Griffins Calder Cup Playoffs Thread

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 minutes ago, Hockeymom1960 said:

Without ever playing a game? 

Yeah, but his presence in the lockerroom is most likely why the Griffins won, let alone made it out of the 1st round.

[mackel 675]

12 hours ago, Buppy said:

Just start watching hockey yesterday or something?

Mantha, Jensen, Ouellet, Larkin, Athanasiou, Marchenko, Pulkkinen, Sheahan, Dekeyser, Jurco, Glendening, Andersson, Smith, Tatar, Nyquist.... Literally every year we bring kids up from GR.

Lack of kids is not the reason for our decline. Nor is promoting every kid we have the solution. Nosek will almost certainly be on the team from camp (unless he's dealt, taken by Vegas, or passed up by other kids). We will likely have 2 or 3 other open spots at forward, and it's not particularly unlikely that one or more will go to another kid. Even if not, injuries happen every year, and someone will see a fair amount of games.

Who pissed in your corn flakes?

[kickazz 5,459]

14 minutes ago, mackel said:

Who pissed in your corn flakes?

No one. You were wrong and were spewing out a false narrative and he called you out on it. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by kickazz

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

21 minutes ago, kickazz said:

No one. You were wrong and were spewing out a false narrative and he called you out on it. 

Bigly fake news. Sad!

[mackel 675]

2 hours ago, kickazz said:

No one. You were wrong and were spewing out a false narrative and he called you out on it. 

What happened to this board?  How is it a false narrative?  

We have a bunch of overpaid middling players that can and should be replaced with younger, cheaper, middling with some upside.  

If you disagree fine, but the over the top melodrama is a bit much.  It's looking more and more like genuine discussion between fans has been replaced by gotcha backhanded commentary.

[brett 1,029]

interesting to see who might make the wings out of camp next season...congrats everyone. 

[kickazz 5,459]

25 minutes ago, mackel said:

What happened to this board?  How is it a false narrative?  

We have a bunch of overpaid middling players that can and should be replaced with younger, cheaper, middling with some upside.  

If you disagree fine, but the over the top melodrama is a bit much.  It's looking more and more like genuine discussion between fans has been replaced by gotcha backhanded commentary.

I mean, you're wrong. That's my point and Buppy gave you examples of how exactly you're wrong to which you reacted sensitively and you're also doing the same to my post in which I simply told you that you're wrong. 

You provided a false narrative (without any evidence) and he proved you wrong (with evidence). Plain and simple. 

So yeah, you're wrong. The message board is fine and the same as ever. Discussions without evidence get called out. Just as any discussion board out there. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by kickazz

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

20 minutes ago, mackel said:

What happened to this board?  How is it a false narrative?  

We have a bunch of overpaid middling players that can and should be replaced with younger, cheaper, middling with some upside.  

If you disagree fine, but the over the top melodrama is a bit much.  It's looking more and more like genuine discussion between fans has been replaced by gotcha backhanded commentary.

Because you're indicating that we don't bring up AHL prospects. Which is wrong. We do. Quite a bit. Many work out. Many do not.

Pittsburgh has the luxury of pairing AHL callups with Malkin and Crosby, two of the best players in the world. My guess is Rust, Sheary, etc. would look pretty forgettable next to Frans Nielsen.

[e_prime 1,936]

39 minutes ago, brett said:

interesting to see who might make the wings out of camp next season...congrats everyone. 

I don't know if he'll make the team out of camp, probably depends on his waiver situation, and how our roster situation looks more than anything else but, if we were to make the playoffs, one guy we know needs to be up is Tyler Bertuzzi.  Kid is a beast in the playoffs.

[Buppy 1,720]

4 minutes ago, mackel said:

What happened to this board?  How is it a false narrative?  

We have a bunch of overpaid middling players that can and should be replaced with younger, cheaper, middling with some upside.  

If you disagree fine, but the over the top melodrama is a bit much.  It's looking more and more like genuine discussion between fans has been replaced by gotcha backhanded commentary.

Ironic, calling my post "over the top melodrama".

For the record, I didn't mean that to be offensive. More just trying to point out that you seemed to be ignoring or unaware of certain realities. 

As for the false narrative; there is the persistent idea that young players don't get a fair chance here, always being held down by vets. Largely fueled by the perception that our kids are better than they really are and that our vets are worse, plus some confirmation bias, and a little exaggeration thrown in for good measure.

We currently have 3 open forward spots, and 3 (some might argue 4) forwards in GR that could feasibly contribute in the NHL. Our vets, regardless of how middling and overpaid you think they are, aren't blocking anything (unless you want to count Frk).

