, BarkBurgerman said:

Marc and I will be right over to poop all over it.

You're into that? I hope you have good anti virus software.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

I am very much afraid Ydude is going to have to build a contender without ever sniffing a top 3 pick. 

It's obvious to me that he's planning for this as well. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Neither scenario will happen, so enjoy some fantasy banter or just give it up lol

I'm thoroughly enjoying the fantasy banter...

IF Yzerman were able to pull off a successful offersheet, I think it would be a bad move at this stage of the rebuild. Fortunately, it's not going to happen. IF Yzerman were able to get this team in position to have a shot at a top pick, it would catapult this rebuild into immediate playoff team. Unfortunately, this isn't likely, but at least there's literally no downside if it were to happen.

[marcaractac 3,963]

Just now, krsmith17 said:

I'm thoroughly enjoying the fantasy banter...

IF Yzerman were able to pull off a successful offersheet, I think it would be a bad move at this stage of the rebuild. Fortunately, it's not going to happen. IF Yzerman were able to get this team in position to have a shot at a top pick, it would catapult this rebuild into immediate playoff team. Unfortunately, this isn't likely, but at least there's literally no downside if it were to happen.

I imagine it as giving up two firsts (which I am not convinced at all would be top 10 with Pettersson), to bring in a 21 year old talent who absolutely is a 1st overall pick quality talent. The alternative being having a first two years in a row,  2022 likely being the 5-10 range, the 2023 likely not even being bottom 10 period, to simply have a CHANCE at acquiring a player of his quality. Those are odds I myself would take all day long. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I am very much afraid Ydude is going to have to build a contender without ever sniffing a top 3 pick. 

It's obvious to me that he's planning for this as well. 

What makes this obvious to you? We finished 5th from the bottom this past season. Dead last the season before. 4th from the bottom the year before that. The opportunity was there. Do you think we're that much improved after this offseason (so far)? I don't. I think we'll be a bottom 5ish team again this coming season. I like the moves he's made, but they're still a lot of stop-gap type moves. I think after next season we'll be positioned to start climbing the standings. I think we have one more shot at a lottery pick. Whether we win it or not, we'll see. But we'll likely be in the running.

[marcaractac 3,963]

Just now, BarkBurgerman said:

I think anyone would trade two firsts and more for Pettersson.

If we were Buffalo or Arizona and were destined for bottom 5 for the foreseeable future, I wouldn't. But with what we have? I'm guessing without Pettersson we're 5-10 worst in 2022 and 10-15 worst in 2023. With him, we're fighting for a wildcard spot this season. So yeah, I'd totes do it. Though I get not wanting to, as there is more to factor in than just draft picks (unwritten rule stuff and what not). 

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I imagine it as giving up two firsts (which I am not convinced at all would be top 10 with Pettersson), to bring in a 21 year old talent who absolutely is a 1st overall pick quality talent. The alternative being having a first two years in a row,  2022 likely being the 5-10 range, the 2023 likely not even being bottom 10 period, to simply have a CHANCE at acquiring a player of his quality. Those are odds I myself would take all day long. 

I don't disagree with the value we'd be giving up. Is Pettersson worth $10.25M though? I don't think so. If we can get another top 5 pick next summer, we could potentially get a Pettersson level player, and never have to pay him close to that (relative to percentage of the cap).

If we were to offersheet Pettersson at $10.25M. What is Raymond going to want on his next contract? Or Larkin? or Seider? Or whoever else?... Pettersson is not Matthews, but that massive contract is the reason Marner signed his massive contract (overpaid). There's a trickle down effect. I like that we have our captain, and current best player locked in at $6.1M. Yzerman, of all people is going to understand the importance of key players playing at a bit of a hometown discount. You're not getting that with any offersheet. 

[kipwinger 8,522]

We didn't get a top five pick THIS summer. And Yzerman has improved the team considerably. Why would anybody wager we'd get one next summer when our lottery odds are even worse?

Here's the thing, we're going to have a much better record next year. Partially because we're going to be a better team between getting better personnel and getting healthier. And partially because we're not going to have to play Tampa, Florida, Carolina, and Dallas 8 times each. We'll be back to winning games against Buffalo and Ottawa and the like.

Any plan that revolves around "let's tank for Shane Wright" is simply not going to happen. Nevermind the fact that losing year after year is HORRIBLE for your organization, and we're already seeing the results of that. Why the hell do we think Bertuzzi is desperate to get out of Detroit?

[marcaractac 3,963]

Yzerman needs to spend $10 mil to reach the cap floor. #destiny

 

And before anyone gives me the "WELL ACTUALLY....", yes. I know we have RFAs to sign hat will clearly get us to the floor. 

