Griffins Calder Cup Playoffs Thread

[kipwinger 8,524]

Frk with a goal and an assist so far tonight.  He, Svech, and Nosek should all be up next year. 

3rd line for the Red Wings: Frk-Neilsen-Svech

4th line: Helm-Nosek-Abby

[kickazz 5,459]

21 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Frk with a goal and an assist so far tonight.  He, Svech, and Nosek should all be up next year. 

3rd line for the Red Wings: Frk-Neilsen-Svech

4th line: Helm-Nosek-Abby

If Nielsen on 3rd line, what about 2nd line? Assuming Z continues to center line 1 with Mantha and Tatar or Nyquist 

Edited June 4, 2017 by kickazz

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 minute ago, kickazz said:

If Nielsen on 3rd line, what about 2nd line? Assuming Z continues to center line 1 with Mantha and Tatar or Nyquist 

With no changes aside from Sheahan or Helm being taken in the expansion draft, I'd go with

Nyquist-Z-Mantha

Tatar-Larkin-AA. 

Frk-Neilsen-Svech

Helm/Sheahan-Nosek-Abby

 

Annnnd another point for Frk. 

[joesuffP 1,746]

Larkin has to play center next season he's lowkey a beast on face offs and has done well with other teams playing down the middle

[joesuffP 1,746]

edit : wrong thread

Edited June 4, 2017 by joesuffP

[TLGTrico 625]

Griffins take game 2 by a score of 6-5 in double OT.

Frk, Street x2, Svechnikov, Nosek, and Bertuzzi are the goal scorers.

[Hairy Lime 234]

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

18 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Frk with a goal and an assist so far tonight.  He, Svech, and Nosek should all be up next year. 

3rd line for the Red Wings: Frk-Neilsen-Svech

4th line: Helm-Nosek-Abby

The thing I like about Frk other than his cannon of a (right handed) shot, is that he plays with a bit of an edge. He's a fiesty son of a b****, and can hit pretty hard. Solid frame at 6'1", 200lbs. I still think he can be a solid 3rd line power-play trigger man in the NHL. I just hope we don't lose him to waivers... again.

[kipwinger 8,524]

It's not even that I like Frk so much as I like skill players playing in positions that require skill.  I think a 3rd line with Frk and Svech on the wings scores more than a 3rd line with Abby and Sheahan/Helm on the wings.  And I think a 4th line with Nosek, Abby, and Helm/Sheahan scores more than a 4th line with Glendening, Miller and Ott (or whomever).  For me it's about relative gains.  I just happen to be talking about Frk and Svech because they're the two most skilled guys we have who aren't playing in Detroit yet.

 

[Buppy 1,720]

18 hours ago, kipwinger said:

It's not even that I like Frk so much as I like skill players playing in positions that require skill.  I think a 3rd line with Frk and Svech on the wings scores more than a 3rd line with Abby and Sheahan/Helm on the wings.  And I think a 4th line with Nosek, Abby, and Helm/Sheahan scores more than a 4th line with Glendening, Miller and Ott (or whomever).  For me it's about relative gains.  I just happen to be talking about Frk and Svech because they're the two most skilled guys we have who aren't playing in Detroit yet.

Is Frk really a skill player though, or do we just think that because so far we've only seen his skill relative to AHL players? Helm was a good scorer in juniors and did far better in the AHL than Frk did at the same age. Who knows how he might have looked if he had stayed another two years. Abby scored at a similar rate to even Frk's good seasons. Even Miller was a solid AHL scorer. 

I don't particularly object to giving Frk a shot, but it's a bit of stretch to expect him to do much of anything. I would expect Abby, Helm, and Sheahan to all produce better than Frk given the same linemates. And oddly enough, I wouldn't expect Abby or Sheahan (both being more complimentary players) to produce much from the 4th line (and their history seems to support this). Helm maybe, depending on how his body holds up. Frk may actually be able to produce better than either in that role. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

Frk is a very skilled hockey player, and to say otherwise is just ignorant. Whether that skill that has made him so successful at the AHL level will translate to the NHL is yet to be determined. If put in the right situation, I think Frk can be a very good 3rd line winger at the NHL level. If he's thrown on a line with Sheahan and Abdelkader, I don't think he will do a whole lot, but if he's put on a line with Nielsen and Svechnikov (guys that can distribute the puck) like kip suggested, I think he'd be able to put up points. If he's used properly he could be a good fit on a team that lacks quality shooters. I hope he's given a legit shot in training camp...