We average about 3 rookies per year seeing significant time. Assuming that continues (and why wouldn't it), we should assume that all our good kids will see significant time next year (and there will be new kids in GR that everyone will think are being held down). Just like not long ago when our overpaid middling players were themselves the kids everyone wanted. Circle of life.

When you say we need to change our culture and bring up Pittsburgh, it implies that you don't know (or are willfully ignoring) the actual facts. We had more games played by rookies this year than Pittsburgh. How exactly are they doing something we aren't (pertaining to promoting young players)? 

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

I'd be okay if Nosek is the only kid that makes the team in October. Both Svechnikov and Bertuzzi could use a little more time down in Grand Rapids. They will both be up at some point when the inevitable injuries hit. I'd also like Frk on the team, even if it's as the 13th forward. I'm also excited to see Hicketts, but he may see another full season down in GR before he gets a look.

[Nightfall 871]

7 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Yeah, but his presence in the lockerroom is most likely why the Griffins won, let alone made it out of the 1st round.

Here is a good article on it.  For those of you who aren't living in Grand Rapids or follow the Griffins, Cleary's leadership was a big reason why the Griffins did well.  Bertuzzi's development was huge thanks to him as well.  Yea, I get it, some Wings fans are upset with Cleary or hate him.  Personally, I have no problems with him because he came to Grand Rapids and did what I expected him to do.  Be a leader, work with the kids, and help bring the Calder Cup back to Grand Rapids.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2017/05/13/daniel-cleary-embraces-time-griffins-red-wings/101570054/

[Nightfall 871]

2 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I'd be okay if Nosek is the only kid that makes the team in October. Both Svechnikov and Bertuzzi could use a little more time down in Grand Rapids. They will both be up at some point when the inevitable injuries hit. I'd also like Frk on the team, even if it's as the 13th forward. I'm also excited to see Hicketts, but he may see another full season down in GR before he gets a look.

I agree with this.  I do think Bert and Svechnikov would both be best suited playing top line minutes in Grand Rapids instead of bottom 6 minutes in the NHL.  As for Frk, he really did very well for the Griffins, but I don't know if he is NHL material.  There is a reason why the Wings put him on waivers, Carolina picked him up, and then put him back on waivers for us to grab again.  We have to give him a shot, because if we don't, someone else will.  I just don't know.  He was a key piece to the Griffins this year though.  Oh, and I want another full season for Hicketts as well in the AHL.

[mackel 675]

3 hours ago, Buppy said:

Ironic, calling my post "over the top melodrama".

For the record, I didn't mean that to be offensive. More just trying to point out that you seemed to be ignoring or unaware of certain realities. 

As for the false narrative; there is the persistent idea that young players don't get a fair chance here, always being held down by vets. Largely fueled by the perception that our kids are better than they really are and that our vets are worse, plus some confirmation bias, and a little exaggeration thrown in for good measure.

We currently have 3 open forward spots, and 3 (some might argue 4) forwards in GR that could feasibly contribute in the NHL. Our vets, regardless of how middling and overpaid you think they are, aren't blocking anything (unless you want to count Frk).

We average about 3 rookies per year seeing significant time. Assuming that continues (and why wouldn't it), we should assume that all our good kids will see significant time next year (and there will be new kids in GR that everyone will think are being held down). Just like not long ago when our overpaid middling players were themselves the kids everyone wanted. Circle of life.

When you say we need to change our culture and bring up Pittsburgh, it implies that you don't know (or are willfully ignoring) the actual facts. We had more games played by rookies this year than Pittsburgh. How exactly are they doing something we aren't (pertaining to promoting young players)? 

 

This is all well and good... but let's go back to the beginning...  my original post to which you rudely replied... I, in no way said kids aren't called up.  That may be what you projected on my post but it is NOT what was written.  

7 hours ago, kickazz said:

No one. You were wrong and were spewing out a false narrative and he called you out on it. 

Their was no false narrative... Bumpy's reply projected the notion that I said we don't bring young players up.  That is not what I posted... it may be what he/she incorrectly inferred I was thinking but the post doesn't allege that at all.

I did say that we should get some of these guys (specific) on the roster to cut costs (they are cheaper than Helm, Abdel, Glendenning) and that it may change the culture of the team (which seems stagnant to me).  That's not a false narrative and certainly not the narrative Bumpy was going on half cocked about.

4 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Because you're indicating that we don't bring up AHL prospects. Which is wrong. We do. Quite a bit. Many work out. Many do not.