Edited July 29, 2021 by marcaractac

[krsmith17 7,191]

7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

We didn't get a top five pick THIS summer. And Yzerman has improved the team considerably. Why would anybody wager we'd get one next summer when our lottery odds are even worse?

We would have had a top 5 (5th overall) pick this summer if it weren't for the expansion team. How has Yzerman improved this team "considerably"? I would say he has improved the team "marginally".

Assuming that we will be a better team next season is assuming that Yzerman isn't going to trade away any of our good young players for futures. I would assume at least one or two of those players will be moved at or before the trade deadline.

8 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Here's the thing, we're going to have a much better record next year. Partially because we're going to be a better team between getting better personnel and getting healthier. And partially because we're not going to have to play Tampa, Florida, Carolina, and Dallas 8 times each. We'll be back to winning games against Buffalo and Ottawa and the like.

Staying healthy is a bit of a bold assumption, considering we're consistently one of the highest man games lost to injury teams every season.

Ottawa was better last season and will be better next season than Columbus. For every "bad" team we played last year, there will be a "bad" team that will replace them this season.

15 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Any plan that revolves around "let's tank for Shane Wright" is simply not going to happen. Nevermind the fact that losing year after year is HORRIBLE for your organization, and we're already seeing the results of that. Why the hell do we think Bertuzzi is desperate to get out of Detroit?

It's not Shane Wright or bust, but we should absolutely be in the running for a top 5 pick next season.

What makes you think "Bertuzzi is desperate to get out of Detroit". First I'm hearing of this...

[marcaractac 3,963]

Right off the bat next season, Buffalo, Anaheim, Columbus, Arizona are noticeably worse than the Wings. SJ will continue to suck. Vancouver will probably suck. Calgary might suck. The Habs will regress. Minnesota is certainly a candidate to free fall. Ottawa, despite improvement last year, can very well regress. We don't know what Seattle will be at this point. Nice on the back end, not much to write home about up front. 

That's four teams we'll certainly finish ahead of and 7 others we'll likely be in the same neck of the woods with. Hell even Nashville could regress big time. Or even the Blues. Two more teams on the down swing of things. How fast that happens, only time will tell.

Not to mention we were only as bad as we were last season because the team continued to play with like 6+ players out with COVID, where every other team postponed games which such numbers. Factor out that slump and the Wings were close to a .500 team last year. Now there has been improvement in goal, a much improved defense, and center depth added up front with Suter. I think it's a little silly to expect a bottom 5 finish. 

[F.Michael 4,590]

lil'Bert wanting out of Detroit is probably social media speculation more than anything else...I personally hope he's healthy and signs on for a few seasons.

I mean - his pic just screams blue-collar Detroit...

[kipwinger 8,522]

18 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

We would have had a top 5 (5th overall) pick this summer if it weren't for the expansion team. How has Yzerman improved this team "considerably"? I would say he has improved the team "marginally".

Assuming that we will be a better team next season is assuming that Yzerman isn't going to trade away any of our good young players for futures. I would assume at least one or two of those players will be moved at or before the trade deadline.

Staying healthy is a bit of a bold assumption, considering we're consistently one of the highest man games lost to injury teams every season.

Ottawa was better last season and will be better next season than Columbus. For every "bad" team we played last year, there will be a "bad" team that will replace them this season.

It's not Shane Wright or bust, but we should absolutely be in the running for a top 5 pick next season.

What makes you think "Bertuzzi is desperate to get out of Detroit". First I'm hearing of this...

Yzerman added good player and subtracted bad ones. That's how we're better. Adding Leddy, Nedjelkovic, Seider, Veleno, Oesterle, and Suter and subtracting Helm, Glendening, Svech, Djoos, Nemeth and Merrill is a pretty big net positive. I shouldn't have to explain why.

We'll be healthier because half our team won't have COVID for the first three weeks of the season. It's not rocket science.

The point is that Carolina, Tampa, and Florida were three of the top five teams in the league last year and we played them 24 times out of 56 total games. In other words, roughly 50% of our games were against three of the top five teams in the league. Irrespective of what our division looks like next year we don't be playing top teams in that percentage of our total games. Again, not rocket science.

Bertuzzi took the team to arbitration a year ago and hasn't had any contract talks at all this year. Pretty clear he wants out of Detroit. You're being intentionally obtuse if you think otherwise.

 

So, in conclusion, we're not getting a top five pick next year because we'll be better and tanking at this point does more harm than good.

Edited July 29, 2021 by kipwinger

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

Bertuzzi took the team to arbitration a year ago and hasn't had any contract talks at all this year. Pretty clear he wants out of Detroit. You're being intentionally obtuse if you think otherwise.

Yeah Bert is as good as gone. And the sooner the better, as the return from a team that can extend him would be much higher than the one year arbitration deal leading him to UFA we're headed to. Let's trade him while a team can lock him up for all his prime years instead of being forced to move him as a rental later. 