[Buppy 1,720]

5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Frk is a very skilled hockey player, and to say otherwise is just ignorant. Whether that skill that has made him so successful at the AHL level will translate to the NHL is yet to be determined. If put in the right situation, I think Frk can be a very good 3rd line winger at the NHL level. If he's thrown on a line with Sheahan and Abdelkader, I don't think he will do a whole lot, but if he's put on a line with Nielsen and Svechnikov (guys that can distribute the puck) like kip suggested, I think he'd be able to put up points. If he's used properly he could be a good fit on a team that lacks quality shooters. I hope he's given a legit shot in training camp...

Whether or not that skill will translate is exactly what I mean. No doubt he's a skilled AHL player, but that doesn't make him a skilled NHL player. 

Maybe he'd be productive in the right situation, maybe not. We already know Abby, and to a slightly lesser extent Helm and Sheahan,can be. But everyone wants to ignore that, because new things I guess.

Like I said, I don't object to giving him a shot. I just don't expect him to be better than anyone. Probably not a whole lot of examples of decent NHL scorers that took 3 years to become decent in the AHL.

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, Buppy said:

Whether or not that skill will translate is exactly what I mean. No doubt he's a skilled AHL player, but that doesn't make him a skilled NHL player. 

Maybe he'd be productive in the right situation, maybe not. We already know Abby, and to a slightly lesser extent Helm and Sheahan,can be. But everyone wants to ignore that, because new things I guess.

Like I said, I don't object to giving him a shot. I just don't expect him to be better than anyone. Probably not a whole lot of examples of decent NHL scorers that took 3 years to become decent in the AHL.

Maybe that is what you meant, but you did ask "is Frk really a skill player"... and the answer to that is "Yes". I never said it would definitely translate, but there's no reason to believe a 23 year old, top scorer at the AHL level won't at least be reasonably productive as 3rd line winger at the NHL level. I'm not saying he would light the league on fire, but I do think he could potentially put up 20-30 points, which is what we would expect from any of Abdelkader, Helm or Sheahan in a similar role. I also think that a 4th line of the three aforementioned would be very good. Similar to the old grind line, fully capable of shutting down top lines, while actually producing some offense.

[Buppy 1,720]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Maybe that is what you meant, but you did ask "is Frk really a skill player"... and the answer to that is "Yes". I never said it would definitely translate, but there's no reason to believe a 23 year old, top scorer at the AHL level won't at least be reasonably productive as 3rd line winger at the NHL level. I'm not saying he would light the league on fire, but I do think he could potentially put up 20-30 points, which is what we would expect from any of Abdelkader, Helm or Sheahan in a similar role. I also think that a 4th line of the three aforementioned would be very good. Similar to the old grind line, fully capable of shutting down top lines, while actually producing some offense.

Yeah, and I stand by it. If his skill doesn't translate, can we call him a "skill player"? Is he really any more skilled than Abby or Sheahan?Maybe he has a better shot, but there's more to skill than just that. 

But fine. He's a skill player. In the sense that his game is focused on his skill rather than anything else. The main point of my post is that there isn't any good reason to think Frk would produce better than Abby, Helm, or Sheahan; as Kip suggested. Skill player or not, he has to actually be good. The evidence thus far is saying he probably isn't going to be.

And the evidence is against your 4th line as well. Not only would it be a tremendous waste of cap space, but given what we've seen of Abby and Sheahan when they have played that 4th-line shut-down role, they won't score any more than anyone else and they aren't even that great defensively either. Helm I'd agree, if his speed and tenacity can hold up against age and injury. But Abby and Sheahan need good players to play off of in order to be effective. If we can't put them in those spots, we should do everything we can to get rid of them.

On the other hand, I think if we were to forego the whole 4th-line shut-down role, and instead go with a sheltered, offensively-focused line, it would be and even better opportunity for someone like Frk and even Svech at this stage of his development. This is just a theory though, with no supporting evidence. 

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Maybe that is what you meant, but you did ask "is Frk really a skill player"... and the answer to that is "Yes". I never said it would definitely translate, but there's no reason to believe a 23 year old, top scorer at the AHL level won't at least be reasonably productive as 3rd line winger at the NHL level. I'm not saying he would light the league on fire, but I do think he could potentially put up 20-30 points, which is what we would expect from any of Abdelkader, Helm or Sheahan in a similar role. I also think that a 4th line of the three aforementioned would be very good. Similar to the old grind line, fully capable of shutting down top lines, while actually producing some offense.

I'd like to be optimistic on Frk, but there are plenty of examples of top scorers at the AHL level who couldn't produce much of anything in the NHL. 

For instance, former Griffin, Andy Miele seems to be at the top of the league for most of his 6 AHL years, but only managed 2 assists in his 15 games over 3 years of NHL call ups with the coyotes.