Pittsburgh has the luxury of pairing AHL callups with Malkin and Crosby, two of the best players in the world. My guess is Rust, Sheary, etc. would look pretty forgettable next to Frans Nielsen.

See above about the faulty assumption your first point is based on.  You make a good point about Crosby and Malkin, you could also include Guentzel.

[Buppy 1,720]

33 minutes ago, mackel said:

This is all well and good... but let's go back to the beginning...  my original post to which you rudely replied... I, in no way said kids aren't called up.  That may be what you projected on my post but it is NOT what was written.  

Their was no false narrative... Bumpy's reply projected the notion that I said we don't bring young players up.  That is not what I posted... it may be what he/she incorrectly inferred I was thinking but the post doesn't allege that at all.

I did say that we should get some of these guys (specific) on the roster to cut costs (they are cheaper than Helm, Abdel, Glendenning) and that it may change the culture of the team (which seems stagnant to me).  That's not a false narrative and certainly not the narrative Bumpy was going on half cocked about.

Umm...

On 6/13/2017 at 10:51 PM, mackel said:

It's too bad they are blocked by older, expensive versions of themselves. ...

Both my original reply and my follow-up directly refuted the argument that our kids are being blocked by vets. In case it was lost amid my half-cocked, over-the-top melodramatics, I refuted it specifically by pointing out our current roster situation and citing recent history as evidence that your concerns weren't particularly warranted.

But hey, I'll concede the 'false narrative' argument. I can't really prove you meant something. Instead I'll ask for some clarification so we can have some genuine discussion.

If you were implying that Pittsburgh is doing something differently with their prospects, what exactly do you mean? And if you weren't implying that, what was your point in bringing up Pittsburgh?

What specifically is this culture that needs to change? And if promoting kids from GR is the way to change it, how did it become stagnant when we promote kids from GR every year and why are our current kids any more likely to change it?

And if you want to argue that your point was all about cost-cutting and getting rid of players, what specifically do our kids have to do with that, since we don't have enough good kids to both fill out the rest of the roster and replace the players you mention?

[kickazz 5,459]

The Griffins win the Calder Cup and all of a sudden the AHL players have turned into NHL caliber ones that are going to get us into the playoffs. 

 

[kylee 727]

2 hours ago, kickazz said:

The Griffins win the Calder Cup and all of a sudden the AHL players have turned into NHL caliber ones that are going to get us into the playoffs. 

 

Some of them might actually. 

[e_prime 1,936]

8 hours ago, kickazz said:

The Griffins win the Calder Cup and all of a sudden the AHL players have turned into NHL caliber ones that are going to get us into the playoffs.

 

C'mon, bruh, has anyone really suggested this?

Bertuzzi-Nosek-Frk a hit with Griffins; what about the Red Wings

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2017/06/14/detroit-red-wings-prospects/395732001/

Helene St James' article in the Freep today about how the Wings should consider the Bert-Nosek-Frk line in its entirety.  (At least for exhibition games in the Fall.)  She doesn't suggest, in the slightest, that this line would do wonders for the Wings as an intact line, but rather lays out the reasons why each might get a shot at the roster in the fall. 

As we are all aware, Frk will have to go through waivers... can he earn a spot?

Quote

Asked if Frk could be an NHL player, Nelson said, “I think with the right fit. It has to be the right fit for the hockey team. But he is definitely an asset. Not too many shoot the puck like Marty Frk.”

Nosek has to go through waivers as well.  He certainly seems like he's played well enough for a spot in his stint with the Wings this year.  Especially if we lose a forward in the expansion draft.

Lil' Bert is the one who is least likely to start with the Wings in the Fall. 

Quote

Bertuzzi, 22, a bonus second-round pick from the 2013 draft (the Wings got a second second-round pick when they moved down two spots in the first round and still got their target, Anthony Mantha) can be sent down without waivers. That leaves him vulnerable to start the season, but injuries happen, and if he doesn’t make it from day one, he’s certain to top the depth chart. He showed what makes him so special again in a game the Griffins didn’t want to lose, going to the net and finding a way to score. 

Same as it always is when it comes to the prospects making the team:  Waiver eligibility, "earning a spot," injuries, and spot on the depth chart.

No hyperbole. No false narratives. Just the facts.

Edited June 15, 2017 by e_prime

[kickazz 5,459]

7 hours ago, kylee said:

Some of them might actually. 

Like who out of curiousity. Svechnikov will be a top 6 player. 