[marcaractac 3,963]

7 minutes ago, BarkBurgerman said:

You:

Leddy was a bad trade: It's not
Yzerman should sign aging vets: He doesn't
Yzerman shouldn't draft a goalie in the first round: He does
This team is getting a top5 pick next year: It's not

Your confidence despite consistently being wrong is inspiring

He even took the right one

[krsmith17 7,191]

18 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Yzerman added good player and subtracted bad ones. That's how we're better. Adding Leddy, Nedjelkovic, Seider, Veleno, Oesterle, and Suter and subtracting Helm, Glendening, Svech, Djoos, Nemeth and Merrill is a pretty big net positive. I shouldn't have to explain why.

So what about potentially subtracting good players while adding futures? Are we still better without Vrana and Bertuzzi? Not to say both will be moved, but there's a strong chance one or both will be moved before the trade deadline.

19 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

We'll be healthier because half our team won't have COVID for the first three weeks of the season. It's not rocket science.

Ok. So we'll be healthier (no injuries) this season because there's no COVID concerns? Got it.

20 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

The point is that Carolina, Tampa, and Florida were three of the top five teams in the league last year and we played them 24 times out of 56 total games. In other words, roughly 50% of our games were against three of the top five teams in the league. Irrespective of what our division looks like next year we don't be playing top teams in that percentage of our total games. Again, not rocket science.

Have you considered that maybe playing Detroit and Columbus every night played a role in them being three of the top five teams in the league last season? No, we won't be playing top teams. Except that we'll still be in a division with Tampa, Florida (two of those top three teams) and Toronto (who has been comparable to Carolina the past several seasons). Yeah, the new division should be a cakewalk... 

28 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Bertuzzi took the team to arbitration a year ago and hasn't had any contract talks at all this year. Pretty clear he wants out of Detroit. You're being intentionally obtuse if you think otherwise.

A player filing for arbitration doesn't mean they want out. However, I'm sure Bertuzzi sees the writing on the wall after Athanasiou and Mantha being dealt the past two deadlines.

29 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

So, in conclusion, we're not getting a top five pick next year because we'll be better and tanking at this point does more harm than good.

I wish I too could see into the future... Must be nice.

[kipwinger 8,522]

2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

So what about potentially subtracting good players while adding futures? Are we still better without Vrana and Bertuzzi? Not to say both will be moved, but there's a strong chance one or both will be moved before the trade deadline.

Ok. So we'll be healthier (no injuries) this season because there's no COVID concerns? Got it.

Have you considered that maybe playing Detroit and Columbus every night played a role in them being three of the top five teams in the league last season? No, we won't be playing top teams. Except that we'll still be in a division with Tampa, Florida (two of those top three teams) and Toronto (who has been comparable to Carolina the past several seasons). Yeah, the new division should be a cakewalk... 

A player filing for arbitration doesn't mean they want out. However, I'm sure Bertuzzi sees the writing on the wall after Athanasiou and Mantha being dealt the past two deadlines.

I wish I too could see into the future... Must be nice.

I don't know why I bother with you. Yzerman traded Mantha for a roster player and picks. Traded a 3rd and Bernier for a roster player. Traded and 2nd and Panik for a roster player. Signed 3 roster players this offseason, but you think he's going to go full tank and trade Bertuzzi (and maybe Vrana) for futures? Good thinking.

I didn't say we'd have "no injuries". That's idiotic. I said we'd be healthier. And we will. Because in addition to regular injuries (which happen to every team every year), last year  we had to contend with a f*cking virus that gutted our team for weeks on end. That won't be the case this year.

For the 3rd time, it's not that good teams won't be in our division. It's that they'll account for a smaller percentage of the total number of games we play because A) we'll play more games (82 instead of 56), B) we'll only play division teams 6 times instead of 8, and C) Because we'll play bad teams outside of our division twice each. Again, this doesn't require too much intelligence.

Nobody said arbitration alone account for him wanting out. Arbitration last year PLUS no contract talks this off season indicates he wants to leave. Guys who want to play with a team tend to have contract negotiations with that team in the offseason when they're free agents. It's not too hard to understand.

 

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I don't know why I bother with you. Yzerman traded Mantha for a roster player and picks. Traded a 3rd and Bernier for a roster player. Traded and 2nd and Panik for a roster player. Signed 3 roster players this offseason, but you think he's going to go full tank and trade Bertuzzi (and maybe Vrana) for futures? Good thinking.

No, I don't think he'll "full tank" in any trade, but there is a possibility that he trades one or both in a similar trade to the Tatar / Nyquist trades. You don't think there's a reality where Yzerman could trade one or both for a high end prospect and / or pick(s)?