Zack Boychuk was 2nd in AHL scoring 12-13 and high numbers in the years before that, but has a grand total of 30 pts in 127 NHL games.

Alexandre Giroux, Jeff Taffe, are other examples

With that said, I'm still in for giving Frk a chance next year for some games.  I'd be more optimistic if he had consistently put up big numbers throughout his AHL time, but his first 2 year were pretty rough.

Edited June 6, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

I think Frk falls into the same category as Jurco, Pulkkinen, Nestrasil unfortunately.

[krsmith17 7,191]

All I'm saying, and I'm sure the same goes for kip, is give him the opportunity in that role and see what he can do with it. Nowhere did I say that AHL success automatically translates to the NHL. Sure, there are many examples of players that had great numbers in the American League that could never hack it in the NHL, but you know what a high percentage of those players have in common? They lack size. Miele, Boychuk, Pulkkinen all lack size, and I believe was a big reason none of them played significant time in the NHL. And for the same reason, Street, Lorito and Criscuolo likely won't ever play significant time in the NHL either. The difference is, Frk has NHL size and uses his size well. I'm not gushing over Frk by any means, all I'm saying is that IF he could become a decent 3rd line winger and a threat on our power-play that lacks right handed shooters, he could be a solid addition to this squad. Give the kid his shot.

[Buppy 1,720]

I don't think anyone is arguing against giving him a shot. (Maybe arguing exactly what "a shot" should entail.) I was just questioning Kip's theory that Frk would be better than Abby in a scoring role. 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

How many chances should Frk get before admitting the obvious?

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

4 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

How many chances should Frk get before admitting the obvious?

Well he was never given an NHL game with the Wings and only played 2 with the Hurricanes so it isn't like he had a lot of chances.

[Buppy 1,720]

1 hour ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

Well he was never given an NHL game with the Wings and only played 2 with the Hurricanes so it isn't like he had a lot of chances.

Depends how you look at it. He's also had 4 years to earn a call-up.

[Dabura 12,207]

5 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

How many chances should Frk get before admitting the obvious?

You're saying we should...stick a frk in him?

[DickieDunn 2,571]

15 minutes ago, Dabura said:

You're saying we should...stick a frk in him?

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 hours ago, Buppy said:

Depends how you look at it. He's also had 4 years to earn a call-up.

Frk is 23 (24 this coming season). There are many players that don't make their mark in the league until their Frk's age or even later. Detroit aren't really a team known to move their prospects along quickly either... Jensen finally got the call this year at the tender age of 26. DeKeyser was a highly sought after free agent that was never drafted and never played a game pro at the same age Frk is now. Frederick Gaudreau is 24, just made his debut this season, and is giving the Preds an added scoring punch in the playoffs. Ryan Dzingel is another example. Zach Hyman, and how about the great Luke Glendebing... I'm sure there are many other examples, but those are just a few off the top of my head. I agree though that the likelihood of Frk having a major impact isn't great, I'd just like to see what he can do if given the opportunity. He has to know that it's make or break this coming season for him.

[kipwinger 8,524]

On 6/6/2017 at 2:07 AM, Buppy said:

Is Frk really a skill player though, or do we just think that because so far we've only seen his skill relative to AHL players? Helm was a good scorer in juniors and did far better in the AHL than Frk did at the same age. Who knows how he might have looked if he had stayed another two years. Abby scored at a similar rate to even Frk's good seasons. Even Miller was a solid AHL scorer. 

I don't particularly object to giving Frk a shot, but it's a bit of stretch to expect him to do much of anything. I would expect Abby, Helm, and Sheahan to all produce better than Frk given the same linemates. And oddly enough, I wouldn't expect Abby or Sheahan (both being more complimentary players) to produce much from the 4th line (and their history seems to support this). Helm maybe, depending on how his body holds up. Frk may actually be able to produce better than either in that role. 

You're talking about two different things here, so I'll try to address them both.  Frk's "skill", and his scoring rate so far in the AHL.  The two aren't really the same thing.  His scoring rate is decent enough for the AHL, but his skill is what makes me think he'd perform better on an NHL third line than the guys you mentioned.  A little like AA, who didn't really have that great of a scoring rate in the AHL when he was a top guy, but whose skillset makes him dangerous in the NHL as a complimentary piece.  I think that with his shot, size, and hands it wouldn't be unrealistic for Frk to get 12-15 goals on the 3rd line I mentioned (Neilsen and Svech).  You may have more faith in Abby, Sheahan, or Helm than I do, but I don't see them scoring that much at this point.  I don't think Frk is some star player in the making or anything, but I think he's got better finishing skills than those guys.