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, e_prime said:

 

C'mon, bruh, has anyone really suggested this?

Bertuzzi-Nosek-Frk a hit with Griffins; what about the Red Wings

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2017/06/14/detroit-red-wings-prospects/395732001/

Helene St James' article in the Freep today about how the Wings should consider the Bert-Nosek-Frk line in its entirety.  (At least for exhibition games in the Fall.)  She doesn't suggest, in the slightest, that this line would do wonders for the Wings as an intact line, but rather lays out the reasons why each might get a shot at the roster in the fall. 

As we are all aware, Frk will have to go through waivers... can he earn a spot?

Nosek has to go through waivers as well.  He certainly seems like he's played well enough for a spot in his stint with the Wings this year.  Especially if we lose a forward in the expansion draft.

Lil' Bert is the one who is least likely to start with the Wings in the Fall. 

Same as it always is when it comes to the prospects making the team:  Waiver eligibility, "earning a spot," injuries, and spot on the depth chart.

No hyperbole. No false narratives. Just the facts.

They are going to be 2-3 who make the roster at some point... As 4th line players at best. Except Svech. But those 4th line guys aren't going to be the ones turning us into a contender; they're simply going to be.... 4th line players. 

The only one on the roster that will likely be significantly impactul for this team down the road (who knows when) is probably Svech. Everyone else is a spare part replacing a more expensive spare part (Sheahan, Glendening, Miller).

Frk is a big question mark did well in the AHL, but the two NHL games he played he was terrible. Could be different this year, I don't know. I don't think anyone knows.

[e_prime 1,936]

Never suggested that these guys are future top line guys, but I'm gonna get to the crux of my argument about guys like Nosek, Lil' Bert, and Frk (to a lesser extent) real quick-like...

You don't build a playoff team with only first line players.  Do we need to concentrate on the top-six? Drafting. Developing. Trading-for.  Absolutely.  Should we just poo-poo any bright spots in the bottom six?  No way.

 

[kickazz 5,459]

No and I think the guys you mentioned will be great 4th line players for us. I've even advocated for them being up here instead of Glendening, Sheahan (I want him picked up by Vegas). But the Calder cup win in no way indicates we will somehow turn into a playoff contender because these players are champs. I'm not saying you implied that I'm saying a few people are hyping it up that way online (facebook, twitter etc)

Edited June 15, 2017 by kickazz

[Keep Your Stick On the Ice 67]

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/don-t-assume-a-calder-cup-means-a-stanley-cup-is-soon-to-follow

[kipwinger 8,495]

On 6/7/2017 at 3:51 PM, Buppy said:

What I mean is it isn't really accurate to say he hasn't been given a chance just because he hasn't been given any NHL games. 

What I'm saying is that the main reason people are considering Frk a "skill" player is because he's currently scoring at a decent rate in the AHL, and he doesn't really do anything else. Conversely we don't consider Abby, Helm, and Sheahan to be skilled because we've been measuring them relative to NHL players for years. 

If 20yo Helm and 20yo Frk were both in GR, both coming off good junior careers, and Helm put up 16g, 31p in 67 games while Frk put up 3g, 12p in 50...I don't think it's a stretch to say we'd think of Helm as the more skilled player. 

Optimism on Frk aside, I don't quite understand your pessimism regarding the others. 12-15 goals is pretty much what Helm and Sheahan have already proven they can do in a similar role. Abby is a little different, as he's been better than that in a top role, but also worse at times in both top-6 and bottom-6 roles. While I can see some reason for skepticism, it doesn't make sense to me that you'd be that pessimistic about their potential in a scoring role while also thinking they'd be productive on the 4th line. Maybe you just mean relative to the poor production we got from the 4th line this year, but the way you stated it seemed to imply that you thought a Helm/Sheahan-Nosek-Abby line would actually be good.

This was exactly what I meant.  If we're going to have one "defensive/shutdown" line, I'd rather that line be made up of Helm/Sheahan, Abby, and Nosek, than Glendening, Ott, Miller, or whomever.  They'd be just as good defensively, and probably a little better offensively and in terms of possession.  And if a 3rd line of Neilsen, Frk, and Svechnikov could give you the same production or better then it's a relative gain.  I definitely didn't mean to sound pessimistic, I think it would give us a better 3rd and 4th line.

[kylee 727]

15 hours ago, kickazz said:

Like who out of curiousity. Svechnikov will be a top 6 player. 

 

I'd want to give Bertuzzi, Nosek and Frk some extended looks. IDK about others however. Grand Rapids had a good mix of vets in the line up too this year.