13 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I didn't say we'd have "no injuries". That's idiotic. I said we'd be healthier. And we will. Because in addition to regular injuries (which happen to every team every year), last year  we had to contend with a f*cking virus that gutted our team for weeks on end. That won't be the case this year.

We've consistently been one of the most injured teams every year, pandemic or not. You're assuming for whatever reason this year will be different. That's what's "idiotic"...

16 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

For the 3rd time, it's not that good teams won't be in our division. It's that they'll account for a smaller percentage of the total number of games we play because A) we'll play more games (82 instead of 56)

What does playing more games have to do with anything? We'll get more wins / points because we'll be playing 82 games, rather than 56. That doesn't mean we'll be higher in the standings... lol

20 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

B) we'll only play division teams 6 times instead of 8

So?

21 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

C) Because we'll play bad teams outside of our division twice each.

And we won't play good teams outside of our division twice each?

22 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Again, this doesn't require too much intelligence.

You keep talking about "rocket science" and "intelligence", but the points you're attempting to make are completely absurd...

23 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Nobody said arbitration alone account for him wanting out. Arbitration last year PLUS no contract talks this off season indicates he wants to leave. Guys who want to play with a team tend to have contract negotiations with that team in the offseason when they're free agents. It's not too hard to understand.

Or maybe Bertuzzi is anxious to sign a contract, but Yzerman has been extremely busy with the expansion draft, entry draft, free agency, etc. Have you heard of contract talks between Yzerman and Vrana? What about Hronek? I'm sure they want out too right?

[krsmith17 7,191]

19 minutes ago, BarkBurgerman said:

@krsmith17 I'm convinced is the ultimate troll.

You have to be able to read between the lines with a GM's moves.

Yzerman comes in and signs nobodies for a few years. The between the lines is clear. We're tanking.

This year is an obvious 180 from that. Clearly trying to build up a competitive team now. Putting young and helpful pieces in place. The wallowing in the mud is over, we're standing up now. Long way to go and more than a few players will come and go, but this is the beginning of the thing.

What moves so far this off-season have you convinced he's ready to turn the corner? He's made very similar moves so far this off-season as he did last off-season. I loved last off season. You hated it. I love this off-season so far, and apparently you do too. What's the difference? Leddy? That's the only significant upgrade from the outside. I love the Nedeljkovic trade, but I don't see him being a significant upgrade over Bernier (if at all). Suter is a younger, slightly better version of Namestnikov. Oesterle is an older, slightly better version of Merrill. He re-signed Gagner and Staal. Yzerman is still very much committed to this rebuild and next year's draft. He signed more stop-gaps. Where is this 180 you speak of?

[marcaractac 3,963]

11 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

No, I don't think he'll "full tank" in any trade, but there is a possibility that he trades one or both in a similar trade to the Tatar / Nyquist trades. You don't think there's a reality where Yzerman could trade one or both for a high end prospect and / or pick(s)?

Or maybe Bertuzzi is anxious to sign a contract, but Yzerman has been extremely busy with the expansion draft, entry draft, free agency, etc. Have you heard of contract talks between Yzerman and Vrana? What about Hronek? I'm sure they want out too right?

On the Mantha trade, Yzerman was pretty set on getting a roster player back (Vrana). No reason to believe that won't continue to be his standard in these trades. He wants certainty in his returns, clearly. Prospects and picks don't give you any of that.

As for Bert... Yyes, Yzerman is too busy to sign Bert, but made time for Ras and Pickard. We may not have heard about contract talks with Vrana and Hronek. But we also didn't hear that there weren't any, either. There is precedent with the Bertuzzi thing. Nobody can deny that. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

On the Mantha trade, Yzerman was pretty set on getting a roster player back (Vrana). No reason to believe that won't continue to be his standard in these trades. He wants certainty in his returns, clearly. Prospects and picks don't give you any of that.

As for Bert... Yyes, Yzerman is too busy to sign Bert, but made time for Ras and Pickard. We may not have heard about contract talks with Vrana and Hronek. But we also didn't hear that there weren't any, either. There is precedent with the Bertuzzi thing. Nobody can deny that. 

Sure, it helps when there's a roster player coming back, but I don't think it's a requirement for Yzerman. If a team is offering up a high end prospect and pick(s), I think he'd be all over it.

You think signing a high(er) profile player like Bertuzzi requires the same leg work as a bridge deal for Rasmussen or an extension for Pickard? Not even close. It's very common for a lot of the smaller deals to get done early in the summer, and some of the bigger deals to happen as late as August / September, right before training camp...

[kipwinger 8,522]

If I know anything about rebuilding teams it's that they pretty much always trade 2nd round picks for 30 year old left handed defensemen on expiring contracts. Clearly nothing has changed for Yzerman and co.

Edited July 29, 2021 by kipwinger